Buh-bye Tookie

[Montgomery Burns]

California Governor Ahnuld has refused to grant clemency to Tookie Williams, the founder of the Crips gang that murdered 4 people in 2 seperate robberies, thus Tookie will be getting the needle. The Hollywood liberal crowd is in an uproar over this, which only goes to prove - once again - the old maxim:

Conservatives will fight to protect the innocent and punish the guilty, while liberals will fight to protect the guilty and kill the innocent.

[kimmy]

California Governor Ahnuld has refused to grant clemency to Tookie Williams, the founder of the Crips gang that murdered 4 people in 2 seperate robberies, thus Tookie will be getting the needle.  The Hollywood liberal crowd is in an uproar over this, which only goes to prove - once again - the old maxim: 

Conservatives will fight to protect the innocent and punish the guilty, while liberals will fight to protect the guilty and kill the innocent.

Well, I don't know about the last bit... but I'm curious: why such a big fuss over this particular death row bum?

I know that a lot of people oppose the death penalty under any circumstances, and I respect that. I'm curious, though, why there seems to be so much more uproar in support of "Tookie" than in other capital punishment cases.

Is it because as co-founder of the Crips he has legions of fans and admirers?

Is it because Arnold Schwarzenegger is a big fat lemon as a governor, and people are glad to have an opportunity to embarrass him?

Is it because "Tookie" is such a cuddly-sounding nickname?

-k

[Montgomery Burns]

kimmy:

Well, I don't know about the last bit... but I'm curious: why such a big fuss over this particular death row bum?

He's a killer. From common killers like Wesley Cook (Mumia Abu-Jamal) to massmurderers like Castro and Saddam, the left often seems to sanctify murderers. Surely you have noticed this.

I know that a lot of people oppose the death penalty under any circumstances, and I respect that.

Sadly, often these are the same people that support unlimited abortions--even late-term abortions.

I'm curious, though, why there seems to be so much more uproar in support of "Tookie" than in other capital punishment cases.

See above.

Is it because as co-founder of the Crips he has legions of fans and admirers?

He wrote some books (or had someone write some books according to his detracters) telling kids not to join gangs, one of which sold a whopping 300 copies.

Is it because Arnold Schwarzenegger is a big fat lemon as a governor, and people are glad to have an opportunity to embarrass him?

Ahnuld hasn't been recalled, unlike the former Governor, and the only people who are being embarrassed are the ones who support Tookie (who has never expressed remorse for his crimes).

But after 24 years, the families of the 4 people he murdered can now get closure.

Is it because "Tookie" is such a cuddly-sounding nickname?

Bingo!

[crazymf]

Why keep someone in jail first for 25 years and then execute them? That's cruel punishment. If someone is sentenced to death, take him out and get it over with.

Seems to me most death cases are like ebay in that all the appeal pressure and last minute legal wiggling happens right at the end of the game anyway, just like the bidding, so why wait so long?

Lethal injection is no worse than putting a dog to sleep.

I for one am not wanting to spend my tax dollars to house the likes of Paul Bernardo and Martin Gingras, Clifford Olson, etc. Those guys are wastes of skin and should be done away with too.

Canada sucks when it comes to a justice system. I'm thinking it must be professional courtesy on the part of politicians to grant life to murderers and other hard core criminals.

Oh, wait a minute, I remember when they replaced the TV's at Bowden a few years ago with black and white ones so the prisoners couldn't be accused of having a soft life.

Rechh.....

[Black Dog]

Well, I don't know about the last bit... but I'm curious: why such a big fuss over this particular death row bum?

Well, there was the angle that he had turned his life around. Then there's the angle that there are doubts about the evidence used to convict him (Williams protested his innocence to the very end, even though a confession would have given him a better shot at clemency).

May I suggest actually reading up on a subject before posting?

He's a killer. From common killers like Wesley Cook (Mumia Abu-Jamal) to massmurderers like Castro and Saddam, the left often seems to sanctify murderers. Surely you have noticed this.

Whereas the right wing, wfor all their "culture of life" blather, can barely contain their glee at somebody's death, especially if that person is black. And you sure didn't hear a lot of whining from the right when Saddam was gassing Iranians.

Sadly, often these are the same people that support unlimited abortions--even late-term abortions.

Late term abortions make up a tiny perecentage of all abortions. But again, to some "conservatives", we should be saving white babys and kiling more n##gers.

I for one am not wanting to spend my tax dollars to house the likes of Paul Bernardo and Martin Gingras, Clifford Olson, etc. Those guys are wastes of skin and should be done away with too.

