THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM

[JerrySeinfeld]

Follow the link and I look forward to any rebuttals...

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

[Blackguard]

Wow. I had never thought about it that way. I had an immediate knee jerk reaction to the intrusion of Charia Law in Canada, and felt releived when the Nationnal Assembly of Quebec took a formal stand against it.

I was thinking also about the rise of China in terms of demography. In a couple of years there will be an enormous number of Chinese man but many many less Chinese women because of the birth control policy that only let couples have one child, and most couples decided to only keep their sons.

We better start adopting a lot of Chinese baby girls

[theloniusfleabag]

This article is mostly drivel. There are some points worth considering, but they easily get lost in a long tirade that is self-contradictory and misleading. Some might even go so far as to say it is a typical Jewish ploy to have everyone else see the Jewish enemy as their own, so you will fight their battles for them....Mind you, I don't believe stuff like that, so I wouldn't say it.

Take multiculturalism. The great thing about multiculturalism is that it doesn't involve knowing anything about other cultures--the capital of Bhutan, the principal exports of Malawi, who cares? All it requires is feeling good about other cultures. It's fundamentally a fraud, and I would argue was subliminally accepted on that basis.

Fuck Mark Steyn. I embrace multi-culturalism, and I try to learn as much as I can. I love ethnic food, clothing, and have made lots of friends that have taught me some of the languages of Cantonese, Greek, Punjabi, German and a little bit of Vietnamese. If he can't be bothered, or thinks that I shouldn't (or don't), tough toenails. I don't care what he thinks.

The design flaw of the secular social-democratic state is that it requires a religious-society birthrate to sustain it.

Well, it seemed good when the Western religions dominated by 'birth-rate default'...now, Steyn seems to be knocking it.

The thing that has made America rich and powerful, that being secular idol and Mammon worship, is looking to be it's downfall...fitting, really.

The entire article is based on sophistry.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Follow the link and I look forward to any rebuttals...

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

No rebuttal from this end. It was classic Steyn ... bang on in every sentence.

Thanks for the great read!

[arif]

The article is nonsense,

but I like to think I could find merit in anything so,

multiculturalism has it's drawbacks, mostly when it is considered superficially the way this article has done. Years ago, I wanted to start a multicultural club at my university, because there were a lot of cultural clubs but I knew plenty of people that were interested in culture but weren't associated particularly with any of the clubs.

Plus, I wanted to be able to get people from all of the cultural clubs together. Then, a friend said, you should call in intercultural, not multicultural. "multi" stands for a situation when there is a pluralism, but each sector of this remains equal but separate, "inter" stands for a situation where pluralism allows for mixing and integration, which I believe can occur without losing identity. The situation at the university was already multicultural, our club was to allow for it to be intercultural. We've done the same thing in our interprofessional program, instead of calling it multi, where each profession would take a course together, whereas inter means each profession contributes their perspective and the students learn from one another. The multi course, people from different backgrounds just happen to coexist in the class on a subject of common interest, whereas in inter, the subject itself is calling on the people to solve problems using the different perspectives.

If a Muslim from a really patriarchal culture were to come to Canada with really sexist views, but through integration they, or at least, their children, adopt more equal views, that's great. The problem with cultural relativity, is that it is almost as if nothing in a culture can be wrong, thus nothing should be changed, and we should almost have a Star Trek like imperative not to influence people. If a Muslim family comes to Canada, and shares the warmth, humility and great sense of humour of their culture, and a Western family picks up on these things and it influences their kids, that's fantastic.

We're not much at risk having found freedoms, equality of gender, and tolerance to be influence by values that are much less good for us. Yet, we can be influenced by values in other cultures that we do appreciate. I have students who traveled to Africa this summer, and they've described the people they encountered as the bravest, strongest people they ever met. They still ran into aspects of the culture they couldn't accept. As students in their role as health workers new to the place, it wasn't their place to change those things, by appropriateness they had to adopt some cultural relativity in approach. But on a global scale, I feel that integration will result in the best of all cultures, group identities such as "western", will retain their heritage and identity, but hopefully we can move away from less productive cultural baggage, just as others will have to to improve the quality of life of their people.

