Fascist, The new F*** you when loosing an argument

[Dougie93]

11 minutes ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

 The number of governments that can trace themselves back to the Roman empire and the way it was run over its VAST several thousand year history is mind boggling. So calling fascism Roman is like calling Cro-Magnon Man Grandpa. While you are in fact most probably his descendant it is an over simplification of the truth of you heritage. I am trying very hard to think of a government that can not trace its roots to some era of the Roman Empire, and can not save the Asian ones that had no contact, yet an argument could be made about mirror governments. So while you are right it is a very general statement and designed to get reactionary's to well react. Not false but not totally true even and just true enough that you can argue the point with facts. So lets leave that one alone.

 

 The German French Spanish Greek and several other languages are rooted in Latin including English and all it variations. This is a fact most learn in middle school so ummm yup your are right.  

 As for the Germans not being a race, well the world is not ready for that one yet. Even though 10th grade Biology proves you right. The MSM and our political leaders are not ready to end racism yet because it is too powerful a weapon to point at their political rivals and say "He/She is a racist" and boom political career over whether the allegations are true or not. The reactionary public makes it impossible to be a lets wait and see if that is true or not type of person. 

So yeah all true statement just some are abit to general some are too forward and some are well old news

indeed

both the British Empire & the Third Reich were modelled on the Roman Empire

but do you view them as being identical ?

you see no difference between Adolf Hitler & Winston Churchill ?

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

The old news thing was about the language statement nothing else, and to answer the no rules things. This forum has rules society has rules it is called common curtesy and common sense.........

 

 

I just answered my own question didn't I?

I myself don't bother to argue on the internet

I'm just here to hang out with my friends & followers

I take the ad hominem as the price of doing business on the internet

if someone calls me a Fascist, I simply explain how & why I am not

Edited October 19, 2022 by Dougie93

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

indeed

both the British Empire & the Third Reich were modelled on the Roman Empire

but do you view them as being identical ?

you see no difference between Adolf Hitler & Winston Churchill ?

whoa now not what I said. I said "So calling fascism Roman is like calling Cro-Magnon Man Grandpa. While you are in fact most probably his descendant it is an over simplification of the truth of you heritage" What that means is that while you and that guy next to you most likely can infact call this ancient dude grandpa your familes have taken VASTLY different road to reach today. 

So yes the Roman empire was the cradle of fascism, but it was also the cradle of other forms of government as well

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

 

So yes the Roman empire was the cradle of fascism, but it was also the cradle of other forms of government as well

I clearly delineated which era of Rome was Fascist tho

1st century Julio-Claudian

again, the Fascist ideal is Augustus Caesar

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

There are huge difference between most of the governments that can trace its roots back to Rome. 

IF perchance you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew or Islamic you believe based on your holy book that everyone is a descendant of either Adam, or Noah.  With that statement of truth I can make the broad statement;

"Since these religions all believe we have the same ancestor they all advocate incest since we are all related."

Now I do not believe to be true at all it was just a example of a broad statement about lots of different things descending from one common ancient thing. I am not attacking someone religious beliefs or saying religious people are pedo's 

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I clearly delineated which era of Rome was Fascist tho

1st century Julio-Claudian

again, the Fascist ideal is Augustus Caesar

I did not study the emperors and there views as much as I studied their military movements and advances religion and how the Roman Senate worked. Didn't the Senate and Augustus kill Julius for being to much of a well fascist? Then just continued the practice?

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

There are huge difference between most of the governments that can trace its roots back to Rome. 

IF perchance you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew or Islamic you believe based on your holy book that everyone is a descendant of either Adam, or Noah.  With that statement of truth I can make the broad statement;

"Since these religions all believe we have the same ancestor they all advocate incest since we are all related."

Now I do not believe to be true at all it was just a example of a broad statement about lots of different things descending from one common ancient thing. I am not attacking someone religious beliefs or saying religious people are pedo's 

not sure of your point here

Fascists idolize Augustus Caesar 

whereas Marcus Aurelius was arguably not a Fascist

all Fascists are Roman, not all Romans are Fascists

what is so hard to understand about that ?

 

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

not sure of your point here

Fascists idolize Augustus Caesar 

whereas Marcus Aurelius was arguably not a Fascist

all Fascists are Roman, not all Romans are Fascists

what is so hard to understand about that ?

