Sad When People Purposely Mislabel the NDP

[BubberMiley]

No problem. But you'd likely never have the balls to admit socialists aren't the mainstream of the NDP.

[shoop]

Questioning my balls is a little rude pal. And pretty tough sitting behing a computer screen.

Talk to the mainstream of the NDP. Many of them would happily admit to being socialist.

No problem. But you'd likely never have the balls to admit socialists aren't the mainstream of the NDP.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[BubberMiley]

Told you.

Talk to a lot of CPCers and you'll find they're fundamentalist nutjobs (see Leafless). Look at NDP governments where they exist (I'll help you--MB and SK). You'll find that Gary Doer's NDP is nothing if not moderate. They're more middle-of-the-road (and barely to the left of) the PC party they replaced.

[cybercoma]

It definitely shows they're ignorant. If you look at Manitoba or Saskatchewan, which have had NDP governments for years, they aren't exactly socialist states. There's Wal-marts like everywhere else. I think the CCF decided to work with the capitalist system, oh, somewhere around the 1950s. Parties evolve (you'd think CPCers would know this). there are socialists in the NDP, but there are also crazy fundamentalist nutjobs in the CPC. Neither necessarily represent the mainstream of the party.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The NDP Party belongs to SI...how much more socialist do you get?

[scribblet]

No problem. But you'd likely never have the balls to admit socialists aren't the mainstream of the NDP.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I find that really strange, as the NDP party says in its constitution that it is, and is proud to be associated with the democratic socialist parties of the world .

Now if you were arguing they were not communists because only a few radicals were exremist, it would make more sense, but why would you deny that they are socialists ?

http://ottawacentre.org/en/Pages/pdf/ndp-e.pdf

CONSTITUTION OF THE NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY

As amended by the Federal Convention, Toronto 2003

PREAMBLE

The New Democratic Party believes that the social, economic and political progress of Canada can beassured only by the application of democratic socialist principles to government and the administration of public affairs.

The principles of democratic socialism can be defined briefly as:

That the production and distribution of goods and services shall be directed to meeting the social and individual needs of people within a sustainable environment and economy and not to the making of profit;

To modify and control the operations of the monopolistic productive and distributive organizations through economic and social planning. Towards these ends and where necessary the extension of the principle of social ownership;

The New Democratic Party holds firm to the belief that the dignity and freedom of the individual isa basic right that must be maintained and extended; and

The New Democratic Party is proud to be associated with the democratic socialist parties of the world and to share the struggle for peace, international co-operation and the abolition of poverty.

[shoop]

I　think CC and scriblett said it all.

How about answering their points. Or is a party that openly belongs to socialist international equivalent (on the other end of the scale) to a party with a lot of *fundamentalist nutjobs*. Is there an international organization with that title?

Told you.

Talk to a lot of CPCers and you'll find they're fundamentalist nutjobs (see Leafless). Look at NDP governments where they exist (I'll help you--MB and SK). You'll find that Gary Doer's NDP is nothing if not moderate. They're more middle-of-the-road (and barely to the left of) the PC party they replaced.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Slavik44]

Talk to the mainstream of the NDP. Many of them would happily admit to being socialist.

Well your making the claim, so I belive the burden of proof is on your shoulders.

However if we look at what we do have we can determine right away where the NDP truly sit.

The NDP do not belive in a violent bloody revolution to overthrow capitalism, that point alone means they are not in the truest sense Marxist.

The NDP are also not Radical Socialist's or socialists, as the NDP does not belive in the overthrow of Capitalism. A radical Socialist still belives that Capitalism must be overthrown but that in some countries in can be done through democracy. Socialists are more along the lines of the Marxist Lenenist Party of Canada. Herew we have a party that wants nationalization of financial institutions, Canada pulling out of "bad" international organizations while remaining within the U.N. However, none of their policies calls for the abolishment of Capitalism, just to regulate the hell out of it to a very high point.

