LAYTON USED PRIVATE HEALTHCARE

[Rovik]

So what exactly, Jack Layton or any other lefty, is the issue with private clinics?

The issue with private clinics are the ones in which the government doesn't pay on your behalf but you pay out of your own pockets such as the one tht Paul Martin goes to. The Quebec govt. doesn't pay the clinic for services rendered, it comes out of Paul Martin's own pocket and it's not cheap.

Anyone in Ontario can go to the clinic that Leyton went to because it's covered under Ontario's healthcare system but this is not the case with clinics like the one Paul Martin use and the fear is that there will be much more clinics opening like this (and they are) and they will be raiding the public system for the best doctors because they can pay doctors more.

Therefore, you would have a two-tier system. One in which richer people can go to these private clinics and pay for the higher-quality services, while everyone else (who can't afford the fees) will using the public healthcare and often with longer wait times and lower quality service.

[Hicksey]

So what exactly, Jack Layton or any other lefty, is the issue with private clinics?

The issue with private clinics are the ones in which the government doesn't pay for you behalf but you pay out of your own pockets so as the one tht Paul Marin goes to. The Quebec govt. doesn't pay the clinic for services rendered, it comes out of Paul Martin's own pocket and it's not cheap.

Anyone in Ontario can go to the clinic that Leyton went to because it's covered under Ontario's healthcare system but this is not the case with clinics like the one Paul Martin use and the fear is that there will be much more clinics opening like this (and they are) and they will be raiding the public system for the best doctors because they can pay doctors more.

Therefore, you would have a two-tier system. One in which richer people can go to these private clinics and pay for the higher-quality services, while everyone else (who can't afford the fees) will using the public healthcare and often with longer wait times and lower quality service.

What's the problem with that?

I have no problem with getting the people that can afford to go elsewhere out of line front in front of me. It very simply makes lines shorter for the rest of us.

[August1991]

So what exactly, Jack Layton or any other lefty, is the issue with private clinics?

The issue with private clinics are the ones in which the government doesn't pay on your behalf but you pay out of your own pockets such as the one tht Paul Martin goes to. The Quebec govt. doesn't pay the clinic for services rendered, it comes out of Paul Martin's own pocket and it's not cheap.

Anyone in Ontario can go to the clinic that Leyton went to because it's covered under Ontario's healthcare system but this is not the case with clinics like the one Paul Martin use and the fear is that there will be much more clinics opening like this (and they are) and they will be raiding the public system for the best doctors because they can pay doctors more.

Therefore, you would have a two-tier system. One in which richer people can go to these private clinics and pay for the higher-quality services, while everyone else (who can't afford the fees) will using the public healthcare and often with longer wait times and lower quality service.

Rovik, you have just described the Conservative position on health care. Harper (and Klein) have repeatedly said that they want a single payer (provincial government health insurance scheme) but whatever supplier happens to work best - including private for-profit clinics and hospitals. That's where Layton went and as Seinfeld noted above, Layton didn't even realize it.

To my knowledge, the NDP (and particularly Layton) has argued that he wants to restrict supply of health services to publicly-managed clinics/hospitals. Layton has been apologetic about going to Shouldice and has said that he wouldn't go there now.

[JerrySeinfeld]

So what exactly, Jack Layton or any other lefty, is the issue with private clinics?

The issue with private clinics are the ones in which the government doesn't pay on your behalf but you pay out of your own pockets such as the one tht Paul Martin goes to. The Quebec govt. doesn't pay the clinic for services rendered, it comes out of Paul Martin's own pocket and it's not cheap.

Anyone in Ontario can go to the clinic that Leyton went to because it's covered under Ontario's healthcare system but this is not the case with clinics like the one Paul Martin use and the fear is that there will be much more clinics opening like this (and they are) and they will be raiding the public system for the best doctors because they can pay doctors more.

Therefore, you would have a two-tier system. One in which richer people can go to these private clinics and pay for the higher-quality services, while everyone else (who can't afford the fees) will using the public healthcare and often with longer wait times and lower quality service.

Rovik that's an antique and quaint argument, but simply unsupported by any factual evidence: so says the supreme court of Canada.

[August1991]

Rovik that's an antique and quaint argument, but simply unsupported by any factual evidence: so says the supreme court of Canada.

The Supreme Court said that the long waiting times were a violation of rights and then gave time to the Quebec government to come up with a solution.

