Battery plant liberals gave 15 billion dollars to "in order to create jobs" can use Temporary Foreign Workers.

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Pierre Poilievre’s fearmongering on NextStar moves the Tories in the wrong direction
 

Back before Canada’s Conservatives started to tread down the path toward protectionism, one of their last acts in government was to sign a free-trade deal with South Korea.

The Canada-Korea Free Trade Agreement that prime minister Stephen Harper’s government negotiated in 2014 promised tariff-free access to a fast-growing Asian economy for Canadian exporters. The deal nevertheless faced stiff opposition from Canada’s auto sector, which feared that more imported Hyundai and Kia cars would mean fewer jobs at assembly plants here.

In truth, Canada had little choice but to conclude such a pact after the United States had entered into a free-trade deal with South Korea in 2011. That deal had left Canadian companies at a disadvantage. Our exports to Korea fell sharply in 2012 and 2013.

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“This agreement is a great deal for both our countries,” Mr. Harper insisted in announcing the Canada-Korea agreement in early 2014. “It will create jobs and opportunities for Canadians today, and just as importantly, for generations that follow.”

Since then, two-way trade between Canada and South Korea has more than doubled, to almost $22-billion in 2022. Canadian exports to South Korea soared from $3.5-billion in 2013 to $8.7-billion last year. Trade with South Korea has also taken on critical importance as part of Ottawa’s new Indo-Pacific strategy and efforts to “de-risk” economic relations with China.

Flash forward almost a decade to an apparently amnesiac Pierre Poilievre’s tantrum about the South Korean workers coming here to install equipment at the NextStar electric-battery plant that Stellantis and South Korea’s LG Energy Solution are building in Windsor, Ont.

Now Conservative Leader, Mr. Poilievre was a member of the government that signed the free-trade deal with South Korea, and even served as employment minister when it took effect in 2015. He of all people should know what is in it, including provisions that enable “contract service providers” from each country to work in the other on a temporary basis.

Most of the hundreds of workers that NextStar intends to bring in from South Korea will do so under these provisions, which exempt them from having to obtain a work permit. A smaller number are expected to come as temporary foreign workers, as long as NextStar can prove that Canadians could not perform their jobs. Since the South Korean workers will be coming to install proprietary technology that belongs to LG Energy Solution, that should not be a problem.

These workers will only be here for a matter of months. The plant could not be built without them, or at least not in time for battery production to be up and running by 2025. They will not “steal” jobs from Canadian construction workers nor occupy any of the 2,500 permanent jobs that Stellantis says the plant will create.

Mr. Poilievre has nevertheless worked himself into a tizzy about their arrival, even suggesting that Canadian taxpayers are footing the bill for their paycheques. “I love South Korea, wonderful country,” he quipped this week. “But they don’t fund jobs for Canadians and we shouldn’t fund jobs for their workers.”

Except that the $15-billion in production subsidies that the federal and the Ontario governments have promised to NextStar are only to start flowing once the plant begins to make batteries – or well after most of the South Korean workers have returned home. Ottawa and Queen’s Park have also promised $1-billion to NextStar to support the plant’s construction, which will provide jobs for more than 2,000 Canadian construction workers.

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There are good reasons to question whether the massive subsidies that the federal, Ontario and Quebec governments have promised to Stellantis, Volkswagen and Northvolt to build electric-vehicle batteries in this country are worthwhile investments. But the fact that all three plants will need to bring in foreign workers to install proprietary equipment is not one of them. Without such workers, these plants simply could not be built here. It is as plain as that.

The success or failure of Canada’s experiment in battery production will only be determined in the course of time. The Parliamentary Budget Officer estimatesthat it will take 23 years for Ottawa and Queen’s Park to break even on their investment in the NextStar plant alone.

Mr. Poilievre has not said he opposes subsidizing these battery makers. Rather, he is seeking to rile up working-class voters by falsely suggesting foreigners might be stealing their jobs.

As with his fictitious claim that the updated Canada-Ukraine trade agreement includes a carbon tax – a claim he is using as a pretext for opposing the deal – Mr. Poilievre has again shown he is willing to turn his back on the free-trade ethos his party once championed to score political points and scare voters. As such, he is taking the Tories in precisely the wrong direction.

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-pierre-poilievres-fearmongering-on-nextstar-moves-the-tories-in-the/?login=true

Kind of a bullshit article.

They sort of lost me at this point:

Back before Canada’s Conservatives started to tread down the path toward protectionism, one of their last acts in government was to sign a free-trade deal with South Korea.

Oh - so they've never actually been protectionist at all - their last act in gov't was to pass a trade deal.

And whenever a conservative raises a concern, it's "fear mongering".