We can than make a jump to the NDP, we know very well that they belive in capitalism and the workings of a free market principle in the basic form (obviously they aren't afraid to regulate). However, that is far from Marxism. There is no call for centralised state control of the means of production or to turn Bombardier over to workers councils. As well the NDP belives in the fundemental rights of ALL Humans (very important ALL HUMANS), and as far as I can tell there is no call for state planners. Those few points alone seperate the NDP entirely from being labled Socialist. It puts them residing in a territory that goes as far left as the social democrats but far enough to the right (of the left) to include some Liberals and Progressives.

I am sure if we tried hard enough we could find a few TRUE Socialists in the NDP likewise I am sure if we tried hard enough we could find some scary right wing nut jobs in the CPC. Wether or not someone admits to being socialist is another thing, you will always find people who think its cool to be socialist, but really in the end they are nothing more then social democrats, in other words a sheep in wolves clothing.

When it boils right down to it the NDP, differs on every point from true marxism and even from modern socialism that they are no more socialist than the Conservative party of Canada. Because a progressive tax rate and a welfare check is far from a violent revolution and the overthrowing of capitalism. Although the NDP are with out a doubt left wing they are not socialist, they are not marxist.

[BubberMiley]

Also, sorry for mentioning your balls. Sometimes I forget to include the winking smilefy face and come off sounding more hostile than intended.

[shoop]

Bubber, no worries.

Slavik ... hmm, I think the NDP`s membership in SI is proof enough of the party`s belief in their socialism.

I don`t know why you are making the jump to marxism. But I didn`t, and nobody else on this board appeared to. Appears that you are setting up this false link to marxism because you can`t sustain the charges on socialism alone.

Well your making the claim, so I belive the burden of proof is on your shoulders.

However if we look at what we do have we can determine right away where the NDP truly sit.

The NDP do not belive in a violent bloody revolution to overthrow capitalism, that point alone means they are not in the truest sense Marxist.

The NDP are also not Radical Socialist's or socialists, as the NDP does not belive in the overthrow of Capitalism.

  When it boils right down to it the NDP, differs on every point from true marxism and even from modern socialism that they are no more socialist than the Conservative party of Canada. Because a progressive tax rate and a welfare check is far from a violent revolution and the overthrowing of capitalism. Although the NDP are with out a doubt left wing they are not socialist, they are not marxist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Argus]

The really hilarious thing about the NDP's rep as the party of special interests is that the same label applies to the Liberals and Conservatives. The differenc eis that the latter parties' "special interests" are corporations, banks, insurance companies and the rest of the "elite" who see mainstream middle-class Canada as a bunch of fat white cows they can milk to benefit their special interests and pay for all their tax cuts and shareholder bottom lines. The phenomenon of people voting against their economic interests is well documented down south: the virus seems to be spreading to Canada.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only special interest connection anyone can document about the conservatives is that of the Canadian taxpayers federation, which wants to cut taxes. So the tories want to cut my taxes and the NDP wants to raise my taxes. Gee, I wonder which special interest sounds better.

I have seen nothing from the NDP over the last twenty years which indicates it has the slightest interest or care in my well-being, or anything about me. Nor have I seen anything in any of their policies which addresses anything I want done, as per the thread "What I want". There is thus no reason whatever for me to even consider voting NDP.

[Shakeyhands]

Shakey,

quit being a biotch.

Yeah its kind of like when the Reform/Alliance call themselves and masquerade as Conservatives...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I thought it was funny

(and true.... )

[shoop]

I thought you would get the joke. That is all that counts with that post...

Well I thought it was funny

(and true.... )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[cybercoma]

Well your making the claim, so I belive the burden of proof is on your shoulders.

However if we look at what we do have we can determine right away where the NDP truly sit.

The NDP do not belive in a violent bloody revolution to overthrow capitalism, that point alone means they are not in the truest sense Marxist.

The NDP are also not Radical Socialist's or socialists, as the NDP does not belive in the overthrow of Capitalism. A radical Socialist still belives that Capitalism must be overthrown but that in some countries in can be done through democracy. Socialists are more along the lines of the Marxist Lenenist Party of Canada. Herew we have a party that wants nationalization of financial institutions, Canada pulling out of "bad" international organizations while remaining within the U.N. However, none of their policies calls for the abolishment of Capitalism, just to regulate the hell out of it to a very high point.

