Liberal Promises to Spend Sexy Billions

[August1991]

I'm curious to know how much the Liberals have promised, and to whom. This thread is an attempt to tally.

In the spirit of the man who inspired a Conrad Black biography, Monsieur Duplessis donne à sa province.

(Curious? Check this. You have to see Donald Pilon flip the chart to show $14,365,344 and explain that too many charts with round numbers like $23 million aren't credible.)

----

I'm only curious about recent announcements about how much and who. The Liberals have been messy about "when". Whether anyone will get anything, or whether the money was "pre-announced" is irrelevant. This is the fun world of PR.

Let's see.

KELOWNA, British Columbia, Nov 25 (Reuters) - Government and aboriginal leaders endorsed a C$5 billion ($4.3 billion) plan on Friday aimed at dramatically easing the dire povertyfaced by Canada's native peoples within a decade.

Reuters

Nearly $7 billion was handed out Wednesday alone to people for labour market training, grains and oilseeds producers, cash-starved arts groups and perhaps the most deserving group of all — First Nations people who suffered abuse in residential schools.

But the Grits didn’t stop there. Yesterday, they handed out $4 billion for native housing, education and health as well as money for the forestry industry and mad cow disease research. The tap, which appears to have been left on full blast while the Grits count down to Monday’s expected vote of non-confidence in the House of Commons, has poured out approximately 40 different spending commitments worth $20 billion.

To put that in perspective, it’s about 10 times what the United States spends each month fighting the war in Iraq and about three times as much as the Manitoba government spends on all its services in a year. It’s a reckless spending spree that rips the credibility right out of the oft-peddled notion that Prime Minister Paul Martin and his Liberal government run a tight fiscal ship.

Brandon Sun

By late Wednesday morning, the government had already committed to more than C$2.8 billion. That was on top of C$4 billion to C$5 billion for military aircraft on Tuesday.

Close to C$2 billion will be used to compensate thousands of native Indians who say they were sexually and physically abused as children at church-run residential schools.

Agriculture Minister Andy Mitchell offered C$755 million to grain and oilseeds farmers who he said were finding it difficult to compete because of the high Canadian dollar and U.S. subsidies.

Metro News

The Canada Council for the Arts is the biggest winner in a funding bonanza announced by the federal government, doubling its budget to $301 million over three years.

CBC

How much is that? $20 billion? Aboriginals seem to win but what's this about corn growers?

[Riverwind]

I'm curious to know how much the Liberals have promised, and to whom.  This thread is an attempt to tally.

Whatever it adds up to it is insane. $2 billion for aboriginals just attended residential schools and were not subject to any physical or sexual abuse is aburd. Payments to victims I can understand: payments just for attending the schools is just dumb policy that just ensures the Liberals keep those northern ridings. I wonder how per per vote that is?

Maybe I should put my vote up for sale on e-bay. I wonder how much martin woudl pay for it?

[newbie]

$2 billion for aboriginals just attended residential schools and were not subject to any physical or sexual abuse is aburd. Payments to victims I can understand: payments just for attending the schools is just dumb policy that just ensures the Liberals keep those northern ridings....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't think being taken out of your home, tossed into a foreign environment, forced to speak another language and then being physically or mentally abused is not enough to qualify?

[Riverwind]

You don't think being taken out of your home, tossed into a foreign environment, forced to speak another language and then being physically or mentally abused is not enough to qualify?

Revisionist thinking. The premise of the schools was to educate native children and give them economic opportunities that they would not have if they stayed on the reserves - a sensible idea even today.

Some natives actually benefited from the experience and say so today - but you won't hear them on media which has bought into the native victim act.

[August1991]

You don't think being taken out of your home, tossed into a foreign environment, forced to speak another language and then being physically or mentally abused is not enough to qualify?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How much should people (often immigrants) pay today to other people for a sin committed by still other people (now dead)? Will money solve the problem?

Where does this end? Nelson Mandela was right. This is not about money; it is about justice.

Or rather, it is about our future. I suspect that more than anything, no one wants any more children to live though such a system. Let us all ensure that this does not happen again.

So, two points:

First, when the Liberals pay out big bucks to Band Chiefs, you should know it's a fraud. Mandela was right and honest in his ways - money isn't the issue.