ANd they double down on the stupid - the "Free trade" deal is about trade - it was not intended to flood canada with foreign workers. 

Now sure -  if a korean company wants to invest it's money in canada and bring in it's own experts that's one thing. 

But this plant is being built with a healthy dollop of Canadian taxpayers money. 15.  BILLION.  DOLLARS.

And there's no guarantee or the like that they won't continue to bring in 'temp' workers as the factory gets going.

But according to the globe - it's "fear mongering".  Raising concerns about it is a 'rant'.  Spending 15 billion canadian dollars without making sure the jobs would stay with Canadians is being "protectionist".

 

 

[BeaverFever]

13 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Oh - so they've never actually been protectionist at all - their last act in gov't was to pass a trade deal.

Yeah but now they’re flirting with protectionism with all their recent anti-globalization and anti-WEF rhetoric. We will see how serious they are about that once they’re in power however. I hav a feeling the protectionism will all disappear right after PP’s coronation. 
 

17 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And whenever a conservative raises a concern, it's "fear mongering".

An invalid concern meant to stir up emotions 

 

17 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

the "Free trade" deal is about trade - it was not intended to flood canada with foreign workers. 

As stated in the article, the free trade deal with Korea that the Conservatives wrote specifically states that it allows these types of foreign workers, over whom PP himself presided as Minister of Employment.  So yes it was intended to being in these kinds of foreign workers. 
 

22 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Now sure -  if a korean company wants to invest it's money in canada and bring in it's own experts that's one thing. 

But this plant is being built with a healthy dollop of Canadian taxpayers money. 15.  BILLION.  DOLLARS.

 

As the article states, Canadian taxpayer money only starts flowing AFTER the foreign works have set up the factory equipment and it is producing batteries   Canadian workers are also the ones building the factories  in the first place and will also be the one working in the factory once it’s up and running

 

26 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And there's no guarantee or the like that they won't continue to bring in 'temp' workers as the factory gets going.

I think it’s quite clear that they’re there to set up the factory equipment only.  Their assignments will range fro 3 to18 months, specifically they will “assemble, install and test the specialized equipment required to build the batteries” as “they have specific knowledge of the equipment, having been part of the team to build it and disassemble it for shipping, and will therefore see the installation through ”. 

[CdnFox]

14 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Yeah but now they’re flirting with protectionism with all their recent anti-globalization and anti-WEF rhetoric.

The wef issue has zero to do with protectionism.  Nice try tho kiddo  

The cpc track record is to increase trade.  Trade has FALLEN under trudeau.  The cpc isn't "flirting" with anything

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An invalid concern meant to stir up emotions 

Oh i forgot, as a left winger you want to silence any ideas you don't agree with.

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As stated in the article, the free trade deal with Korea that the Conservatives wrote specifically states that it allows these types of foreign workers,

And as stated in my reply sure - if a company is investing it's own money into a factory in canada or the like

But when 15 billion dollars of our money is going into it - that's not quite the same thing.

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As the article states, Canadian taxpayer money only starts flowing AFTER the foreign works have set up the factory

So? They still paid for all of that with the money we will wind up giving them. Money is fungible.

And where precisely is the guarantee they won't use more 'temp' people later?

 

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   Canadian workers are also the ones building the factories  in the first place and will also be the one working in the factory once it’s up and running

Alongside how many foreign workers?

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I think it’s quite clear that they’re there to set up the factory equipment only. 

Why is that clear?  Where exactly is that written in the contracts? When did we negotiate that?

Was it 'clear' to you that we'd be allowing 1600 foreign workers to build the plant we're largely paying for when the deal was signed?  Which document specifically clarifies that?

If we weren't spending billions of dollars  on it then fine - their factory, they should be able to do what they want. 

But if it's got 15 billion canadian dollars flowing into it then part of the deal should have been a clause forbidding any foreign workers. Keep the 1600 wages in Canada.  Or - let them pay for the damn factory.

[BeaverFever]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:22 AM, CdnFox said:

The wef issue has zero to do with protectionism.  Nice try tho kiddo  

The cpc track record is to increase trade.  Trade has FALLEN under trudeau.  The cpc isn't "flirting" with anything

Yes it does the WEF “issue” is a right wing conspiracy theory about “globalists elites” trying to take over the world and free trade/globalism is a core part of that conspiracy. You’re right that conservatives have always been free trade globalists and still are. But PP is trying to cash in on the far right fringe and defend his right flank from People’s Party (the other PP) with his cryptocurrency stunts and his anti-Ukraine trade comments. 
 

On 12/2/2023 at 1:22 AM, CdnFox said:

Oh i forgot, as a left winger you want to silence any ideas you don't agree with.