Okay, but what about the Morins, the Marshalls and Milgaards? Innocent men who would have swung under a policy of state-sanctioned revenge.

[kimmy]

Well, I don't know about the last bit... but I'm curious: why such a big fuss over this particular death row bum?

Well, there was the angle that he had turned his life around. Then there's the angle that there are doubts about the evidence used to convict him (Williams protested his innocence to the very end, even though a confession would have given him a better shot at clemency).

May I suggest actually reading up on a subject before posting?

I've read a bit on the subject, and nothing really struck me as being more compelling about this case than many other capital cases.

Tookie's lawyers and supporters say there is new evidence that should have been weighed before the execution. But people often turn up prior to the death penalty being carried out claiming to have information that could affect the verdict.

Tookie claimed to have turned his life around. But, I mean, doesn't everybody? If clemency was granted everytime somebody "found JEEEEEEzus" on death row, nobody would ever be executed. I mean, I'm pretty sure that Tookie wasn't the first death row inmate to "see the light" before his execution... so why was he a cause-celebre?

Tookie's black... but as has often been pointed out, a lot of death row inmates are black. Race can't be the thing that makes this case different.

The alleged new evidence, the supposed rehabilitation, the race issue... I don't buy that any of these factors are unique to this case, or any different from probably the bulk of capital cases in the US. So what got this case so much more attention than other capital cases in the US? The Governator? The childrens' books? Or just that as Crips co-founder he had more notoriety?

-k

[Black Dog]

I've read a bit on the subject, and nothing really struck me as being more compelling about this case than many other capital cases.

True. There's no doubt many other cases taht deserve similar attention.

[crazymf]

Society has a lot more respect for people who make the right choices without being coerced by a death penalty. Nothing Williams did after his conviction could possibly make any viable difference to the outcome of his sentence logically.

So, to me, having that point of view, the man was a criminal convicted of murdering 4 people and having lived a life of crime as well as leaving a legacy of a violent gang that has murdered how many more. There was no credible evidence presented otherwise to make the people in the know change their minds about him.

Good riddance and although it's a good start, they need to order some more needles and clean out the rest. Although who cares if they use clean needles for each convict.

CANADA!!!! Are you listening???? The death penalty stops ALL repeat offenses.

[Black Dog]

Society has a lot more respect for people who make the right choices without being coerced by a death penalty. Nothing Williams did after his conviction could possibly make any viable difference to the outcome of his sentence logically.

So people are irredeemable, then?

CANADA!!!! Are you listening???? The death penalty stops ALL repeat offenses.

So does life imprisonment, which is also cheaper. What's more, murder is the crime with the lowest recidivism rate (not to mention the fact that capital punishment as no affect whatsoever on murder rates).

And, as an added bonus, the lack of a death penalty keeps us from rubbing shoulders with such international human rights champs as Iran, China, North Korea, Sudan...

[Shakeyhands]

Society has a lot more respect for people who make the right choices without being coerced by a death penalty. Nothing Williams did after his conviction could possibly make any viable difference to the outcome of his sentence logically.

{some text here in the middle too}

CANADA!!!! Are you listening???? The death penalty stops ALL repeat offenses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely.. and as stated before we wouldn't have guys like Davild Milgaard and Guy Paul Morin reoffendin... oh wait....

[Black Dog]

Well, Shakey, I believe it was Jesus who said "You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs." Which I think came from the same speech where he talked about "an eye for en eye and a tooth for a tooth", which he delivered right before he bootf**ked a bunch of Roman soldiers to death. Granted, my theology might be a bit off. I get so confused, what with all this "Christian" whinging about aborted blobs of non-sentient tissue and simultaneous cheering for the state murder of living, breathing human beings.

[Slavik44]

CANADA!!!! Are you listening???? The death penalty stops ALL repeat offenses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah were listening, and we are responding with a HELL NO stop the bullshit.

Spending the rest of your life in prison until you die also prevents repeat offences and it is cheaper...It also prevents cases where the state murders completely inocent people. When Canada ended the death penalty half a dozen people on death row were found to be innocent. You know not guilty, as in about to be killed for a crime they did not commit, that is not a price we should be asking anyone to pay for an affect that has been declared as non-existent. The Death penalty shows no advantage in specific deterence over life in prison with no chance for parole. The claim of General detterence has also been negated, so in that sense it really isn't a crime fighting machine, so much as a crime commiting machine.

It is somewhat Ironic that in one breath Many Conservatives can condemn Canada for being in a group with Cuba and North Korea on the topic of Health Care but than turn around and condemn us for not joining dubya's Axis of Evil.