 

Your initial statement of "fascism is Roman" was a little to broad and general for me, I miss understood the part where you talked about Augustus and his followers, Technically I am starting to think we were both saying the same thing about this just differently and not understanding each other. I thought you were being to broad, you thought I was taking you too literal.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

I did not study the emperors and there views as much as I studied their military movements and advances religion and how the Roman Senate worked. Didn't the Senate and Augustus kill Julius for being to much of a well fascist? Then just continued the practice?

Augustus did not kill Julius Caesar

Augustus was Julius Caesar's grand nephew, Octavian

Julius Caesar was assassinated by the Senate, for attempting to elect foreigners (Gauls & Germans) to the Senate

so Caesar was the opposite of a Fascist, he was trying to reform the Senate

then Octavian waged war to avenge him

defeating Marc Anthony at Actium

after which Octavian was crowned the first Imperator : Ceasar Augustus

once in power however, Octavian became a Fascist,

he did not carry out his grand uncle's reforms, quite the opposite

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

Augustus did not kill Julius Caesar

Augustus was Julius Caesar's grand nephew, Octavian

Julius Caesar was assassinated by the Senate, for attempting to elect foreigners (Gauls & Germans) to the Senate

so Caesar was the opposite of a Fascist, he was trying to reform the Senate

then Octavian waged war to avenge him

defeating Marc Anthony at Actium

after which Octavian was crowned the first Imperator : Ceasar Augustus

once in power however, Octavian became a Fascist,

he did not carry out his grand uncle's reforms, quite the opposite

Ah yes I remember that better now. Thanks, this was just before the whole Holy Roman Empire era If I am remembering correctly. Weren't Augustus's fascist policies what allowed the Catholic church to easily slip in and "take charge" so that they could put an end to "heathen worshipers of Pagan Gods?"

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

Your initial statement of "fascism is Roman" was a little to broad and general for me, I miss understood the part where you talked about Augustus and his followers, Technically I am starting to think we were both saying the same thing about this just differently and not understanding each other. I thought you were being to broad, you thought I was taking you too literal.

well the Roman ceremonial axe with a handle of bundled sticks, called the Fasces :

was always their symbol of authority

it was like the Crown is to Britain

but when you are talking modern Fascism ?

like Franco, Hitler, Pinochet ?

they are all modelling themselves on Augustus Caesar

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

well the Roman ceremonial axe with a handle of bundled sticks, called the Fasces :

was always their symbol of authority

it was like the Crown is to Britain

but when you are talking modern Fascism ?

like Franco, Hitler, Pinochet ?

they are all modelling themselves on Augustus Caesar

I always wondered where they drew their inspiration from, guess I just did not look deep enough into fascism to find its true roots.

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

Ah yes I remember that better now. Thanks, this was just before the whole Holy Roman Empire era If I am remembering correctly. Weren't Augustus's fascist policies what allowed the Catholic church to easily slip in and "take charge" so that they could put an end to "heathen worshipers of Pagan Gods?"

the Holy Roman Empire was Germany from 1430 to 1808

in terms of the Roman Empire converting to Christianity

that the was Imperator Constantine in 313 AD

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

well the Roman ceremonial axe with a handle of bundled sticks, called the Fasces :

was always their symbol of authority

it was like the Crown is to Britain

That must drive you mad when people think it is the olive wreaths. 

That being said I thought the Axe was for War time only? hence the whole olive branch/wreathes mean peace thing?

Another thing my world history teacher got wrong I assume?

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

the Holy Roman Empire was Germany from 1430 to 1808

in terms of the Roman Empire converting to Christianity

that the was Imperator Constantine in 313 AD

Right but it was Augustus policies which were still in place that allowed Constantine to take power and how they got away with the persecution of the pagans in that era? 

[Dougie93]

13 minutes ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

That must drive you mad when people think it is the olive wreaths. 

That being said I thought the Axe was for War time only? hence the whole olive branch/wreathes mean peace thing?