There is no reason why a government health insurance scheme is incompatible with private provision of health services provided in a timely fashion. The Conservative proposal for health care aims to this possibility, and sets in place the incentives to achieve it.

[Rovik]

[Rovik, you have just described the Conservative position on health care. Harper (and Klein) have repeatedly said that they want a single payer (provincial government health insurance scheme) but whatever supplier happens to work best - including private for-profit clinics and hospitals. That's where Layton went and as Seinfeld noted above, Layton didn't even realize it.

To my knowledge, the NDP (and particularly Layton) has argued that he wants to restrict supply of health services to publicly-managed clinics/hospitals. Layton has been apologetic about going to Shouldice and has said that he wouldn't go there now.

So you are telling me that if I needed a hip replacement, and would have to wait 14 months at a public hospital but at the same time, there was a private clinic nearby that did the same thing but charged $10000 for the operation and I could get it done in 2 weeks, I could go to the private clinic and get the govt to pay for the operation??? Is this what Harper and Klein are proposing?

[August1991]

So you are telling me that if I needed a hip replacement, and would have to wait 14 months at a public hospital but at the same time, there was a private clinic nearby that did the same thing but charged $10000 for the operation and I could get it done in 2 weeks, I could go to the private clinic and get the govt to pay for the operation??? Is this what Harper and Klein are proposing?

Precisely. Provided that the fee charged by the private clinic met the fee list of the provincial health insurance scheme.

Few if anyone buys health services the way they buy milk or eggs. Health servicves are almost always bought through an insurance scheme. In the US, these schemes are private. In Canada, we have managed to create provincial government schemes that offer universal coverage. Who actually provides the health service is another story completely.

I believe almost all abortion clinics in Canada are private for-profit. To my knowledge, and I suspect for obvious reasons, there is no problem with waiting lists.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Rovik that's an antique and quaint argument, but simply unsupported by any factual evidence: so says the supreme court of Canada.

The Supreme Court said that the long waiting times were a violation of rights and then gave time to the Quebec government to come up with a solution.

There is no reason why a government health insurance scheme is incompatible with private provision of health services provided in a timely fashion. The Conservative proposal for health care aims to this possibility, and sets in place the incentives to achieve it.

Read setions 64-66 of the ruling.

It clearly states the "slippery slope" argument of the public system deteriorating is baseless.

[JerrySeinfeld]

So you are telling me that if I needed a hip replacement, and would have to wait 14 months at a public hospital but at the same time, there was a private clinic nearby that did the same thing but charged $10000 for the operation and I could get it done in 2 weeks, I could go to the private clinic and get the govt to pay for the operation??? Is this what Harper and Klein are proposing?

Precisely, provided that fee charged by the private clinic met the fee list of the provincial health insurance scheme.

Few if anyone buys health services the way they buy milk or eggs. Health servicves are almost always bought through an insurance scheme. In the US, these schemes are private. In Canada, we have managed to create provincial government schemes that offer universal coverage. Who actually provides the health service is another story completely.

I believe almost all abortion clinics in Canada are private for-profit. To my knowledge, and I suspect for obvious reasons, there is no problem with waiting lists.

ROVIK you seem confused (as are many Canadians) between the concept of "private providers" versus "private INSURERS"

The real issue of privatization that I think most Canadians are worried about is the de-listing of services (ie no longer covered by public medicare.

But you need not look any further than your yellow pages to see that private PROVIDERS are rampantly growing across this country. And we should have no problem with this.

Whats wrong with a hospital that is run privately, but bills the public system?

I know if I ran a hospital I'd prefer to keep my fees in line with public mandate - allowing me access to a much larger market than simply the affluent.

[Wilber]

So what exactly, Jack Layton or any other lefty, is the issue with private clinics?

The issue with private clinics are the ones in which the government doesn't pay on your behalf but you pay out of your own pockets such as the one tht Paul Martin goes to. The Quebec govt. doesn't pay the clinic for services rendered, it comes out of Paul Martin's own pocket and it's not cheap.

Anyone in Ontario can go to the clinic that Leyton went to because it's covered under Ontario's healthcare system but this is not the case with clinics like the one Paul Martin use and the fear is that there will be much more clinics opening like this (and they are) and they will be raiding the public system for the best doctors because they can pay doctors more.

