Did Martin Orchestrate the recent spat with Bush

[scribblet]

Did Martin orchestrate spat with Washington?

Kate and I have been investigating a tip that she received that suggests that Paul Martin did in fact orchestrate the recent fight between himself and the Bush administration. The proof may lie in the Liberal ads.

Consider the following timeline:

December 5th: The Liberals release three ads on their website. (1, 2, 3)

December 7th - Paul Martin at Montreal climate change conference: "To the reticent nations, including the United States, I say this: There is such a thing as a global conscience, and now is the time to listen to it, now is the time to join with others in the global community"

December 8th - Canadian ambassador to the US, Frank McKenna (a Liberal) reportedly receives a "dressing down" from the Bush administration over Martin's comments on December 7th.

Kate notes: Norm Spector provides analysis from David Frum disputing this rebuke of McKenna.

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/archives/000495.html

[err]

Did Martin orchestrate spat with Washington?

Kate and I have been investigating a tip that she received that suggests that Paul Martin did in fact orchestrate the recent fight between himself and the Bush administration. The proof may lie in the Liberal ads.

Consider the following timeline:

December 5th: The Liberals release three ads on their website. (1, 2, 3)

December 7th - Paul Martin at Montreal climate change conference: "To the reticent nations, including the United States, I say this: There is such a thing as a global conscience, and now is the time to listen to it, now is the time to join with others in the global community"

December 8th - Canadian ambassador to the US, Frank McKenna (a Liberal) reportedly receives a "dressing down" from the Bush administration over Martin's comments on December 7th.

Kate notes: Norm Spector provides analysis from David Frum disputing this rebuke of McKenna.

Somebody needs to "get their attention"... good for Martin...

[Argus]

Did Martin orchestrate spat with Washington?

Kate and I have been investigating a tip that she received that suggests that Paul Martin did in fact orchestrate the recent fight between himself and the Bush administration. The proof may lie in the Liberal ads.

Consider the following timeline:

December 5th: The Liberals release three ads on their website. (1, 2, 3)

December 7th - Paul Martin at Montreal climate change conference: "To the reticent nations, including the United States, I say this: There is such a thing as a global conscience, and now is the time to listen to it, now is the time to join with others in the global community"

December 8th - Canadian ambassador to the US, Frank McKenna (a Liberal) reportedly receives a "dressing down" from the Bush administration over Martin's comments on December 7th.

Kate notes: Norm Spector provides analysis from David Frum disputing this rebuke of McKenna.

Somebody needs to "get their attention"... good for Martin...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uhm, you don't get the attention of a 900 pound gorrila by slapping his face.

Must I say it again? A $7 billion PER MONTH trade surplus with them. Our entire economy depends on full access to US markets. And given the complexity and amount of trade there are simply bound to be occasional protectionist problems. It's inevitable. The thing to do is keep plodding away diplomatically. It might not be sexy or please the anti-American bigots who like to see their politicians screaming and cursing the Americans but it pays far more dividents in the end.

[Yaro]

The US needs us far more then we need them. You can say as many a time as you wish that it’s not true, but that won't make it so. NAFTA was, in practice, an agreement of access to there market in exchange for access to our resources. They pushed for it far harder then we did.

[Drea]

"To the reticent nations, including the United States, I say this: There is such a thing as a global conscience, and now is the time to listen to it, now is the time to join with others in the global community"

How exactly is the above comment "screaming and cursing the Americans"?

The USA deserves a slap in the face -- LOL -- no matter how "large of an ape" it is.

Might DOES NOT make right.

What WILL Harper do, if elected PM, about the soft wood lumber issue? Will he sell off all our crown land to the highest bidder (the Americans)? Will he stop the flow of oil? Will he add tariffs to oil?

What EXACTLY!

He wants to build a "better" relationship with America. WHAT does that mean EXACTLY?

He should CLEARLY spell out EXACTLY what the cons would do differently than what Martin is doing now with regard to trade.

IMO, Martin is doing his best to be DIPLOMATIC in the face of the IGNORANT ape.

[PocketRocket]

Uhm, you don't the attention of a 900 pound gorrila by slapping his face.

Must I say it again?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heh heh. An apt analogy considering one of the nicknames given to Bush is "Chimp".

[Argus]

The US needs us far more then we need them. You can say as many a time as you wish that it’s not true, but that won't make it so. NAFTA was, in practice, an agreement of access to there market in exchange for access to our resources. They pushed for it far harder then we did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't seem to get the relationiship between buyer and seller. Buyers get to pick whoever they want to buy from. Sellers don't have any such choice. We are sellers. We can't replace the US as buyers. They, however, can replace us as sellers, from any number of countries. The idea that they need us more than we need them is ideological crap based on nothing even remotely resembling economic realities.