That article sounds to me like Public Enemy's "fear of a black planet". "fear of a muslim planet?" PE was talking about an irrational fear that racial mixing will result in a world with all shades of brown but no white, since when white and non-white mix, the kid isn't considered white.

By the way, there was strong opposition from within the Muslim community of having Sharia law in Ontario. And no, we don't have to accept everything proposed as a cultural or religious right from any group.

I would say fear is the greatest threat to western civilization.

ARif

[Slavik44]

I must admit it was a little long for my tastes, so I jsut read the beginign and skimmed through the rest. And like last time an article was posted by Mark Steyn I am afraid I must disagree with him, yet again.

The last to articles someone has clipped from this guy, both discuss the impending doom of the Western World, perhpas that is his theme his forte, his passion in life to predict a sunken ship at the foot of every iceberg. If he was taken more seriously and was more respected he may go down as the Malthus of our generation, but he is gonna have to work on the whole impending doom thing.

You see Steyn is wrong, he is wrong on one fundemental fact, he under-estimates the power of western culture, he claims we are not like the shakers, he is right, unlike the shakers western culture is appealing, I find it hard to lable a group of people that doesn't have sex as anything more than peculiar.

The problem is how do you defien western culture, who is western? Infact is western culture like binary? Is it Black in white? is it yes or no? Can we walk around and label people into two groups, western and non-western? I belive the answer can be nothing but a resounding no.

At some point in time, no one was western, at some point in time western belief did not exist, and when it did start to come about, it was certainly not under a big poof of smoke and an oh look here is modern Britain. Western Culture evolved and it evolved slowly, to the point that we would not describe a politician or businessmen from the 1700's as fully Western, it would be absured laughable at best. The westernization of the west has taken a long time, it has had its truggles but it has happened, but it has happened at a slow rate, taking hundreds of years of progression. But as it advanced we added people, added countries to the western world. In fact we need to look only recently at the death of communism to see some of our latest members, European countries yes, but European countries at one point under the darkest shackles of communism, the transition has not been smoothe and may not be fully complete according to some people. But you would be nothing more than a fool to deny that Ukraine is more westernized today than it was 30 years ago. Do these former Socialist republics not count? Are they not becoming westernized?

In fact Mark Steyn Contradicts himself, in one paragraph he talks about muslims fightign westerners, Muslims fighting westerners, where? In Russia, twenty or thiry years ago, you would woudl be fighting commies, you would be fightign the exact opposite of westerners. How western russia is I cannto testify to such a fact, but if Mark Steyn can call them western then I adopt the russian people into western society, a feat un-thinkable only decades ago.

From the darkest corners of the cold war, Western Society has apparently, by admission of Mark Steyn, adopted into its litter a child, a son named Russia. By admission of Mark Steyn we have westernized the Iron Curtain. Apparently Russia is dieing(the affects of communism, not islam), but 30 years ago, Russia was our enemy, today according to Mark Steyn Russia is our friend. If russia losses one person we have lost one person, but in 1991 the Soviet Union, gave us more than a hundred million people. By his own addmission he is bitching about the loss of one, that until recently was never ours. He is Bitching about the loss of one, while ignore the gain of millions.

Thinking about gain and about western culture, and My belief that it comes on a sliding scale, I am startign tot hink about who the ultimate westerner is. Perhaps Churchill? Roosevelt? Martin Luther King? (oh he wasn't white) Kennedy then? How about a Canadian Pearson? I am going to say no, no, no, no, and no, who then. Well none other than Gandhi, yeah I kow he wasn't white, but thats my point. Western culture is not White Culture, It is hard anywhere in the world to find many strict adherrents to the belief in peace, love, and the pursuit of hapiness...but we can fidn people that are workign towards these idealic beliefs, and we can find them all over the world, apart of many different ethnic backgrounds and skin colours. No the Japanese busnisman is not American, and the south korean houswife, is not America, and india although they have done well with female empoymerent and have worked towars relagating the caste system to a back seat...we cannot ignore the plight of the outcastes the untouchables, we cannto ignore the corupt businessmen either. But in anylizing thsi we cannot ignore the fact that during the industrial revolution, problems of similar magnitudes did occur. I suppose the sayign holds that the industrial revolution was the deadliest revolution the world ever fought, and it is a battle we continue to fight.

