Pedophiles waiting in line....

[betsy]

As has been said over and over, there is no monolithic gay rights "Movement".

"ILGA-Europe is the European Region of the International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA) .

It is a non-governmental umbrella organisation which represents its members, principally organisations of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender persons, at the European level. Its membership consists of some 200 organisations from across Europe.

ILGA-Europe enjoys participative status at the Council of Europe and receives financial support from the European Community. It is a member of the Platform of European Social NGOs. ILGA-Europe was established as a separate region of the ILGA in 1996. ILGA itself was founded in 1978. It has an office in Brussels, and seven staff members."

This information was taken from ILGA Europe website.

[betsy]

As has been said over and over, there is no monolithic gay rights "Movement". All you are doing here is what you've been accussed of doing all along: create the connection between the broad and diverese aims of the gay community (such as equality, including the equalization of age of consent laws) with a small, fringe group that may or may not even exist anymore. So stow the sanctimonious claptrap and false piety. No one is buying what you're selling.

"26/01/2006

"Apparently Iran, which President Bush has deemed part of the 'Axis of Evil,' is a suitable partner when it comes to discriminating against gay people."

— Matt Foreman, executive director, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force

The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force today denounced the United States' vote against two gay rights organizations' applications to join the United Nations Economic and Social Council. The United States joined the repressive, anti-gay regimes of Iran, Zimbabwe, China, Cameroon and others in voting against even granting a hearing to the application of the International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA) and the Danish Association of Gays and Lesbians (Landsforeningen for Bosser og Lesbiske "

http://www.ilga-europe.org/europe/guide/co..._united_nations

For a "small fringe group that may or may not even exist anymore", this one not only boast an umbrella....but still very much moving in the higher circles.

[Black Dog]

Congratulations: you've successfuly proven there's such a thing as ILGA (a point which was never in contention: if you knew how to read, you'd realize the "small-fringe group etc." I was refering to was NAMBLA). Now, where is it written that ILGA is the official spokesgroup for the Gay Rights Movement you keep referring to?

[betsy]

Congratulations: you've successfuly proven there's such a thing as ILGA (a point which was never in contention: if you knew how to read, you'd realize the "small-fringe group etc." I was refering to was NAMBLA). Now, where is it written that ILGA is the official spokesgroup for the Gay Rights Movement you keep referring to?

It is fighting for gay rights, right? Most Gay groups are fighting for gay rights, right? Hence it is called Gay Rights Movement!

Not that there's anything wrong with having a Movement fighting for rights. Feminists do!

But do these Movements really reflect the desire of the majority of population they're supposed to be representing? The community may agree and disagree on varying issues.

I know that I do not agree with some of the radical Feminists' contentions....I tend to agree more with another women's group called REAL Women.

That's why I made an example of the group of homosexuals who took out a whole page ad supporting to preserve the traditional meaning of marriage. There are homosexuals who have conservative values!

[Argus]

Gay (male) culture idealizes very young-seeming men, very slim, very trim, hairless, smooth, pretty... getting the idea?

Again, completely unlike "heterosexual" culture's obessession with, uh, youth, slimness etc...

And if, as you say, "most adult men might look at a particularly pretty 16 year old in a revealing outfit, but wouldn't seriously consider doing anything with one, much less a fourteen year old, legal or not," then why your outrage over the age of consent issue? Teenage girls are safe as houses. Except for the fact that more than a quarter of female rape victims are between 12 and 17.

And most of them are victims of date rape, or rape by teenagers. I'm not saying that adult men don't rape teenage girls. I'm saying the rate at which homosexual men molest teenage boys is vastly higher, and this desire for very young men, or boys, if you will, is a part of the gay sexual culture no one ever talks about. It is certainly not a part of gay sexual culture anyone should be celebrating, much less take pride in, and one the gay community ought to be addressing. It is small wonder NAMBLA exists, for it's merely gay sexual culture taken to a new and distinctly less moral level.

[Argus]

First, young women are targetted as often as young men. The targetting of young men just gets more media attention these days. Both young men and women need more protection from such people.