Another thing my world history teacher got wrong I assume?

the Olive Wreath came from the Greeks

that was the award for winning in the Olympics

the original Gold Medal

the Fasces was not for wartime

what made it for wartime, is the Imperator Augustus

Imperator simply meant "Commander-in-Chief", the supreme Roman military rank

this has become "Emperor" in English

but the people called him "Caesar" after his grand uncle,  in Russian:  Czar

Augustus however slyly never claimed to be all powerful

he ran things fascistically behind the scenes in secret

he only ever called himself Princeps Civitatus : "First Citizen"

in English this has become "Prince"

Edited October 19, 2022 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

Right but it was Augustus policies which were still in place that allowed Constantine to take power and how they got away with the persecution of the pagans in that era? 

everything shifted very quickly

after Jesus was crucified, He became exponentially powerful

the Christians became the majority in very short order in historical terms

Constantine was trying to save the Empire, by bending to the will of the masses

Christ was invincible, Constantine was swept up in it too

 

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

in English this has become "Prince"

 

I knew about them stealing the wreaths from Greece, and about how we got Emperor form Rome, but the Prince thing was new. huh.... makes today a good day learned something

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

I knew about them stealing the wreaths from Greece, and about how we got Emperor form Rome, but the Prince thing was new. huh.... makes today a good day learned something

we have imposed the title "Emperor" post facto, we the British impose that title on them from centuries later

that was the military rank of the Princeps

but the Princeps did not call themselves that at the time

it's pronounced like "Prin-Keps" by the way, there is no soft "C" in Latin, the French made the soft "C"

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

I knew about them stealing the wreaths from Greece,

they didn't steal it

the Romans were Greeks

the Romans were Greeks fleeing the civil wars in Greece

these military veterans established a toll bridge over the river Tiber

this eventually grew to be Rome

same way the German Franks founded France, over the river Seine,  by the way

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

they didn't steal it

the Romans were Greeks

the Romans were Greeks fleeing the civil wars in Greece

these military veterans established a toll bridge over the river Tiber

this eventually grew to be Rome

same way the German Franks founded France, over the river Seine,  by the way

I stand corrected inherited the olive wreaths from Greece would have been a more correct statement.

Well actually I sit corrected hard to stand for long since my stroke.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Jedi_Master_Tallyn

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

I stand corrected inherited the olive wreaths from Greece would have been a more correct statement.

Well actually I sit corrected hard to stand for long since my stroke.

I do not seek to correct

only to illuminate

to orient yourself to this time : it was a Greek world, the Greeks were the dominant Hegenomy

Rome was founded by the Greeks, like America was founded by the British

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I do not seek to correct

only to illuminate

I take no offense, and as per our communism talk earlier demonstrated, I hope I am adult enough to admit when I am wrong. I said they stole it from the Greeks, That was incorrect, and you showed evidence and illuminated the error while supplying the correct information. As well as citing other examples of similar happenings in history. 

I was wrong I can admit that, it is not arrogance that drives you in this but knowledge, that I can wholly respect.

For you it was not about right or wrong correct or incorrect it was about informing someone of the proper course of events. Which I will freely admit you seem to have a greater knowledge than I do. My knowledge of this era comes from a hobby I was only able to pick and prod seldomly. Yours seems to come from education. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Jedi_Master_Tallyn

[Jedi_Master_Tallyn]

Ok I got what you were referencing in every video but that last Elvis one. 

What does the Yellow Rose of Texas or the Eyes of Texas have to do with our discussion?

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Jedi_Master_Tallyn said:

I take no offense, and as per our communism talk earlier demonstrated, I hope I am adult enough to admit when I am wrong. I said they stole it from the Greeks, That was incorrect, and you showed evidence and illuminated the error while supplying the correct information. As well as citing other examples of similar happenings in history. 

I was wrong I can admit that, it is not arrogance that drives you in this but knowledge, that I can wholly respect.

For you it was not about right or wrong correct or incorrect it was about informing someone of the proper course of events. Which I will freely admit you seem to have a greater knowledge than I do. My knowledge of this era comes from a hobby I was only able to pick and prod seldomly. Yours seems to come from education. 

you're not wrong

again, I don't argue on the internet

I am not trying to prove anything

this is a free market of ideas

I simply try to pass on what useful information I can

it's the same with Fascism

I assert that it is a danger, a mortal peril, a catastrophe waiting to happen

as a Christian, I do decry it as evil

all I say is : know your enemy

Augustus Caesar, Tiberius Caesar, Claudius Caesar,  Germanicus Caesar, Nero Caesar

Jesus of Nazareth brought them down : we must not let them rise again