Nobody’s silencing anyone. Just because some disagrees with you doesn’t mean you’re being silenced.

On 12/2/2023 at 1:22 AM, CdnFox said:

And as stated in my reply sure - if a company is investing it's own money into a factory in canada or the like

But when 15 billion dollars of our money is going into it - that's not quite the same thing.

That’s a made-up rule. And in this instance it’s not practical or reasonable for the purpose of setting up this highly specialized and extremely brief job of setting up this machinery. What are we supposed to send Canadians to Korea to study this machinery for 2 years just so they can can come back and get a temp 3 month job setting it up?  Het over it. Thousands of Canadian jobs are being created in the construction and operation of this facility. Conservatives are zeroing in on this because they need to criticize SOMETHING and they think this will resonate with their blue collar supporters who don’t pay attention to details. 
 

On 12/2/2023 at 1:22 AM, CdnFox said:

And where precisely is the guarantee they won't use more 'temp' people later?

Where precisely is the guarantee that Pierre Poillievre won’t secretly hire foreign temp workers for his own business?  Where is the precisely is the guarantee that you’re not a drug dealer?  The point being you’re asking for proof of a negative. I mean we know about these temp workers because they’ve publicly shared those details. Nowhere does the agreement say they have blanket permission to import unlimited number of temp workers indefinitely. 
 

On 12/2/2023 at 1:22 AM, CdnFox said:

Alongside how many foreign workers?

There’s no reason to believe there would be any significant number of foreign workers beyond those they’ve announced who will be setting up the equipment. I don’t even think PP has challenged that. 
 

On 12/2/2023 at 1:22 AM, CdnFox said:

Why is that clear?  Where exactly is that written in the contracts? When did we negotiate that?

Was it 'clear' to you that we'd be allowing 1600 foreign workers to build the plant we're largely paying for when the deal was signed?  Which document specifically clarifies that?

If we weren't spending billions of dollars  on it then fine - their factory, they should be able to do what they want. 

But if it's got 15 billion canadian dollars flowing into it then part of the deal should have been a clause forbidding any foreign workers. Keep the 1600 wages in Canada.  Or - let them pay for the damn factory.

It’s clear that the explanation provided is reasonable and the alternative is unreasonable. . They met with Windsor police and told them to expect 1600 TFWs thats how this story cam to light. Why would they arrange a meeting with police and then tell them this?  They’ve come out publicly and explained the reasons for the TFW and it’s reasonable   Canada doesn’t even have a single large scale battery facility…not ONE.  How is it you think we have workers skilled and experienced to set up this advanced and highly specialized equipment?  That skill and experience will only evolve in Canada AFTER the plant is up and running 
 

 

[CdnFox]

45 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Yes it does the WEF “issue” is a right wing conspiracy theory about “globalists elites” trying to take over the world and free trade/globalism is a core part of that conspiracy
 

And?  That's got crap all to do with actual trade. If it makes some people feel better that a PP gov't won't participate in WEF so be it but that's got squat to do with actual trade.  Unless you think the rumours are true. 

Put it another way - what  trade would we have done if they did go, and isn't being done as a result? nothing.
 

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That’s a made-up rule.

 

All rules are made up. That was a dumb thing to say.  On top of which it's not a rule. It is however accepted to be the way it is. If we're putting in money then the work should go to our people. They won't go to jail for giving the work away but people will remember it.

 

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Where precisely is the guarantee that Pierre Poillievre won’t secretly hire foreign temp workers for his own business?

he can't - he doesn't have a business   But if he starts one and if the gov't gives him 15 billion dollars to do so, he better be able to answer that question. 

And the 'proof' would be putting it in the agreement for the money that he not hire foreign workers.

 

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Where is the precisely is the guarantee that you’re not a drug dealer?  The point being you’re asking for proof of a negative.

You're being deliberately stupid at this point i take it.  You honestly believe it's not possible to sign a contract as part of the deal to turn over 15 billion dollars which says 'no foreign labour'? You really think that couldn't be done? Utterly impossible?

Ok there sparky.
 

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There’s no reason to believe there would be any significant number of foreign workers beyond those they’ve announced who will be setting up the equipment. I don’t even think PP has challenged that. 

There is every reason.  If a group does something once it's reasonable to assume they'll do it again.

Trudeau could easily have prevented that by including a 'canadian workers' clause in the contract.
 

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It’s clear that the explanation provided is reasonable and the alternative is unreasonable.

It is in no way clear at all.

What's clear is that you care more about supporting justin than you do facts or canadian workers.

Despite your claims to the contrary - it would have been quite easy to include a canadian worker clause. If they absolutely needed their own people - which i don't believe they do in the slightest - then you can build that into the contract and limit future abuses.