Some may argue that my comparison to the industrial revolution is unfair, because in other parts of the world they are not following the path Great Britain took, they are skipping it, the order is different. But in defense of these countries we must recognize that outside of a select few, not very many countries followed the exact order Britain followed, Germany although it became highly industrialized, did so under heavy government control, it was government sponsored industrialization. After many years Germany has become fully westernized, it took along tiem to get all the values right and the nut cases thrown out but it happened. In the year 2006 I am un-willing to call Germany non-western because it become a western country in a method that is contrary to that of Great Britian. I am not so concerned about the method so much as I am the final result, Westernization. A result that I am sure will and is happening around the world. We can talk until we are blue in the face about resistance against western culture but we cannot ignore that where there is resistance there is also acceptence. It is hard to resist something you have no knowledge of, so while there is resistance, we must not that there is acceptance, where one brother resists the other accepts or strives to accept. Where one uncle forms a fundementalist terrorist organization his niece poses in a bathing suite.

We are iimpatient people, perhpas that is western culture. But we must not in our desire for progress ignore the fact that it is happening, slowly but surely it is happening and it is spreading. We cannot ignore that it took along time for America, For Britain, For France, For Germany to get to the points they are at now, it took along time and it will take along time before others fully join, but I belive that evidence exists so that we can say they are slowly sliding our way. It is not that we are getting exhausted, but that western culture is more powerfull than any Nuclear arsenal and more bennificial. This is not a millitary war, we may get exhausted with wars, but our culture is even greater than our people and it is relentless. Just like a millitary victory in Vietnam was not neccasary for the fall of communism, a millitary victory in Iraq is not neccasary for the fall of regressive fundementalism, because the grass truly is greener. Because the fundementalists are actually fighting a defensive war, a war to retain, a war to stop.

So where was Mark Steyn right? When he said we spend so much time worrying about the wrong things. We are worryign about a regressive belief that is fightign a lossign battle. When we should be worried about helping people in foriegn countries undergoe the transition that is occuring. We are wastign tiem predictign our doom and missing an excellent oppurtunity to help spread our glory, Mark Steyn on that point was right, unfortunately he was also guilty.

[Biblio Bibuli]

You see Steyn is wrong, he is wrong on one fundemental fact, he under-estimates the power of western culture, ....

Eating pork is a HUGE part of western culture, but I see in today's Van. Sun paper that the age-old staple of the French ... pork soup ... is being banned right across the land from their soup kitchens that feed the hungry. Yet, foul smelling stinky mutton is allowed. That makes me angry. VERY angry.

I'd rather die than eat mutton!

But you go right ahead, Slavik! Bon appetit!!!

[Biblio Bibuli]

I'd rather die than eat mutton!

Unless it's smothered in exotic Indian or Middle Eastern spices.

But the reality is with enough fragrant spices you could eat a stinky shoe too.

[YankAbroad]

the smarter Islamists have figured out. They know they can never win on the battlefield, but they figure there's an excellent chance they can drag things out until Western civilization collapses in on itself and Islam inherits by default.

So when can we count on Mark Steyn and other neo-conservatives supporting fast-tracked asylum for the most vulnerable victims of these fundamentalist regimes, such as Iranian gays and lesbians, and supporting a free and liberal society which repudiates fundamentalist oppressions simply by noting that every citizen receives equal rights and responsibilities under the law?

Ooops, are those crickets I am hearing?

The reality is, whenever warmongers "explain" to us who we're fighting, it's because who we're fighting isn't clear. It's not going to be breeding ourselves into poverty which will rescue western society from the threats of religious fundamentalism and associated terrorism -- it will be redoubling our commitment to the rule of law, the rights of the individual (i.e. no secret wiretaps of other citizens or putting the legal rights of permanent minorities up to popular votes), and REAL liberty, which is the right to be left to one's own devices in peace.

So far, the neoconservatives haven't realized this -- which makes them the willing useful idiots who the jihadists require in order to maintain their own delusional God complex of "being important enough to the west to wage war against." Take away that delusion of grandeur, that "great struggle," and their entire thesis crumbles to fine dust.