Second, let us be careful with fad social theories. Then, it was Residential Schools. Now, it may be State Day Care. God knows how much our grandchildren will have to pay for our errors.

[newbie]

You don't think being taken out of your home, tossed into a foreign environment, forced to speak another language and then being physically or mentally abused is not enough to qualify?

Revisionist thinking. The premise of the schools was to educate native children and give them economic opportunities that they would not have if they stayed on the reserves - a sensible idea even today.

Some natives actually benefited from the experience and say so today - but you won't hear them on media which has bought into the native victim act.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sadly, this did not turn out to be the case. Interesting you call me a revisionist. There are far too many websites and actual stories of abuse to deny your claim. But here are some of the highlites:

From http://www.canadiana.org/citm/specifique/abresschools_e.html

These schools were the source of the many problems and concerns:

* They were breeding grounds for potentially fatal diseases like smallpox and tuberculosis.

* Students were not allowed to practice Aboriginal customs or speak Aboriginal languages.

* They were poorly maintained to the point of posing serious safety and other health hazards.

* They were the source of great animosity between the government and Aboriginal parents who refused to let their children be taken away from them.

* They were poorly equipped to properly clothe students, particularly during the winter months.

* They were source of dangerous fires often deliberately set by problem children.

* The food served at these schools were particularly lacking in nutritional value.

* The work was physically demanding and harsh on the students.

* Teachers were often so ill equipped that they could not teach students much beyond completely alien religious ideologies.

* They were the source of great absenteeism, on both the students and teachers' parts alike

More links:

http://www.afn.ca/residentialschools/

http://www.lcc.gc.ca/research_project/ica/..._execsum_en.pdf

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/gs/schl_e.html

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/native-res...al/index-e.html

http://www.irsr-rqpi.gc.ca/english/historical_events.html

Where does this end?  Nelson Mandela was right.  This is not about money; it is about justice.

  Let us all ensure that this does not happen again.

Second, let us be careful with fad social theories. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. It's not about the money August. It's a little thing called healing.

2. Unforuntately this is still happening in the Catholic Church today

3. This is hardly a "fad social theory." This has been an ongoing process for many, many years. Look it up.

[Guest eureka]

Your sources are just a tad mathematically challenged, August. Either that or deliberately misleading their readers.

$20 billion may be 10 times what the US spends on the Iraq war in a month, as though that wre an analogous situation, but it is $20 billion over five years not a month. That is over sixty months,and, by my accounting, is a great deal less. In fact, it is entirely inadequate for the purposes.

The amount to be spent on aboriginals is, roughly, one tenth of what the Commission on Aboriginal affairs recommeneded just a few years ago. It is a start on remedying the most shameful condition in Canada but only a start. Of otself, it will not nearly fix the problems.

[Argus]

Your sources are just a tad mathematically challenged, August. Either that or deliberately misleading their readers.

$20 billion may be 10 times what the US spends on the Iraq war in a month, as though that wre an analogous situation, but it is $20 billion over five years not a month. That is over sixty months,and,  by my accounting, is a great deal less. In fact, it is entirely inadequate for the purposes.

The amount to be spent on aboriginals is, roughly, one tenth of what the Commission on Aboriginal affairs recommeneded just a few years ago. It is a start on remedying the most shameful condition in Canada but only a start. Of otself, it will not nearly fix the problems.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just throw money at it, the more money the better. That's always the answer from the Left. What I'd do is stop making any payment to band chiefs or Native governments. Get rid of all government jobs tasked with "looking after" natives. Give the money directly to natives. Let local band councils tax their citizens like every other form of government, and convince the voters their services are worth the taxes.

[Argus]

Liberal spending promises thus far. Not counting yesterday

Liberal election promises to date

[Argus]

Water problems at Kashechewan reserve due to incompetent management by local band.

The water treatment plant, paid for by the federal government, ie, you and me, is less than a decade old. Of course, it was given to the natives to maintain. If it weren't there'd be protests about bringing in white people to do jobs on the reserve when there are so few jobs there. However, as we all know, the natives did a sloppy job of maintaining the plant, including not replacing that $30 part, and not putting in the right amount of chlorine. According to an investigation, they also purchased, illegally, substandard versions of the chemicals needed, versions not permitted in Ontario water treatment plants. They lost the manuals, probably using them for toilet paper or something, and the plant workers were poorly trained. The band chief, of course, says "not our fault", pleading poverty, but the federal govenrment (that's you and me) gives the band money to maintain the plant properly and train the operators. The band council just spends it on other things.