  We can than make a jump to the NDP, we know very well that they belive in capitalism and the workings of a free market principle in the basic form (obviously they aren't afraid to regulate). However, that is far from Marxism. There is no call for centralised state control of the means of production or to turn Bombardier over to workers councils. As well the NDP belives in the fundemental rights of ALL Humans (very important ALL HUMANS), and as far as I can tell there is no call for state planners. Those few points alone seperate the NDP entirely from being labled Socialist. It puts them residing in a territory that goes as far left as the social democrats but far enough to the right (of the left) to include some Liberals and Progressives.

  I am sure if we tried hard enough we could find a few TRUE Socialists in the NDP likewise I am sure if we tried hard enough we could find some scary right wing nut jobs in the CPC. Wether or not someone admits to being socialist is another thing, you will always find people who think its cool to be socialist, but really in the end they are nothing more then social democrats, in other words a sheep in wolves clothing.

  When it boils right down to it the NDP, differs on every point from true marxism and even from modern socialism that they are no more socialist than the Conservative party of Canada. Because a progressive tax rate and a welfare check is far from a violent revolution and the overthrowing of capitalism. Although the NDP are with out a doubt left wing they are not socialist, they are not marxist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do believe the Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada has the monopoly on Marxism. On the otherhand we're talking about the NDP; we're talking about the party that is a "proud member" of Socialist International. If that doesn't make it a socialist party, nothing does. Read The Constitution of the New Democratic Party.

Frankly, I don't care who you support. If you believe in democratic socialism, that's your prerogative. But let's call it what it is instead of trying to pass it off as something more benign.

[Slavik44]

Slavik ... hmm, I think the NDP`s membership in SI is proof enough of the party`s belief in their socialism.

The evidence is in the policies, at game day thats what counts, besides that

The SI Committee for the CIS and the Caucasus met on 16-17 December in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, to exchange views on advancing and strengthening SOCIAL DEMOCRACY  in the region, the contribution of the International in overcoming conflicts and to define the priorities for the organisation in its work there.

From there site, I am not argue agaisnt the social democrat leanings of the NDP, I am argueing that is what they primarily are.

I don`t know why you are making the jump to marxism.

About as innocent as a porn star eh?

But I didn`t, and nobody else on this board appeared to.

Appears that you are setting up this false link to marxism because you can`t sustain the charges on socialism alone.

"Ever notice that many Conservative supporters (and Liberal ones as well, though not as much) call the NDP such terms as Communists, Socialists, Marxists "

That was in the opening post, so save it.

-------

Nobody else on this board???? Well you didn't have to be so nice but thanks for the gift.

QUOTEjustcrowing

As for NDP, well if you want a  Marxist government, there is a price to pay.

Neal.F.

I am hoping that the NDP gets beaten up so badly that they lose official party status, so that Jack Layton and his marxist louts can never again hold the taxpayers hostage as they did for the past 8 months. I'd like to see them wiped out, but Bill Blaikie, Judy Wascilycia-Lys and pat Martin, and Libby Davies are safe.

mcqueen625

This leaves me with the prospect of voting for the present bunch of thieves and liars, the NDP, or one of the other nut-case fringe parties

Montgomer Burns

Only the communistica-left would

**notign that is a charachterization of the whole left not just NDP

Shady

Well, I feel the exact opposite. Anyone who wastes a vote for Jack Layton, but specifically the NDP is as ignorant as one can be. It's not suprising that so little voters support a party that's borderline communist.

RightWinger

NDP: Treehugging communists

anyways the point is the references are made, I can touch on marxism and why the NDP are not marxist 1)because it is not agaisnt the board rules 2) because it is a part of the topic of this thread 3) because people do use those terms 4) because it goes with the flow of my arguements 5) To provide background 6) Because I felt like it.

[Slavik44]

On the otherhand we're talking about the NDP; we're talking about the party that is a "proud member" of Socialist International.

The first statute of the Socialist international

"1. THE SOCIALIST INTERNATIONAL is an association of political parties and organisations which seek to establish democratic socialism."