Therefore, you would have a two-tier system. One in which richer people can go to these private clinics and pay for the higher-quality services, while everyone else (who can't afford the fees) will using the public healthcare and often with longer wait times and lower quality service.

I favor a publicly funded system. I don't care if it is provided by a privately run facility. If they are efficient enough to make a profit at it using government fee schedules, more power to them.

I also know that if I had a child that was in dire need of care couldn't be had in a timely manner from the public system, I would do whatever was necessary to get that care, regardless of where it could be obtained. Just like I can for my dog if I so choose. Layton and the rest could stick their dogma where the sun don't shine.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I AGree.

WHich brings to mind another issue: Keep in mind we already have a two tiered system of health.

When people wish to pay out of their own pocket - they simply go south. I think alot of us know someone personally who has done this.

Now why not keep those dollars in Canada and those DOCTORS in Canada?

[Rovik]

So you are telling me that if I needed a hip replacement, and would have to wait 14 months at a public hospital but at the same time, there was a private clinic nearby that did the same thing but charged $10000 for the operation and I could get it done in 2 weeks, I could go to the private clinic and get the govt to pay for the operation??? Is this what Harper and Klein are proposing?

Precisely, provided that fee charged by the private clinic met the fee list of the provincial health insurance scheme.

Few if anyone buys health services the way they buy milk or eggs. Health servicves are almost always bought through an insurance scheme. In the US, these schemes are private. In Canada, we have managed to create provincial government schemes that offer universal coverage. Who actually provides the health service is another story completely.

I believe almost all abortion clinics in Canada are private for-profit. To my knowledge, and I suspect for obvious reasons, there is no problem with waiting lists.

What happens if the fee charged by the private clinic is higher than the fee list of the provinical health insurance schemes. Well than, it would be only the affluent who would be able to afford it.

Here's quotes from the NDP web site that can expain the danger better than I can

"Studies show that American-style private health care leads to more deaths, costs more money and reduces accessibility. European-style private care that substitutes for publicly provided services is used by less than 20% of people in Germany, Sweden and other European Union countries, and includes prohibitions against doctors working in both systems. And privatization does not even save governments money. In the United States, the private delivery model is so expensive that the governments there spend more per capita providing health care than do the governments in Canada – while leaving many Americans outside of hospital doors looking in.

It’s creeping privatization. And the Liberals have stood back and allowed it to happen. In some cases, Liberals have helped it happen. It’s now at the point where far too many Canadians are going without treatment rather than pay from their own pocket. According to a 2004 survey conducted in five countries, 17% of Canadian respondents said they had gone without the care they needed in the previous year because of cost.

An unfortunate and regrettable Supreme Court ruling has upped the stakes on this issue dramatically. In the wake of that decision, several provinces have put the federal government on notice that they intend to set Canada’s public, singlepayer health system aside and open the door to parallel, private, for-profit systems designed to permit a few to buy their way to head of the line. The federal Liberal government has yet to respond to this decision, which many feel is the most direct assault on public health care yet. "

Here's the link to the whole article. Link

[Rovik]

But you need not look any further than your yellow pages to see that private PROVIDERS are rampantly growing across this country. And we should have no problem with this.

Yes, and it has happened under the Liberal's watch though they try to say that they are staunch defenders of public healthcare.

Whats wrong with a hospital that is run privately, but bills the public system?

I know if I ran a hospital I'd prefer to keep my fees in line with public mandate - allowing me access to a much larger market than simply the affluent.

Hospitals will push for the highest price they can get...it's often about the money and the greed that is the result of it...pure and simple. For example, it's a common practice for dental clinics to charge more to patients with insurance (insurance companies pay for it and may even charge higher premiums to recoup some of the money) than if the patient paid directly with cash.

[Wilber]

The burden of providing medical services under the Canadian Health Act falls on the Provinces not the Federal Government. If they can get me more bang for my buck from a privately operated facility, good for them. If not, we should look at something else. This is not a matter of ideology for me.

Even under a public pay system, private clinics would not operate in a vacuum, they would have to compete with each other as well as the public system. If there is no money in it, they won't bother.

Why is the desire to make a profit always come down to "greed" for some people. It is the "greed" of people that make profits and employ people to make those profits that gives us our standard of living and social safety net. No government has ever created a job. All they can ever do is provide a favourable climate for "greedy" people to generate wealth that they can redistribute.