[JerrySeinfeld]

the smarter Islamists have figured out. They know they can never win on the battlefield, but they figure there's an excellent chance they can drag things out until Western civilization collapses in on itself and Islam inherits by default.

So when can we count on Mark Steyn and other neo-conservatives supporting fast-tracked asylum for the most vulnerable victims of these fundamentalist regimes, such as Iranian gays and lesbians, and supporting a free and liberal society which repudiates fundamentalist oppressions simply by noting that every citizen receives equal rights and responsibilities under the law?

Ooops, are those crickets I am hearing?

The reality is, whenever warmongers "explain" to us who we're fighting, it's because who we're fighting isn't clear. It's not going to be breeding ourselves into poverty which will rescue western society from the threats of religious fundamentalism and associated terrorism -- it will be redoubling our commitment to the rule of law, the rights of the individual (i.e. no secret wiretaps of other citizens or putting the legal rights of permanent minorities up to popular votes), and REAL liberty, which is the right to be left to one's own devices in peace.

So far, the neoconservatives haven't realized this -- which makes them the willing useful idiots who the jihadists require in order to maintain their own delusional God complex of "being important enough to the west to wage war against." Take away that delusion of grandeur, that "great struggle," and their entire thesis crumbles to fine dust.

Hold up - I see everyone automatically polarizing to their respective previously held views. The main point about multiculturalism is that it's own "tolerance" risks cannibalizing it's other closely held values.

example: if the "tolerant" society of Australia chooses to allow muslim men to beat their wives in respect of "traditions and habits", the lefty tolerant society is faced with seeing two very highly held ideals clashing: tolerance of minorities versus championing womens rights.

see the link:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=20034

It's already happening in Australia - and Steyn merely sees this trend continuing as our societies become more and more muslim.

He also points out the simple idea that many socialist, "tolerant" societies with no backbone can't last much more than another generation, and that many supporters of socialist ideals can't see past a generation.

[YankAbroad]

I'm not from a socialist society, and I don't see the problems he's advocating.

Then again, my country has a constitution which lays out the rights of all people. It also has a criminal president trying to circumvent those rights, but I think overall that such a document resolves every single one of the concerns which Steyn is trying to raise.

Of course, neoconservatives don't like the idea of universal human rights either -- if they're afforded to people they don't like. Which is why the idea is so good -- everyone is equally happy and empowered, and equally unhappy that they cannot make THEIR way the ONLY way.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I'm not from a socialist society, and I don't see the problems he's advocating.

Then again, my country has a constitution which lays out the rights of all people. It also has a criminal president trying to circumvent those rights, but I think overall that such a document resolves every single one of the concerns which Steyn is trying to raise.

Of course, neoconservatives don't like the idea of universal human rights either -- if they're afforded to people they don't like. Which is why the idea is so good -- everyone is equally happy and empowered, and equally unhappy that they cannot make THEIR way the ONLY way.

Yeah right. I'm sure the muslim women on the wrong end of a beating in Australia would beg to differ.

[YankAbroad]

I'm sure the muslim women on the wrong end of a beating in Australia would beg to differ

Muslim women who are being beaten should report the abuse to the police, have charges pressed against the beaters, and file for divorce from their abusive spouses.

Protecting oneself requires one's own involvement. I tire of this expectation from the neoconservatives and socialists alike that the role of government is to "rescue" people from themselves.

If you're being regularly beaten or abused as a citizen of a western country, and you don't report the abuse to the police and exercise your other democratic freedoms, then you're an idiot who might as well be beating yourself.

[Slavik44]

You see Steyn is wrong, he is wrong on one fundemental fact, he under-estimates the power of western culture, ....

Eating pork is a HUGE part of western culture, but I see in today's Van. Sun paper that the age-old staple of the French ... pork soup ... is being banned right across the land from their soup kitchens that feed the hungry. Yet, foul smelling stinky mutton is allowed. That makes me angry. VERY angry.

I'd rather die than eat mutton!

But you go right ahead, Slavik! Bon appetit!!!