I HAVE NEVER DENIED THAT THE NDP IS COMPOSED OF MANY SOCIAL DEMOCRATS, although given the socialist International will obviously contain some Anti-capitalist links, I would still refuse to call Canada Communist because we trade with Cuba or belong to the U.N (theres Commies there.

If that doesn't make it a socialist party, nothing does. Read The Constitution of the New Democratic Party.

A true socialist demands the overthrow of capitalism, that is what would make it a Socialist party. Any one who supports capitalism in part or in whole while proclaiming to be a socialist is a liar.

Frankly, I don't care who you support.

Thats nice, If someone made a post about the CPC being Fascist bastards I would and belive I have defended against that, in the end if the truth is already established I try to be on that side.

If you believe in democratic socialism, that's your prerogative.

It is my perogative, but I don't...just happens to be how I will vote.

But let's call it what it is

then we are in agreement: a party of social democrats, Progressives, Liberals and

a few socialists-Light.

instead of trying to pass it off as something more benign.

Well then show me where the NDP demands capitalism to be overthrown.

[newbie]

Just kinda sad when a thread started to avoid mislabelling a party automatically degenerates into name calling and mislabelling a different party.

I took it as sarcasm, but your comment was bordering on ignant.

Sounds like he struck a nerve shoop.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oooh, a raw nerve.

[Guest eureka]

So what is wrong with being a Social Democrat and being the only Western philosophical idea that seeks such things as an end to poverty and the equality of man?

So what is wrong with being a Socialist: of being something that few to the Right of the NDP even begin to understand.

Why does McCarhyism never die. Why does the Right go into hysterics at the sound of the word Socialist? Why is it that so many of the poor benighted followers of the Corporate inspired Right Wing are completely unable to recognise were their own interests lie? Why do they slavishly adhere to belief in all the anti-socialist staements that are made. For statements only are they. They are never supported with either reason or fact.

[Rovik]

Shoop:

Yes, I agree the unfairness does indeed run both ways, thought personally I've heard the NDP demonized and wrongly labelled much more so then the CPC. Even in the media I have found this true. Don't believe me? Just read the attacks on the NDP by many of the right wng columnists of the Sun chain of newspapers (Ezra Levant, Peter Worthington and Paul Jackson are just a few that come to mind.)

I've heard Rae's name brought up much, much more to critisize the NDP than I have Harris to critisize the CPC.

Slim McSquinty:

Spend some time on the Rabble site and you will see what scares us, dogmatic idealogues who hold very narrow views and are extremely intolerant of their percieved enemies.

I have also seen some right wing sites that are very, very scary abd very intolerant themselves .

Argus:

People don't trust the CPC because people feel the CPC are a party of special interests, and see mainstream poor to low to middle-class Canada as a bunch of lazy bums that should make their own way in the world without the government's help, they would cut social programs such as EI and Social Assistance to people who really need it, and increase tax cuts to multi-billion dollar corporations and the rich, while many people live in poverty and often don't have a home to call their own (much less rent) In addition, most of us are highly suspicous about the commitment of the CPC to basic freedoms, esp freedom of speech. If you look to USA, a right wing such as the CPC is, govt. has taken away many rights and freedoms in the name of fighting terrorism. People now have to be careful not to be misunderstood on what say on phone lines to avoid wire tappers from making the wrong conclusions.

To us poor to low to middle class Canadians, a vote for the CPC is seen as a vote for lower corporate taxes, dismantlement of the social safety net, an intrusion on human rights such as the right for all to marry, and meant to brainwash us into believing that the banks and big corporations have our best interests in mind.

My thanks to Shoop, for giving me the idea on how to reply to Argus.

Scriblett:

I can also quote a certain CPC leader that makes him seem extreme. That's an easy game to play.

Shoop:

Talk to the mainstream of the NDP. Many of them would happily admit to being socialist.

I haven't talked to many that have said that. Most i have talken to have basically said that they are social democrats with a conscience. And just to add; social democracy and pure socialism are not the same thing and to say otherwise would be plain wrong.

[scribblet]

"Scriblett:

I can also quote a certain CPC leader that makes him seem extreme. That's an easy game to play."