[justcrowing]

A small country like New Zealand has both private and public medicare. Private hospitals compete for business and have specials - kinda like department store sales. Kiwi's are permitted to purchase insurance for private treatment if they need something urgently done and do not wish to wait in the public system. The country's economy is good, they have a good lifestyle, their dollar has risen to just a shade below ours and I have yet to hear a Kiwi complain other than about low wages. They also have some of the best Universities, low tuitions and students study there from all over the world. They have reduced the size of government, are high on the list as being the least corrupt, enjoy low taxes and a country that is not over-populated.

Australia too has a two tier system and they love it. There is no lack of good doctors in the public system either. I have a lot of family there [one is a doctor] and we often compare notes. Problem with Canadians is that they are a culture of entitlement. As Martin said on the News last night - he does not want Canadians to fend for themselves - in other words "cradle to grave welfare". Is this the Canada you want? So now bite me!

[Rovik]

So now bite me!

People here range from one political end of the spectrum to another and naturally will have different views on different policies but to tell someone "to bite me" is pretty low. I disagree with many on the forum but I won't put them down in such a way even in the guise of humour. I respect anyone here who have their views even if they have completely different from my own and I hope the reverse is true as well.

[justcrowing]

So now bite me!

People here range from one political end of the spectrum to another and naturally will have different views on different policies but to tell someone "to bite me" is pretty low. I agree with many on the forum but I won't put them down in such a way even in the guise of humour. I respect anyone here who have their views even if they have completely different from my own and I hope the reverse is true as well.

Sorry you misunderstand the meaning of "bite me" - it is not a put down only an invite for a differing opinion. Oh well, win some, lose some. Also, I have no disrespect for another's point of view and you are invited to dispute the system of the two countries I mentioned or to agree.

[August1991]

Hospitals will push for the highest price they can get...it's often about the money and the greed that is the result of it...pure and simple. For example, it's a common practice for dental clinics to charge more to patients with insurance (insurance companies pay for it and may even charge higher premiums to recoup some of the money) than if the patient paid directly with cash.

Profit = Greed. If I understand it, that's your argument Rovik. Well, how about this. An organization that covers its costs and doesn't ask for a subsidy. That is, an organization that creates something of greater value to society than what it requests of society. What's wrong with that?

Your point about how insurance schemes pay more than personal uninsured clients is an argument against insurance. There are ways around this, and smart insurance organizations know this.

Studies show that American-style private health care leads to more deaths, costs more money and reduces accessibility. European-style private care that substitutes for publicly provided services is used by less than 20% of people in Germany, Sweden and other European Union countries, and includes prohibitions against doctors working in both systems.

Look, I happen to dislike the European health system because it is two tier, elitist and expensive (despite the stats). I dislike the American health system because it is unfair.

I happen to believe that a universal health insurance scheme, organized in small units (most US HMOs are larger than provincial ministries of health), combined with private/public provision of services is a viable system. No one in the world has tried it. The Conservatives are proposing this in their platform.

It would not solve all the problems related to health care but it would be a good start. We buy health care the way we buy car repairs. Regular maintenance combined with lemon insurance and catastrophic accident insurance.

Several provinces have public car insurance, but provinces don't run repair shops and garages.

The health care debate is really a debate about insurance schemes, and premiums.

----

Read setions 64-66 of the ruling.

It clearly states the "slippery slope" argument of the public system deteriorating is baseless.

Huh? Please explain.

[Canuck E Stan]

I heard Shirley Douglas on CBC this morning state that in fact is Shouldice is a "for profit" clinic but in her words, "it's not a big profit, only 3%".

I also heard Shirley talk about the "only 3% profit". This bothers me,is she trying to say if it's low profit it's okay to have private healthcare? I always thought the NDP were against private healthcare, or are they now going to say it's okay as long as the profits are low? Odd stance to take if you're totally against private healthcare.

[JerrySeinfeld]

But you need not look any further than your yellow pages to see that private PROVIDERS are rampantly growing across this country. And we should have no problem with this.

Yes, and it has happened under the Liberal's watch though they try to say that they are staunch defenders of public healthcare.

Whats wrong with a hospital that is run privately, but bills the public system?

I know if I ran a hospital I'd prefer to keep my fees in line with public mandate - allowing me access to a much larger market than simply the affluent.