Perhaps because the targeting of teenage girls is usually by teenage boys, not adults, as opposed to the targeting of teenage boys by homosexual men.

And the only connection between the various GRM organizations and pedophilic organizations such as NAMBLA is a tenuous one at best. It is based upon NAMBLA believing that, the desire of young children is a sexual preference the same as being gay or heterosexual, and that on that basis laws abrdging it are unconstitutional and they should be able to engage in a relationship with and marry without persecution. It was NAMBLA and anti-GRM groups that brought gays into this discussion.

I disagree in that I believe the gay prediliction for extremely young lovers certainly has a place in any conversation related to homosexual abuse of young boys.

People can have all the suspicions they want about whether or not I am right about this. But from personal experience, the average gay person lives by the same morals that the rest of us do, with one major exception that all of us can guess.

I don't believe this is true. Look, men are sluts. We all know it. However, women control sex in the heterosexual world, and even a woman who is called a slut isn't nearly as cheap a whore as your average man. But what would the heterosexual culture be like if women were as slutty as men? Well, it would look like gay male culture, of course, where both sides are sluts. Needless to say, this results in a culture of multiple lovers and one night stands, of bath houses, and perversions and extremly easy sex (yes, I'm jealous). Gays identify themselves primarily by their sexual preference. That means their sex life has an enormous amount to do with how they see themselves and what their values are. I don't think you can properly suggest there's no difference between homo and heterosexuals except for their particular choice of what gender their partners are. There's a lot more to it than that.

[gerryhatrick]

Have you guys heard of NAMBLA?

National Man-Boy Love Association. This group supports and root for the triumph of the Gay Rights Movement, for the simple reason that once the can gets opened, anything goes.

This will prove to be a very controversial discussion....and I'm already bracing myself of getting labeled, "homophobe!"

Is there an association for Man-girl love? Oops, hope I don't get called a heterophobe!

You're initial assumption is a little lacking, so I don't see why you'd believe a "controversial" discussion would ensue. Maybe an argumentative one. You pretty much made a troll post. Have fun.

[betsy]

It was NAMBLA and anti-GRM groups that brought gays into this discussion.

People can have all the suspicions they want about whether or not I am right about this. But from personal experience, the average gay person lives by the same morals that the rest of us do, with one major exception that all of us can guess. They think that pedophiles are as wrong as the rest of us. The position that they're sympathetic to NAMBLA's cause is just baseless.

Nevertheless, NAMBLA is still haunting and hurting not only the Movement....but the gay community as a whole.

Anti-GRM groups and NAMBLA may have brought this to the table......but unfortunately, we cannot deny that it was ILGA who provided the ammunition.

The Gay Community must do more in correcting the terrible mistake made by ILGA in allowing NAMBLA to become a member of the group.

This excerpt was taken from EGALE's site. It is an example of suspicion at work.

Press Release

November 15, 2004

Surrey School Board Fails to Provide Safe Space

B.C. Human Rights Tribunal hearing starts today

Vancouver—Today the B.C.

Human Rights Tribunal will begin its three-week hearing into a complaint against the Surrey School Board by local moms Carol Pegura and Kim Forster. The hearing, which takes place at 605 Robson Street, 11th floor, in Vancouver, results from events that occurred at a school board meeting in June 2003. At that meeting, repeated comments were made linking same-sex couples to pedophilia, AIDS, and other sexually transmitted diseases. The board failed to take any action to maintain a safe and respectful atmosphere at the meeting.

“School boards have a responsibility to ensure their meetings and their schools are welcoming and safe places for everybody, including same-sex couples and their children,” said John Guiney, Co-chair of Egale’s Education Committee. “It is reprehensible for a publicly-funded school board to condone, by their silence, comments that poison the atmosphere.”

http://www.egale.ca/index.asp?lang=E&menu=2004&item=1110

[betsy]

The Gay Community must do more in correcting the terrible mistake made by ILGA in allowing NAMBLA to become a member of the group.

Words of condemnation for NAMBLA is not enough. The Gay Groups can do more than that.

It is up to the Gay Community to take action.

[Black Dog]

It is fighting for gay rights, right? Most Gay groups are fighting for gay rights, right? Hence it is called Gay Rights Movement!