I didn't think quoting the most recent constitution of a party was playing games, if I were quoting something said years ago while in another party, or not even in a party, then I might agree. CPC have a constitution, Harper seems to be sticking to the CPC's.

I fail to understand why members of the NDP would fail to know that they are socialist, and by that I do not mean Marxist or communist. Like the British Labour party, I believe the NDP recognizes that socialism doesn't work and have moderated their positions. However, as others have said, there is an extreme radical element whom I would describe as Marxist, just read Rabble for a while. And yes, the CPC has a radical element, but they do not represent the whole, hopefully neither does Rabble.

Obviously they are not committed to change by means of revolution, but not sure about these people.

http://www.ndpsocialists.ca/

[PocketRocket]

Sad When People Purposely Mislabel the NDP, ...to scare others from voting NDP

Ummm, sorry to burst your bubble, but EVERY party has to face this kind of thing.

Just watch TV or listen to the radio, and you'll hear it all day.

Lately I've heard a lot more bashing of the Libs and the Tories than I have the NDP.

This is what we call "politics", in case you were unaware....

[cybercoma]

So what is wrong with being a Social Democrat and being the only Western philosophical idea that seeks such things as an end to poverty and the equality of man?

So what is wrong with being a Socialist: of being something that few to the Right of the NDP even begin to understand.

Why does McCarhyism never die. Why does the Right go into hysterics at the sound of the word Socialist? Why is it that so many of the poor benighted followers of the Corporate inspired Right Wing are completely unable to recognise were their own interests lie? Why do they slavishly adhere to belief in all the anti-socialist staements that are made. For statements only are they. They are never supported with either reason or fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People aren't embracing socialism because they believe in freedom. They believe in being able to make their own way and build their own wealth and have opportunities not afforded to a socialist society. Capitalism empowers the consumers. These socialists that want the government providing for all of Canadians to reduce poverty (on the backs of those who've sought ways to live happily on their own) need to realize that whatever the government provides, they can also take away. Canadians don't want to be dictated to, or as the socialists would like to sugarcoat it, "regulated".

Sure this doesn't take away the need for people to be protected from corrupt bookkeeping and illegal business practices, but when the government stops doing it's job of protecting peopel and takes on the role of provider, I believe we're in a lot of trouble.

[Argus]

People don't trust the CPC because people feel the CPC are a party of special interests, and see mainstream poor to low to middle-class Canada as a bunch of lazy bums that should make their own way in the world without the government's help, they would cut social programs such as EI and Social Assistance to people who really need it, and increase tax cuts to multi-billion dollar corporations and the rich, while many people live in poverty and often don't have a home to call their own (much less rent)  In addition, most of us are highly suspicous about the commitment of the CPC to basic freedoms, esp freedom of speech. If you look to USA, a right wing such as the CPC is, govt. has taken away many rights and freedoms in the name of fighting terrorism.  People now have to be careful not to be misunderstood on what say on phone lines to avoid wire tappers from making the wrong conclusions.

To us poor to low to middle class Canadians, a vote for the CPC is seen as a vote for lower corporate taxes, dismantlement of the social safety net, an intrusion on human rights such as the right for all to marry, and meant to brainwash us into believing that the banks and big corporations have our best interests in mind.

Interesting slant, but it doesn't wash. The Conservatives get most of their money from individual donaters in small amounts. The Liberals get most of their money from lobbyists and corporate supporters. The Tories are a part of farmers and small businessmen. The NDP are a party of guci wearing, capucino sucking elitists indoctrinated at university. Even the unions are abandoning the NDP, realizing that the NDP don't care about ordinary workers.

I've BEEN lower middle class, or perhaps, upper lower class, for most of my life - until recently. I never had any time for the NDP and their idiotic concerns, because those concerns were nothing to me. The working poor don't give a crap about environmental sustainability tax credits, nor do they have the luxury of insisting on an ideologically pure health care system. They don't give a crap about aborigines, international aid or gay rights. They're not impressed by coddling criminals, whether they're "young offenders" or not, and they think there are too many damned immigrants in this country - since they live among those immigrants and can see all the flaws in our immigration and multiculturalism experiment up close. They don't get to visit quaint ethnic neighborhoods for photo ops and then head back to the condo, after all, unlike the NDP wine and cheese set.