Toronto Star

It's really, if you think about it, an indictment of the corrupt and incompetent native government there, but that council is no different than most of the others. Here we build them a water treatment plant, and pay them to maintain it, and we're supposed to be the big evil old white people at fault when they wind up screwing it up and destroying their own water supply. Right.

[Guest eureka]

I think you could read the article a little moew thoughtfully. It outlines other problems than band corruption or mismanagement.

That might be a little more useful than your usual reflex response that "the Left" wants to throw more money.

You might also consider that a Federal Commission, nothing to do with the "Left," saw the need for $38 billion to be spent on bringing the natives out of third world standards.

[Argus]

I think you could read the article a little moew thoughtfully. It outlines other problems than band corruption or mismanagement.

Of course there are problems. I was talking about the water problems, which are because the band council couldn't be bothered to keep it up properly, used the wrong chemicals, didn't train the idiots it put in there - who were clearly idiots, but almost certainly related to the chief.

That might be a little more useful than your usual reflex response that "the Left" wants to throw more money.

Maybe if the left had any instinct or ideas other than to throw money at every problem without a single thought about where it comes from. Spend ten times more? Do you have any idea how much that would be? Do you even pay taxes?

You might also consider that a Federal Commission, nothing to do with the "Left," saw the need for $38 billion to be spent on bringing the natives out of third world standards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, because federal commisions never have anything to do with the left, like that last commision on health care, for example, run by a former NDP politician.

Which said the problems could be fixed if we just threw more money at them, lots and lots more money.

[scribblet]

I posted this in another thread, maybe it should have been here:

According to the Ottawa Citizen, $2.6-billion-a-day spending habit this week may have backfired, the federal government was forced to acknowledge yesterday a $200-million error in its recent fiscal update. A tracking of government spending promises by CanWest News Service since Monday shows $13.02 billion in 79 announcements this week. Finance Minister Ralph Goodale said during yesterday's Question Period that the federal government provided only $538 million for climate-change funding in the Canada-Ontario agreement signed in May despite the $738-million figure found in the fiscal update document. A senior Finance official explained the error was created by the "accidental" addition of an extra $200 million in funding for the year 2010-11. Bloc Québécois leader Gilles Duceppe, who brought the error to the House's attention, wondered how many more millions of dollars were overspent during this week's "flood" of spending announcements .

[Guest eureka]

It was not the responsibility of the Band Council to train them, Argus. It is the responsibility of government to provide training facilities and to ensure that trained personnel are available.

That is Walkerton's lesson.

[BHS]

eureka:

Funny, I don't feel any shame about the way aboriginal children were treated in religious schools, any more than either of us does about how non-aboriginal childred were treated in religious schools (which isn't a sexy enough issue to make the CBC). I guess, since we're each of us voting citizens with an equal say in how things should be, that my sense of self-righteousness and lack of concern cancels out your self-loathing.

newbie:

In all of your research I guess you missed the part where native leaders were all for residential schools back in the day, and in some cases fought to keep them open when they were to be closed. Selective reading, maybe.

[August1991]

1. It's not about the money August. It's a little thing called healing.

2. Unforuntately this is still happening in the Catholic Church today

3. This is hardly a "fad social theory." This has been an ongoing process for many, many years. Look it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. That was my point.

2. Evidence?

3. My reference to "fad social theory" was that in the 1950s, all "progressive" people thought residential schools were the best way to "help" these poor Indians. Now, "progressive" people see this as a terrible injustice.

The true error is to give power to authorities and let them decide for us. I then offered as an example the current "progressive" idea to have a national day care programme. In 50 years, how will that be perceived?

Your sources are just a tad mathematically challenged, August. Either that or deliberately misleading their readers.

I think you missed the whole point of the exercice, evident in the thread's reference to "sexy billions". Like Duplessis, the federal Liberals are pulling numbers out of thin air as long as they look big.