Not that there's anything wrong with having a Movement fighting for rights. Feminists do!

Th epoint is these movements are made up of many diverse groups with dissimilar and even conflicting aims. There's no more one gay or feminist "movement": as there is one Christian church.

And most of them are victims of date rape, or rape by teenagers. I'm not saying that adult men don't rape teenage girls. I'm saying the rate at which homosexual men molest teenage boys is vastly higher, and this desire for very young men, or boys, if you will, is a part of the gay sexual culture no one ever talks about. It is certainly not a part of gay sexual culture anyone should be celebrating, much less take pride in, and one the gay community ought to be addressing. It is small wonder NAMBLA exists, for it's merely gay sexual culture taken to a new and distinctly less moral level.

I find it telling you offered no statistics or other data to back up the claim that "the rate at which homosexual men molest teenage boys is vastly higher."

Perhaps because the targeting of teenage girls is usually by teenage boys, not adults, as opposed to the targeting of teenage boys by homosexual men

That's pretty misleading. I expect you're probably lumping 21 year old sleeping with 17 year olds in with the common image of the aging pederast. Again: no evidence or suppport.

Nevertheless, NAMBLA is still haunting and hurting not only the Movement....but the gay community as a whole.

Yeah: because right-wing nitwits like you continue to drag its out as though it was an organizationwith any influence (tell me: how many members do they have?) or emblematic of the gay community as a whole. A similar approach would be to bring up polygamist groups like the Mormons of Bountiful, BC as representative of the Christian "Movement".

[Spike22]

Great what the hell else is out there. Welcome to Canada the land of the fags, lost souls and assorted other goofs, oddballs and freaks of nature. Good god and this is supposedly the best country on earth to live - makes one wonder what is going on in the rest of the planet...

[betsy]

It is fighting for gay rights, right? Most Gay groups are fighting for gay rights, right? Hence it is called Gay Rights Movement!

Not that there's anything wrong with having a Movement fighting for rights. Feminists do!

Th epoint is these movements are made up of many diverse groups with dissimilar and even conflicting aims. There's no more one gay or feminist "movement": as there is one Christian church.

But the one that had had the clout to have sat as a consultative voice in the UN ultimately spoke for every diverse groups...whether they have dissimilar and conflicting aims! Globally!

Why do you think we now have SSM? It just suddenly came down from the sky and hit EGALE in the forehead and suddenly the lightbulb of an idea just lit up?

[betsy]

Yeah: because right-wing nitwits like you continue to drag its out as though it was an organizationwith any influence (tell me: how many members do they have?) or emblematic of the gay community as a whole. A similar approach would be to bring up polygamist groups like the Mormons of Bountiful, BC as representative of the Christian "Movement".

"Amendments to Canadian Law to Prevent Pederasty Likely to be Defeated by MPs Wednesday

Pro-Family groups will note individual MP votes on 2 items raising age of consent for sex

OTTAWA, September 27, 2005

Even "pro-gay" feminists have called on gay groups to distance themselves from efforts to lower the age of consent. Writing in the UK Guardian newspaper in 2001, Julie Blindel points out, "If gay men are going to, on the one hand, campaign for sexual access to younger and younger boys, but bleat about public perceptions of them as a league of child abusers, is it any wonder that the whole thing is such a mess?" Blindel concludes, "If gay men are serious about distancing themselves from child sexual abuse, then it's up to them to make some real efforts to join forces against this gross violation." (see Blindel's piece here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...3,4145251,00.... )

The IATC's Carlin concurs, "If gays are going to campaign (by way of zero change), for sexual access to young boys, they may lose the right in the eyes of many people to complain about the perceptions associated with their choice".

A poll conducted in 2002 found that 80% of Canadians believe that the federal government should raise the age of consent from 14 years to at least 16 years"

jhw

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/sep/05092705.html

Can we please stop with the personal attacks and name-calling? Let's try to keep this discussion as civil as possible?

[Black Dog]

Great what the hell else is out there. Welcome to Canada the land of the fags, lost souls and assorted other goofs, oddballs and freaks of nature. Good god and this is supposedly the best country on earth to live - makes one wonder what is going on in the rest of the planet...