Hospitals will push for the highest price they can get...it's often about the money and the greed that is the result of it...pure and simple. For example, it's a common practice for dental clinics to charge more to patients with insurance (insurance companies pay for it and may even charge higher premiums to recoup some of the money) than if the patient paid directly with cash.

Look - you're trying to make this into a debate of public versus private.

I like our public system. But I think an additional of some private elements wouldn't hurt. Sur there are some drawbacks and pitfalls, but when I think about the privatization experience in general, it had been a good one. I lived in Alberta when they privatized many industries...telephones, power, liqour stores etc. And before everyone one happened, you always heard the naysaying and nitpicking of the lefties who swore it would be the death of us all. But it wasn't. In every case it resulted in more competition, choice, better service and more convenience.

All I am saying it - give it a chance. I think a blend is at least better than a system that has obviously begun to fail us.

[Rovik]

The burden of providing medical services under the Canadian Health Act falls on the Provinces not the Federal Government. If they can get me more bang for my buck from a privately operated facility, good for them. If not, we should look at something else. This is not a matter of ideology for me.

This would be great if all the provinces were equal in resources and money but this is not the case. There would be huge disparities from province to province

Even under a public pay system, private clinics would not operate in a vacuum, they would have to compete with each other as well as the public system. If there is no money in it, they won't bother.

Perhaps in the bigger cities this would be true but I suspect in the more rural sections of the country this would not be true. For example, there might be one hip replacement clinic in Atlantic Canada, perhaps in Halifax, and this clinic would serve the region. People could go to other clinics in the rest of Canada but the extra cost of transportation would be detrimental.

Why is the desire to make a profit always come down to "greed" for some people. It is the "greed" of people that make profits and employ people to make those profits that gives us our standard of living and social safety net. No government has ever created a job. All they can ever do is provide a favourable climate for "greedy" people to generate wealth that they can redistribute.

I'm not saying all companies are greedy but many are under heavy pressure to provide a return for their stockholders or to provide, for example, performance bonusues for CEOs or just plain corrupt businessmen. We only have to look at the ENRONs and the WorldComs of the world to see if this is true. We only have to look at the fact that many are outsourcing to third world countries to save on labour costs to produce better profits.

[Rovik]

I like our public system. But I think an additional of some private elements wouldn't hurt. Sur there are some drawbacks and pitfalls, but when I think about the privatization experience in general, it had been a good one. I lived in Alberta when they privatized many industries...telephones, power, liqour stores etc. And before everyone one happened, you always heard the naysaying and nitpicking of the lefties who swore it would be the death of us all. But it wasn't. In every case it resulted in more competition, choice, better service and more convenience.

We saw the chaos that resulted with deregulation of Electricity in Ontario. it was a failure and resulted in massive price increases for the Ontario consumer and was one of the main reasons why the Eves Conservative govt. fell in Ontario.

[Wilber]

"Perhaps in the bigger cities this would be true but I suspect in the more rural sections of the country this would not be true. For example, there might be one hip replacement clinic in Atlantic Canada, perhaps in Halifax, and this clinic would serve the region. People could go to other clinics in the rest of Canada but the extra cost of transportation would be detrimental."

I don't know where you live but in BC one of the biggest problems our public system faces is keeping doctors in rural areas and there is no way we can afford surgical facilities within easy reach of all our citizens with our public system. There is only so much money. Maybe we should see if some private clinics are willing to take a crack at it where the public ones can't. Not saying it will work but we will never know if we don't ask the question. We need some more ideas other than just throwing more money at the present system. Our public system doesn't even know what particular surgical procedures actually cost. You can bet a private one would. They would know or go broke.

[speaker]

One thing our public helth care system could do is ease doctor shortage by increasing the number of students enrolled in medical schools. Doctors are on average as greedy as anybody and if the shortage means they can demand better pay, better conditions, the ones that make it through our current med schools are going to want to make big bucks and live where the amenities suit their families best. With more doctors around more would see the benefits of living and enhancing the lifestyle of rural areas.

I disagree with our health care providers searching for immigrant doctors only because for the most part those doctors are needed in their home countries far more than they are needed here. It is beyond selfishness.

[speaker]

Wilbur you wrote that our public system doesn't even know what particular surgical procedures actually cost. Knowing how much care is put into budgeting in the system now I find that hard to believe. What gives you that impression?