If you view a Soup Kitchens goal as that of domesticating the porkers of the world into the drove of French and Western Culture than I can understand why your pride may have a beef with such a fowl decision. But I must disagree with such a bull headed view, the purpose of a soup kitchen is to ensure the provision of food even to the most sickly shoat. In France many people of Such disposition happen to be Muslim, now we could stand and clash horns like a bunch of rams about eating what your given, but if our goal is to save life than throw not our pearls before the swine and let the drift have their mutton.

Really Mark steyn was right we worry about the wrong things.

[sharkman]

Muslim women who are being beaten should report the abuse to the police, have charges pressed against the beaters, and file for divorce from their abusive spouses.

If you're being regularly beaten or abused as a citizen of a western country, and you don't report the abuse to the police and exercise your other democratic freedoms, then you're an idiot who might as well be beating yourself.

Ah, but what about innocent until proven guilty. Let's say the wife reports the abuse and a court date is set. Only in some cases will the husband be ordered to stay away from his wife until the case is heard. Even if he is, and certainly if he's not, how many men who beat their wives are then capable of threatening them or slapping them around a bit to make sure they get their 'story' straight. Even an idiot will put up with some abuse rather than report it and risk a hospital visit. Then again, Muslim woman believe man is the master and they are not equal anyway. (By the way, you must hate your president to presume his guilt like that)

I think Styen has a point about multiculturism. France's experience with Muslim immigration shows the type of problems that can develop.

[Argus]

This article is mostly drivel. There are some points worth considering, but they easily get lost in a long tirade that is self-contradictory and misleading. Some might even go so far as to say it is a typical Jewish ploy to have everyone else see the Jewish enemy as their own, so you will fight their battles for them....Mind you, I don't believe stuff like that, so I wouldn't say it.

I'm surprised at you, fleabag. The article was well-written and the facts it was based upon are undeniable. Europe is becoming more Islamic. The birth rates of the "european" population and its "Muslims" are very clear. Without change most European nations will become majority Muslim. he's also very clear about the affect Saudi money has had on Islam, in the sweeping prostletyzing of the most intollerent and conservative form of Islam.

And despite your professed contempt for the article, you have said NOTHING whatsoever to contradict or dispute anything in it, including its conclusions about the growth and spread of Islam, or what that means to us all.

Further, your last sentence above is intellectual bankruptcy at its worst.

[Argus]

The article is nonsense,

And yet, like fleabag, you seem utterly incapable of disputing its primary contentions about the growth of Islam through its considerably higher birth rates.

If a Muslim from a really patriarchal culture were to come to Canada with really sexist views, but through integration they, or at least, their children, adopt more equal views, that's great.

Certainly true. However, that does not appear to be happening. Instead, that Muslim comes to Canada and retains his views, thinks of our women as whores, and teaches that to his sons and daughters. As they grow older, he sends them back to a "good Muslim nation" to marry, and thus raise the next generation as proper, intollerent, God fearing Muslims who deplore our western whores and godless traditions, but now with larger numbers behind them. Statisical studies of Muslims in Europe show no inclination towards moderation, and no desire to integrate. Over 90% of third Generation Turkish men in Sweden return home to Turkey for their brides. Pakistani girls in Sweden are known as "tickets", for as they reach their late teens they will be sent home to be "reintigrated" into the proper culture of Pakistan, and then return, properly cowed, with a husband twice their age to ensure the next generation is raised properly. There is no reason to believe things are any different in Canada.

The problem with cultural relativity, is that it is almost as if nothing in a culture can be wrong, thus nothing should be changed,

There are all kinds of problems with our culture. Even admitting that, however, it is far more sophisticated, more advanced, more civilized than any Muslim culture we're ever likely to see in our lifetimes. No one with any degree of cultural awareness or sophistication would want to live under an Islamic culture, as opposed to ours.

We're not much at risk having found freedoms, equality of gender, and tolerance to be influence by values that are much less good for us.

Oh? Why? The cultural value set of Muslims in Canada is decidedly opposed to all of that, and not particularly interested in reforming. And as more Muslims are born, and more arrive, and they continue to get their cultural value set from satellite dishes trained at their homelands, from Arabic language newspapers, from the foreign born Immans at mosques (are there ANY Canadian born Imams?) our culture is bound to shift, gradually or not, towards their way of thinking. And their way of thinking is extremely intollerent. They make Stockwell Day seem like Hillary Clinton.