[PocketRocket]

Now now, kids, lets play nice.

We need the USA.

The USA needs us.

Who needs who more???

Who cares???

This current little spate of words between the USA and Canada will blow over, and in all likelyhood, will be completely forgotten within 6 months.

[Argus]

"To the reticent nations, including the United States, I say this: There is such a thing as a global conscience, and now is the time to listen to it, now is the time to join with others in the global community"

How exactly is the above comment "screaming and cursing the Americans"?

I didn't say that specifically was. That was more a slap in the face. However, the comments from the anti-Americans here, and a few of them at the federal scence, such as that idiot Parrish, and the former PMs press spokesman speak volumes. And don't tell me the anti-American crowd wouldn't have orgasms if the PM started cursing out the Americans and calling them names.

The USA deserves a slap in the face -- LOL -- no matter how "large of an ape" it is.

Might DOES NOT make right.

Oh of course it does. You want to follow through on that bs? Go find the biggest, meanest local punk who "deserves a slap" and slap his face. Give me a call from the hospital. You'll have lots of time waiting for service, after all.

What WILL Harper do, if elected PM, about the soft wood lumber issue? Will he sell off all our crown land to the highest bidder (the Americans)? Will he stop the flow of oil? Will he add tariffs to oil?

I imagine he will continue to speak softly, to go through the trade mechanisms to get a resolution, and eventually there will be a resolution. Softwood is a miniscule issue compared to our overall trade, and people should stop getting their naionalistic panties in a twist over it.

He wants to build a "better" relationship with America. WHAT does that mean EXACTLY?

It means not criticising them publicly, but criticising them privately (just what good do you imagine it does to insult them in public anyway?). It means emphsising how similar our interests are in so many ways, and how much we can help each other. It does not mean quivering in fear of the big bad capitialist bogeyman to the south.

He should CLEARLY spell out EXACTLY what the cons would do differently than what Martin is doing now with regard to trade.

Do you know that before the G7 conferences Canada used to get visited by all sorts of foreign leaders who wanted to talk to our leaders about international issues? That was because Canada was seen as a big player who had influence with the big boys, especially the US. That doesn't happen any more because everyone knows Canada is not a player and has little or no influence. You don't get influence with your friends by sneering and snapping at them all the time, or in the case of international relations, by playing to popular, if misguided domestic politics instead of doing what is in your own best interest.

IMO, Martin is doing his best to be DIPLOMATIC in the face of the IGNORANT ape.

Martin is a weasel who doesn't care if our relationship with the US worsens, doesn't care if his bravado causes minor trade wars, doesn't care if it damages our trade relationship or economy so long as he can get some cheap votes out of it. Because Martin cares only about himself and his party. Never having had any aquaintance with real people, never having had to worry about bills or jobs or anything else, he exists only to serve his own ego. There is nothing more important to this country than maintaining a good relationship with the US, and he and Chretien have deeply damaged it in order to appeal to bigots without brains.

[Argus]

Uhm, you don't the attention of a 900 pound gorrila by slapping his face.

Must I say it again?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heh heh. An apt analogy considering one of the nicknames given to Bush is "Chimp".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have no stomach for Bush, as I have made plane on numerous occasions. But Bush is almost certainly smarter and better educated than Chretien could have ever hoped to be. And his paralels with Martin are actually kind of eerie, both being the pampered sons of powerful politicians who gained wealth almost solely through the "generosity" of their father's wealthy friends. Canadians who trooped off to the polls to vote in Chretien election after election have no business sneering at the US leader's stupidity and shallow pool of knowledge. Bush got through Harvard. Where did you go to school?

[August1991]

Martin is a weasel who doesn't care if our relationship with the US worsens, doesn't care if his bravado causes minor trade wars, doesn't care if it damages our trade relationship or economy so long as he can get some cheap votes out of it.

Uh, in a democracy, is that not what politicians are supposed to do? Seek votes?

Many Canadians must be suspicious of the US if Martin is using this as a way to get "some cheap votes out of it". Argus, are you anti-democratic?

----

My own feeling about this Liberal Party conspiracy theory and organizing a spat with the US is that it would require the US Ambassador Wilkins to be in on the scheme. It was his speech that inflamed the issue. And frankly, I don't believe Wilkins is being run by the PMO.

[PocketRocket]

Uhm, you don't the attention of a 900 pound gorrila by slapping his face.