Well, if you wanty to leave the country (or indeed, the planet), feel free. No great loss.

But the one that had had the clout to have sat as a consultative voice in the UN ultimately spoke for every diverse groups...whether they have dissimilar and conflicting aims! Globally!

ILGA had "consultive status" with the UN. All that means is that are able to attend conferences and meetings in support of their particular cause. That does not make them a duly authorized representative of the world's gay community. It's arguable whetehr or not that gives them much "clout" at all (for a little perspective: there are 2,719 NGO's with consultive status).

Why do you think we now have SSM? It just suddenly came down from the sky and hit EGALE in the forehead and suddenly the lightbulb of an idea just lit up?

It started, as most social movements do, at the grassroots level, with individuals: it was not decreed from on high by some all-powerful Gay Agenda Organization.

[betsy]

Don't you think the most logical solution for GRM to prove strongly that Man-Boy love is not part of the gay culture is to...

...lobby for the age of consent to be raised HIGHER?

The Gay Community should...and MUST pressure their lobbying groups that this time around, they should stand alongside Heterosexuals and 80% of the population who want to see the age of consent to be raised to 16!

EGALE must stand on its own...and not be influenced by ILGA whose name is tarnished, no matter what!

Be the first Gay Group to stand alongside heterosexuals!

[betsy]

[

It started, as most social movements do, at the grassroots level, with individuals: it was not decreed from on high by some all-powerful Gay Agenda Organization.

Care to provide a link to that info? Or any source to substantiate that? It's just too hard to believe...

[geoffrey]

Betsy, I admire you for taking on this argument so long. I really have never seen someone sustain a position so adamently. You've brought to the table tons of sources, some from even the other side of the argument supporting your claims.

Your right, but your going to have a hard time convincing these people so set in their support of special interest agendas.

And Black Dog, egale and ILGA are giant powerful gay power agendas. It's all about power, I'd wouldn't be suprised if you looked inside these organizations, you'll see people pushing personal agendas in the name of a minority group.

[betsy]

Betsy, I admire you for taking on this argument so long. I really have never seen someone sustain a position so adamently. You've brought to the table tons of sources, some from even the other side of the argument supporting your claims.

Your right, but your going to have a hard time convincing these people so set in their support of special interest agendas.

And Black Dog, egale and ILGA are giant powerful gay power agendas. It's all about power, I'd wouldn't be suprised if you looked inside these organizations, you'll see people pushing personal agendas in the name of a minority group.

Thank you Geoffrey.

I know that it is almost impossible....but still remaining hopeful.

I guess this is not the right time to ask them to give back the original marriage definition?

Just kidding....

[Black Dog]

Don't you think the most logical solution for GRM to prove strongly that Man-Boy love is not part of the gay culture is to...

...lobby for the age of consent to be raised HIGHER?

You haven't offered much proof hat there's any movement afOot to lower thE age of consent. Most mainstream gay organizations' stance on the issue is that, regardless of what the age is, the AoC for "gay" sex should be the same as hetero sex (SOMETHING YOU'VE FAILED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THROUGHOUT THIS THREAD).

The Gay Community should...and MUST pressure their lobbying groups that this time around, they should stand alongside Heterosexuals and 80% of the population who want to see the age of consent to be raised to 16!

Given your glaring ignorance of gay groups and the gay community, I don't think you're in a position to tell them what to do.

Care to provide a link to that info? Or any source to substantiate that? It's just too hard to believe...

Harder to believe than an International Homo Conspiracy?

Betsy, I admire you for taking on this argument so long. I really have never seen someone sustain a position so adamently...

In the face of every counter-argument and refutation of her "facts". Yeah. Admirable.

And Black Dog, egale and ILGA are giant powerful gay power agendas. It's all about power, I'd wouldn't be suprised if you looked inside these organizations, you'll see people pushing personal agendas in the name of a minority group.

You fine petty power politics in every organization. What's your point?

[A Hermit]

I've repeated several times that NOT ALL GAYS are pedophiles.