By the way, there was strong opposition from within the Muslim community of having Sharia law in Ontario.

The only opposition I saw was from a small group of female Muslims who had, despite all the efforts of their parents, brothers, fathers and husbands, become somewhat acclimated to our cultural value set. And they are certainly the minority among Muslim women.

[YankAbroad]

Ah, but what about innocent until proven guilty. Let's say the wife reports the abuse and a court date is set. Only in some cases will the husband be ordered to stay away from his wife until the case is heard

Then the wife packs up and leaves, just like you or I would in a similar situation.

The only opposition I saw was from a small group of female Muslims who had, despite all the efforts of their parents, brothers, fathers and husbands, become somewhat acclimated to our cultural value set. And they are certainly the minority among Muslim women.

I'm hesitant to accept your observations when the simple presence of "ethnics" (sic) at the polls is enough to intimidate me. It suggests to me that minorities are not a part of your everyday life to a degree necessary in order to make detailed observations on culture and tradition.

[Argus]

Ah, but what about innocent until proven guilty. Let's say the wife reports the abuse and a court date is set. Only in some cases will the husband be ordered to stay away from his wife until the case is heard

Then the wife packs up and leaves, just like you or I would in a similar situation.

Oh yes, easy to do for a woman who speaks little English, has no job skills, and comes from a brutally patriarchal society. She can always just go home to her family - whoops, no, they'd beat her and send her back. Oh well, tough luck, eh?

The only opposition I saw was from a small group of female Muslims who had, despite all the efforts of their parents, brothers, fathers and husbands, become somewhat acclimated to our cultural value set. And they are certainly the minority among Muslim women.

I'm hesitant to accept your observations when the simple presence of "ethnics" (sic) at the polls is enough to intimidate me. It suggests to me that minorities are not a part of your everyday life to a degree necessary in order to make detailed observations on culture and tradition.

You're mistaking me for someone else. Unsurprising given how mistaken you are about so many other things.

[YankAbroad]

easy to do for a woman who speaks little English, has no job skills, and comes from a brutally patriarchal society

Goodness, I'd think that was a post from a Liberal Party member if I didn't know better.

[Argus]

easy to do for a woman who speaks little English, has no job skills, and comes from a brutally patriarchal society

Goodness, I'd think that was a post from a Liberal Party member if I didn't know better.

A Liberal party member would never see, much less acknowledge the difference in opportunities, in education, and in degrees of options and sophistication between a woman born and raised in Canada, and one from Syria. For to a Liberal, all cultures are equally good and wonderful except the one in the US.

[newbie]

You're mistaking me for someone else. Unsurprising given how mistaken you are about so many other things.

I couldn't agree more Argus. You should follow your own advice sometimes. As for the bottom quote, you have assumed too much. I am a Liberal and very much appreciate the culture in the United States. I would not live there because of the crime rate and the Bush administration.

easy to do for a woman who speaks little English, has no job skills, and comes from a brutally patriarchal society

Goodness, I'd think that was a post from a Liberal Party member if I didn't know better.

A Liberal party member would never see, much less acknowledge the difference in opportunities, in education, and in degrees of options and sophistication between a woman born and raised in Canada, and one from Syria. For to a Liberal, all cultures are equally good and wonderful except the one in the US.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

acknowledge the difference in opportunities, in education, and in degrees of options and sophistication between a woman born and raised in Canada, and one from Syria. For to a Liberal, all cultures are equally good and wonderful except the one in the US.

You are painfully right.

[YankAbroad]

So basically, Argus, your premise is that Syrian Canadian women are too stupid to fend for themselves, and need Big Mommy Government to "protect" them from their savage ways?

[Argus]

So basically, Argus, your premise is that Syrian Canadian women are too stupid to fend for themselves, and need Big Mommy Government to "protect" them from their savage ways?

I'm saying that women from the third world, especially from Muslim countries do not have the same options as Canadian born women. They won't have the support of family or mosque if they leave a violent husband, and, never having been expected to work for a living, have no job skills, little education, and often poor language skills. And in most such cultures leaving a husband is not even an option, not even something which would occur to them.