Must I say it again?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heh heh. An apt analogy considering one of the nicknames given to Bush is "Chimp".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have no stomach for Bush, as I have made plane on numerous occasions. But Bush is almost certainly smarter and better educated than Chretien could have ever hoped to be. And his paralels with Martin are actually kind of eerie, both being the pampered sons of powerful politicians who gained wealth almost solely through the "generosity" of their father's wealthy friends. Canadians who trooped off to the polls to vote in Chretien election after election have no business sneering at the US leader's stupidity and shallow pool of knowledge. Bush got through Harvard. Where did you go to school?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whoa. Are we touchy today???

Sorry, but I didn't have a daddy with millions of $$$ to send me to Harvard, so I had to settle for what I could finance on my own.

It seems evident, though, that all GWB's education didn't help him to become a good business manager, as his string of failed business ventures will attest.

And isn't a country the biggest business of all???

Hopefully his management skills have improved since his pre-governor days.

[Drea]

"Oh of course it does. You want to follow through on that bs? Go find the biggest, meanest local punk who "deserves a slap" and slap his face. Give me a call from the hospital. You'll have lots of time waiting for service, after all."

This has got to be the most inane comment I have ever read.

Perhaps this "biggest meanest local punk" ought to be in prison, no?

"softwood is a miniscule issue compared to our overall trade"

Tell that to all the displaced forestry workers who are now flipping burgers...

"fear of the big bad capitialist bogeyman to the south."

Fear, no. Disgust, absolutely.

In the year 2000, the world thought of America was the land of dreams and opportunity and envied it.

In the year 2001, the world sympathized with the Americans as they were *attacked*.

In the year 2003, the world is angry with America for rushing into Iraq for... oh darn what was the reason again -- oh yah, oil.

In 2005 the world is disgusted with America for it's treatment of it's own citizens when Katrina hit.

From envy to disgust in 5 short years. Way to go George "Chimp" Bush!

BTW, we are JUST as "capitalist" as the USA.

Martin is a weasel who doesn't care if our relationship with the US worsens, doesn't care if his bravado causes minor trade wars, doesn't care if it damages our trade relationship or economy so long as he can get some cheap votes out of it"

If he were truly garnering votes from the Anti American crowd he would've shut off the oil by now.

What has he done?

Not nearly enough IMO!

He phones Bush and wants to talk about it -- ooooooh, scary, bad Anti American Martin wants to NEGOTIATE -- OMG what a terrible, leftist thing to do!

Perhaps he should be "softer" on them... LOL we all know that when you point out a bully's faults, he gets MAAAAD!

BTW what to you figure we should do about softwood, nothing?

The smartest thing Canada can do at this point is to continue findind new markets for our products. Trade envoys are currently in China and India (which are MUCH bigger markets than our southern neighbour)

No matter what kind of shape our relationship with the USA is in, soon they will not be able to buy our resources anyway, as they are very quickly going broke.

[Argus]

This has got to be the most inane comment I have ever read.

Perhaps this "biggest meanest local punk" ought to be in prison, no?

Not where there is no police, no courts and no prisons, and there are none on the international stage. Besides, Liberals don't believe in prisons.

"softwood is a miniscule issue compared to our overall trade"

Tell that to all the displaced forestry workers who are now flipping burgers...

Talk about inane. You'd prefer it if they had lots of company, would you?

Fear, no. Disgust, absolutely.

Yes, the US is disgusting, unless, of course, you compare it to everyone else, which guys like you NEVER do. The US is disgusting compared to China? India? Russia? France? Nigeria? North Korea? Cuba? Saudi Arabia? Iran?

The US is an imperfect nation in a world filled with imperfect nations, but they are better than most. Thge same people, however, who get red in the face and break windows when a US cabinet minister comes to town are busy playing video games when the leaders of China, Russia or other other dictatorships comes to visit.

In the year 2000, the world thought of America was the land of dreams and opportunity and envied it.

And still do. Ever examined how many immigrants to Canada get here and then try to skip across the border? Nobody does the reverse. I wonder why that is.

In the year 2001, the world sympathized with the Americans as they were *attacked*.

Except for those jumping up and down and cheering, and those blaming the US for hte attack. Much of the Arab world seems to believe the US did it, or the CIA did it, or the Jews did it, to this day.

In the year 2003, the world is angry with America for rushing into Iraq for... oh darn what was the reason again -- oh yah, oil.

Silly, childish and brainless. The US spent all those billions, the US administration spent so much capital, lost so much support, for a couple of years worth of oil, which they paid world prices for anyway? Uh huhhhhh.

BTW, we are JUST as "capitalist" as the USA.

I bet that really eats at you, doesn't it?

Martin is a weasel who doesn't care if our relationship with the US worsens, doesn't care if his bravado causes minor trade wars, doesn't care if it damages our trade relationship or economy so long as he can get some cheap votes out of it"

If he were truly garnering votes from the Anti American crowd he would've shut off the oil by now.

I said he was a weasel, not suicidally stupid.