As we have no troops to fight the axis of evil we will stand by bush in spirit and refrain from joining the worlds hitlist of human rights offenders and notorious terrorists.

[crazymf]

That's all fine and dandy if only they'd keep prisoners in jail instead of paroling them early because of overcrowding etc.

We should open a season here on parolees and sex offenders. Maybe that would keep them in Quebec or Ontario.

When someone goes to prison in Canada, it's rarely forever. ie. Karla???

There's one bitch that should hang.

[theloniusfleabag]

I think there were grounds for Arnie to consider clemency, or else

So people are irredeemable, then?

this would be true.

Kimmy,

If clemency was granted everytime somebody "found JEEEEEEzus" on death row, nobody would ever be executed.

The consideration for clemency shouldn't based on what the convict does with his/her own life, but based on what they do for others (that is, their own lives become worth 'zero', but they can have a positive effect on others).

I would think that there must be some cases out there that might warrant clemency, or else there is no point in being 'taken alive'.

As to the lack of contrition, that might have been a major factor. He claimed innocence, mind you, so being contrite might have also been lying. Another case where this is a factor is the incarceration of Len Pelltier, who also claims to be innocent, (and the FBI was caught coercing testimony, fudging evidence, etc) so it would be disingenuous to be contrite for something you didn't do.

As the Chinese gov't says about their policy towards capital punishment, "Executing people educates others".

[kimmy]

Society has a lot more respect for people who make the right choices without being coerced by a death penalty. Nothing Williams did after his conviction could possibly make any viable difference to the outcome of his sentence logically.

So people are irredeemable, then?

Well, hypothetically... would you ever trust the likes of Paul Bernardo or Clifford Olson to walk free in society again? Personally, I wouldn't. No amount of rehabilitation or good behavior behind bars could ever convince me that the likes of them were "redeemed" in any functional sense. Only they themselves and whatever creator they believe in will ever know how redeemed they really are.

I'm not necessarily for the death penalty, but there are some who I believe should never ever see the light of day again. And unless I'm mistaken, Canada doesn't have a life sentence without possibility of parole. There's a chance that these pieces of crap could find themselves sitting before a parole board. And while one would hope that no parole board would ever be so stupid as to let these most notorious killers loose, what assurance to we have that they're equally vigilant with less famous cases?

-k

[Argus]

Society has a lot more respect for people who make the right choices without being coerced by a death penalty. Nothing Williams did after his conviction could possibly make any viable difference to the outcome of his sentence logically.

So people are irredeemable, then?

Some certainly are. Hard-core gangster killers among them.

CANADA!!!! Are you listening???? The death penalty stops ALL repeat offenses.

So does life imprisonment, which is also cheaper. What's more, murder is the crime with the lowest recidivism rate (not to mention the fact that capital punishment as no affect whatsoever on murder rates).

Games with statistics? The only reason execution costs more is the immense legal costs of all those government-paid lawyers fighting all those government-paid lawyers again and again and again. Why'd it take a quarter century to execute thhis bum? Get it right the first time and it'll cost very little. As for "lowest recidivism rate" gee, could that be because it's also the crime which has the longest incarceration rate, and thus people have far less chance to re-offend?

[Black Dog]

That's all fine and dandy if only they'd keep prisoners in jail instead of paroling them early because of overcrowding etc.

The solution to that is to re-think the strategy of banging people up in prison for any old offense. If jail was an effective deterrent for crime, then the Unites States, with the highest incraceration rate in the western world, would be a crime-free paradise.

Some certainly are. Hard-core gangster killers among them.

Well, you have the inside knowledge. Oh...wait.

Games with statistics? The only reason execution costs more is the immense legal costs of all those government-paid lawyers fighting all those government-paid lawyers again and again and again. Why'd it take a quarter century to execute thhis bum? Get it right the first time and it'll cost very little.

Shorten the process and you increase the chance that you top the wrong person. "Getting it right the first time" is generally impossible.

As for "lowest recidivism rate" gee, could that be because it's also the crime which has the longest incarceration rate, and thus people have far less chance to re-offend?

Well, one of the arguments for capital pounishment is that it stops killers from getting out and killing again. But the fact that such a thing seldom occurs (for whatever reason) scuttles that line of reasoning.

As the Chinese gov't says about their policy towards capital punishment, "Executing people educates others".

And we all know they are a great country to take our cues from.

[sharkman]

One reason that this became such a circus was just because the left fights every death sentence(that's wey he served 25 years waiting for it, appeal after appeal) that comes along, and this one was no different. Because celebrities got involved, though, gave them extra ammo. Tookie deserved to die, and he should have died 25 years ago.