Reminds of the Anti-semite who protests that "some of my best friends are Jewish"

Look, there is no more reason for you to go prattling on about NAMBLA then there is for me to point out the Ku Klux Klan considers itself a Christian organization and demand that the local Mennonite church do more to disassociate themselves from the Klan. It's simply ludicrous to associate those two groups, but that's exactly what you are doing here.

The problem with discussions like this is the not so subtle implication that gays are somehow more responsible for dealing with the problem than the rest of us. Why should that be? Why should EGALE be amy more responsible for deouncing NAMBLA than the Catholic Church is?

I call it like I see it betsy, and this kind of false association is the product of bigotry, plain and simple. Get the beam out of your eye and take a good long look in the mirror.

[Spike22]

Blackdog your a gay old fella aren't ya? Standin' up fer gay rights and parading it as a social movement. A bowel movement maybe.

Bartholemew : (spoken with a gay lisp)Bruce I found a new way to do it.

Bruce: No shit?

Bartholemew: Nope, not a trace.

What happened to the good old days when the closet doors were securely locked and we didn't have to see the gay's prancing on the streets and boob tube.

I can imagine back in the 30's when I was young if this gay movement had taken place what would have happened?

[Shakeyhands]

Well, I think Spike that if you were exposed to it from back in the 30's that you probably wouldn't make such offensive comments now? What do you think?

[betsy]

I've repeated several times that NOT ALL GAYS are pedophiles.

Reminds of the Anti-semite who protests that "some of my best friends are Jewish"

I don't know what you're on about. In fact, none of my best friends are homosexuals. The fact remains that NOT ALL GAYS are pedophiles...and it has nothing to do with my friendship.

[Argus]

And most of them are victims of date rape, or rape by teenagers. I'm not saying that adult men don't rape teenage girls. I'm saying the rate at which homosexual men molest teenage boys is vastly higher, and this desire for very young men, or boys, if you will, is a part of the gay sexual culture no one ever talks about. It is certainly not a part of gay sexual culture anyone should be celebrating, much less take pride in, and one the gay community ought to be addressing. It is small wonder NAMBLA exists, for it's merely gay sexual culture taken to a new and distinctly less moral level.

I find it telling you offered no statistics or other data to back up the claim that "the rate at which homosexual men molest teenage boys is vastly higher."

Why is that telling? I already pointed out that what one finds on the internet is placed there by advocacy groups. There is a ton of "pro-gay" information out there, but that's not likely to contain anything critical. The critical information, obviously, would be on 'anti-gay" sites, generally religious or hate sites, and I rather doubt you'd have much use for such cites.

But when was the last time you heard of a "ring" of child molesters broken up who weren't targeting boys? When was the last major scandal involving institutional molestation, be it by coaches, priests, teachers, scout leaders, or whomever, which wasn't targeting young boys? I've already posted statistics which have shown that virtually all the victims of priest are boys. The victims of the more famous incidents, such as at Mount Cashel, were boys.

Gays have a thing for young ones. Anyone who knows anything about gay male sexual culture knows that.

[betsy]

I've repeated several times that NOT ALL GAYS are pedophiles.

Reminds of the Anti-semite who protests that "some of my best friends are Jewish"

Look, there is no more reason for you to go prattling on about NAMBLA then there is for me to point out the Ku Klux Klan considers itself a Christian organization and demand that the local Mennonite church do more to disassociate themselves from the Klan. It's simply ludicrous to associate those two groups, but that's exactly what you are doing here.

The problem with discussions like this is the not so subtle implication that gays are somehow more responsible for dealing with the problem than the rest of us. Why should that be? Why should EGALE be amy more responsible for deouncing NAMBLA than the Catholic Church is?

I call it like I see it betsy, and this kind of false association is the product of bigotry, plain and simple. Get the beam out of your eye and take a good long look in the mirror.

Yes you're right. The concern should be no more with the gay community than with the community in general. In fact your being gay is irrelevant to me and to most of society.

The point is your sub-culture is associated, whether you like it or not, with NAMBLA. The homosexual community is part of the problem - it's the entire society's problem...and it's the entire society's responsibility to solve it...with or without the support of the homosexual community.