[Argus]

I have no stomach for Bush, as I have made plane on numerous occasions. But Bush is almost certainly smarter and better educated than Chretien could have ever hoped to be. And his paralels with Martin are actually kind of eerie, both being the pampered sons of powerful politicians who gained wealth almost solely through the "generosity" of their father's wealthy friends. Canadians who trooped off to the polls to vote in Chretien election after election have no business sneering at the US leader's stupidity and shallow pool of knowledge. Bush got through Harvard. Where did you go to school?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whoa. Are we touchy today???

No. Didn't mean that as anything personal. It's the standard retort I give to so many who question Bush's education or brains.

Sorry, but I didn't have a daddy with millions of $$$ to send me to Harvard, so I had to settle for what I could finance on my own.

It seems evident, though, that all GWB's education didn't help him to become a good business manager, as his string of failed business ventures will attest.

And isn't a country the biggest business of all???

Hopefully his management skills have improved since his pre-governor days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I doubt it. I did not say Bush was any good as a president, or that he was any good as governor. The thing is, there is this standard derisive belief, mostly among the left, that Bush is an uneducated simpleton cowboy from the boonies. That's simply not true. Bush knows what he needs to know. Does he know about foreign countries? Hell no. He never needed to, never wanted to. Does he know how to run a business, the need to put in long, hard hours? I doubt it. I doubt a man like Bush ever bothered to work hard at anything. Why should he? With his money, with daddy's money? With generous friends?

But don't fall into the trap of thinking the man is a dunce. He's not. He's self serving, dishonest and small minded, and he only really cares about people like himself. But in that way he really isn't much different than Chretien or Martin, now is he?

[Argus]

Martin is a weasel who doesn't care if our relationship with the US worsens, doesn't care if his bravado causes minor trade wars, doesn't care if it damages our trade relationship or economy so long as he can get some cheap votes out of it.

Uh, in a democracy, is that not what politicians are supposed to do? Seek votes?

By appealing to the lowest common denominator? By offering up beads and baubles? By doing something which the simple crowd likes, but which he knows is contrary to their interests? That might be a way to get votes, but it's cheap and sleazy and shows just how little he actually cares about the country he so loudly professes his love for.

[PocketRocket]

Martin is a weasel who doesn't care if our relationship with the US worsens, doesn't care if his bravado causes minor trade wars, doesn't care if it damages our trade relationship or economy so long as he can get some cheap votes out of it.

Uh, in a democracy, is that not what politicians are supposed to do? Seek votes?

By appealing to the lowest common denominator? By offering up beads and baubles? By doing something which the simple crowd likes, but which he knows is contrary to their interests? That might be a way to get votes, but it's cheap and sleazy and shows just how little he actually cares about the country he so loudly professes his love for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A gold star goes to anyone who remembers the name of the philosopher who stated that when the general populace is given the vote, they will vote for bread and circuses every time.

Sorry to say, ARGUS, but the lowest common denominator has been the dominant theme in politics for quite some time.

[Biblio Bibuli]

A gold star goes to anyone who remembers the name of the philosopher who stated that when the general populace is given the vote, they will vote for bread and circuses every time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A gold star?

What a Juvenal offer that is .... tsk tsk tsk. How old are you PocketRocket?

[Biblio Bibuli]

What a Juvenal

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OOPS, I meant to write "Juvenile". (sorry .. English is my second language.)

[August1991]

What a Juvenal

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OOPS, I meant to write "Juvenile". (sorry .. English is my second language.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your first is Latin?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[Guest eureka]

The ombudsman?

[Guest eureka]

Juvenal actually said; "The people that once bestowed commands, consulships, legions, and all else, now concerns itself no more, and longs eagerly for just two things - bread and circuses!"

It is a little different than being given the vote -which they were'nt in our sense of voting. But, perhaps more apropos of todays apathy.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But who is to guard the guards themselves, you ask?

Greg, I suppose.

And he's doing a fine job of late ... thank you.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Juvenal actually said; "The people that once bestowed commands, consulships, legions, and all else, now concerns itself no more, and longs eagerly for just two things - bread and circuses!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know, Eureka, I think it is a good thing for an uneducated man like me to read books of quotations. "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations" is an admirable work, and I studied it intently. The quotations when engraved upon the memory give you good thoughts. They also make you anxious to read the authors and look for more.

Scored any great writers at the GW stores lately?

[Guest eureka]

What is an uneducated man? I agree with you about books of quotations and I often spend hours poring over them. Nothing is more stimulating. They can be a n education you will never get in a school.

I pick up a few great books at GW every week. I have a library of classics that would be hard to match: nearly all from that and similar giveaway sources. I could not afford the virgin copies.