No, when I was working poor I never had any time for the NDP. And now that I've edged above middle-middle class into, I suppose, upper-middle class, I have even less time for them.

[justcrowing]

We live under what is more properly called a mixed economy--that is, an

economic system that permits private property, but only at the discretion of

government planners. A little bit of capitalism and a little bit of

socialism.

When government redistributes wealth through taxation, when it attempts to

control and regulate business production and trade, who are the winners and

losers? Under this kind of economy the winners and losers are reversed: the

winners are those who scream the loudest for a handout and the losers are

those quiet citizens who work hard and pay their taxes. That's how socialism works.

The requirements for success in a free society demand that ordinary citizens

order their lives in accordance with certain virtues--namely, rationality,

independence, industriousness, prudence, frugality, etc. In a free

capitalist society individuals must choose for themselves how they will

order their lives and the values they will pursue. Under socialism, most of

life's decisions are made for you.

The Liberals do and NDP will not only make decisions for us but for their MP's as well - no free vote.

[scribblet]

We live under what is more properly called a mixed economy--that is, an

economic system that permits private property, but only at the discretion of

government planners. A little bit of capitalism and a little bit of

socialism.

When government redistributes wealth through taxation, when it attempts to

control and regulate business production and trade, who are the winners and

losers? Under this kind of economy the winners and losers are reversed: the

winners are those who scream the loudest for a handout and the losers are

those quiet citizens who work hard and pay their taxes.  That's how socialism works.

The requirements for success in a free society demand that ordinary citizens

order their lives in accordance with certain virtues--namely, rationality,

independence, industriousness, prudence, frugality, etc. In a free

capitalist society individuals must choose for themselves how they will

order their lives and the values they will pursue. Under socialism, most of

life's decisions are made for you. 

The Liberals do and NDP will  not only make decisions for us but for their MP's as well - no free vote.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In other words a nanny-state. Only nationalized day care is good etc. etc.

According to Marxist doctrine, socialism is a stage of society between capitalism and communism and along the way, socialists eventually will want to take away your property rights. When done privately, we call it theft but when done collectively, we call it income transfers or redistribution of wealth. The workers become slaves to the collective, you know, where others are forced to work and serve the purposes of another.

Course, its a mystery as to why the NDP gets called a "socialist party", but then, maybe it is because their constitution declares their adherence to "socialist principles". I could be wrong though

However, I don't undertstand why an NDPer would object to being called socialist, maybe someone could explain that, and if they do, are they working towards changing the NDP constitution?

[Guest eureka]

So we trot all the "Protestant Ethic" view of humanity. Something that belongs to the 16th. and 17th. centuries but was coopted by the so-called Capitalists in the 18th. and 19th. to justify the slavery to an economic machine. The 20th. brought an age of enlightment when the working poor became educated and fought back.

Interesting that we are now experiencing the reversal and return to the dark ages. Interesting, too, how the new cannon fodder for the elites is the group that, like Argus, has been fortunate to raise itself up a notch and needs to feel that there is a sector of society that is beneath them. Strange how humans have always had this need to feel better than others.

Interesting, too, to me, is how ignorant of socialism and social democracy the Capitalist trench warriors are. What has Marxism to do with Socialism? Marx developed his own philosophy that was at odds with the Socialists and tried to claim that Socialism was " a step on the way." Actually, he was not far wrong in that. Socialism was a step that would bring the human racr to humanity before the humanity was to be destroyed by Marxism.

There are at least six major variants of Socialism that developed in the 19th. and twentieth centuries through their own philosopher inspirators. None of them recognises Marxism as a goal and. indeed, are more opposed to that philosophy than is Capitalism. Capitalism wants Marxism as a bogeyman to keep the populace in fear and in check. Socialism would completely replace any Marxist strain.

What we have now in the guise of Capotalism is Fascism as Orwell described it. It is the counter atttack of Capitalism on the Unions The Capitalist warriors are a pretty pathetic lot. Not "indoctrinated at university," but baited and hooked by propaganda and fearful enough of losing their "comfort" that they abandon any notion of justice and equality for all.