[Guest eureka]

Thank God somebody fights them. Otherwise th scores of innocent men executed every year in the States would be doubled in number.

It is interesting that the States with the highest murder rates now are those that still freely execute "killers." And that most of those "killers" are disproportionately Blacks.

[FTA Lawyer]

I'm not necessarily for the death penalty, but there are some who I believe should never ever see the light of day again. And unless I'm mistaken, Canada doesn't have a life sentence without possibility of parole.  There's a chance that these pieces of crap could find themselves sitting before a parole board.  And while one would hope that no parole board would ever be so stupid as to let these most notorious killers loose, what assurance to we have that they're equally vigilant with less famous cases?

-k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

kimmy,

You are mistaken...we have dangerous offender applications:

Dangerous Offenders

The Dangerous Offender provisions in the Criminal Code have proven to be a useful mechanism for sentencing serious offenders who pose a high risk of committing further violent offences. Through a special hearing, such offenders may be given an indeterminate sentence. Dangerous Offender applications have been used successfully in approximately 150 cases. The Supreme Court of Canada has upheld this process as a valid form of sentencing.

Justice Canada

FTA

[crazymf]

Ok, how's this?

I'm not convinced Scott Peterson is guilty by the trail of circumstantial evidence he was convicted by. At least that's what I'm aware of. He's sitting on death row now.

I have a theory that Lacy found out he was banging that other woman and somehow committed suicide in the bay where she later washed up. Scott, being a truly remorseful person, ridden with guilt, takes the blame and sits on death row, waiting to rejoin his loving wife and child in the afterlife.

A stretch? The pieces fit.

Or he's a no good mudering bastard and should fry immediately.

[Black Dog]

One reason that this became such a circus was just because the left fights every death sentence(that's wey he served 25 years waiting for it, appeal after appeal) that comes along, and this one was no different. Because celebrities got involved, though, gave them extra ammo. Tookie deserved to die, and he should have died 25 years ago.

I wish I lived in the right wing cloud cuckoo land where judges, juries, prosecuters and police are infallible.

[Montgomery Burns]

One reason that this became such a circus was just because the left fights every death sentence(that's wey he served 25 years waiting for it, appeal after appeal) that comes along, and this one was no different. Because celebrities got involved, though, gave them extra ammo. Tookie deserved to die, and he should have died 25 years ago.

I wish I lived in the right wing cloud cuckoo land where judges, juries, prosecuters and police are infallible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wish I lived in "the reality-based community" where murdering gangsters and serious murderers like Saddam and Castro are infallible.

[Slavik44]

One reason that this became such a circus was just because the left fights every death sentence(that's wey he served 25 years waiting for it, appeal after appeal) that comes along, and this one was no different. Because celebrities got involved, though, gave them extra ammo. Tookie deserved to die, and he should have died 25 years ago.

I wish I lived in the right wing cloud cuckoo land where judges, juries, prosecuters and police are infallible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wish I lived in "the reality-based community" where murdering gangsters and serious murderers like Saddam and Castro are infallible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you belive your own bullshit?

[crazymf]

Twas the night before Christmas and all through San Quentin,

the crips were protesting, and liberals were ventin'.

The cyanide hung by the chamber wth care,

in hopes that the reaper soon would be there.

The inmates were nestled all snug in their bed ;

except for Old Tookie, who soon would be dead.

And me with my beer mug, dressed warm in my flannel,

had curled up to watch it, on the Fox News Channel.

I set up my TIVO to record the news station,

and thoroughly loved the momentous occasion.

It seemed lady justice had gotten her way,

and that there would be one less savage today.

When outside the jail there arose such a clatter,

the cameras had turned to see what was the matter.

When what to my civilized eyes did appear,

but a lineup of actors, all liberal, half queer.

The misguided freaks drew some curious looks,

as they proclaimed his innocence; clutching his books.

The tears then flew out from Sarandon's eyes,

as she nominated him again for the Nobel Peace Prize.

The actors were tethered to an ACLU sleigh,

all towing the line of the urban decay.

On Asner, on Penn, on liberal cop-haters,

On Sharpton, on Jesse and other race-baiters.

Then at 3:01 all curled up like a beetle,

Tookie cried like a #### as they gave him the needle.

When up from the actors there arose such a cry,

they had failed in their mission, and Tookie DID DIE !!

I heard Bill O'Reilly say, as I turned out my light,

Merry Christmas to all ... there was justice tonight !!