The comparison goes further - our current federal Liberal government operates very much like Duplessis. The opposition is demonized and presented to be incompetent. The government buys off anyone it needs too. This is politics at the rawest level.

The Duplessis regime came crashing down eventually. I have argued that the Liberal Party method of holding the country together is on a direct collision course with reality.

[Riverwind]

It was not the responsibility of the Band Council to train them, Argus. It is the responsibility of government to provide training facilities and to ensure that trained personnel are available.

Actually, the problems were more likely caused by incompetance - not lack of training. The so-called engineering problem that placed the water intake near the sewage lagoon was not an engineering problem - it was a beaver problem. The band was told they needed to remove beaver dams that blocked the flow of the river. The band ignored those warnings.

[Guest eureka]

It does go to training, Sparhawk. The operators have been shown to have had no training and no naterial to instruct them. They had no idea what to do about anything.

What has been left out of the latest reports is that the beaver damas were on another creek: it was not just a backing up of the one that supplied the water. I would suggest that there was an engineering oversight.

[newbie]

1. It's not about the money August. It's a little thing called healing.

2. Unforuntately this is still happening in the Catholic Church today

3. This is hardly a "fad social theory." This has been an ongoing process for many, many years. Look it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. That was my point.

2. Evidence?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Evidence? Clearly you must have been living on another planet for the last few years. This is a world wide problem. I'm not going to do your homework for you, other than to suggest you talk to some victims. Ask Bishop Henry of Calgary about taking on a pedophile priest recently, and then having to ship him "away" when it was discovered. http://www.nopedo.org/english/pages/actualite8.html.

Father Frank Van Tiegham, of southern Alberta, was tried and convicted in the mid 1990's for sexual abuse.

My wife was a victim of the results of Henry's predecessor, Bishop O'Byrne, who destroyed the lives of countless young boys and girls. For more education, try this link:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Rel...SS/sexabuse.htm

The cover-up of this activity is massive, and I know first hand of many details but am under a court-ordered censor as a condition of my wife's settlement, which is further victimization.

[newbie]

In all of your research I guess you missed the part where native leaders were all for residential schools back in the day, and in some cases fought to keep them open when they were to be closed. Selective reading, maybe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Proof?

[Argus]

It was not the responsibility of the Band Council to train them, Argus. It is the responsibility of government to provide training facilities and to ensure that trained personnel are available.

That is Walkerton's lesson.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I'm quoting the Star, which said both that the band chief said they didn't have money to send them for training, and that the government provided money for the operation, upkeep and training, but that band councils are free to use the money on anything they choose. That is as close as the Star will come to criticising natives, by saying without saying it that they were given enough money for upkeep and chose not to spend it.

[August1991]

Evidence? Clearly you must have been living on another planet for the last few years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a strange discussion when I find myself defending the Catholic Church.

Newbie, you implied that the Catholic Church was engaged in such activities today, meaning in 2005. Your links refer to cases in the 1980s. (No less horrific but not the point of my question for evidence.)

[newbie]

Evidence? Clearly you must have been living on another planet for the last few years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a strange discussion when I find myself defending the Catholic Church.

Newbie, you implied that the Catholic Church was engaged in such activities today, meaning in 2005. Your links refer to cases in the 1980s. (No less horrific but not the point of my question for evidence.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

August, they are still covering up. To me that is part of the victimization and abuse. Plus, given their terrible abuse record, do you suggest that pedophilia has disappeared from this organization just because the press can't report it? Or that victims automatically come forward? Or that victims cannot, under law suit, discuss such events? No, I have no absolute proof that a priest on this day abused someone; but I do know they are hiding evidence and not being truthful about their actions. I heard such testimony less than a year ago, and knowing this church from the inside I can tell you that no efforts are being made to change policy on how they handle sexual abuse or its victims. My wife has yet to receive an apology, even after the priest confessed in court.

[August1991]

August, they are still covering up. To me that is part of the victimization and abuse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point.

While I agree having an apology is important, people usually get over this in their own minds in their own ways.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

QUOTE(newbie @ Nov 27 2005, 11:50 PM)

August, they are still covering up. To me that is part of the victimization and abuse.

Good point.

While I agree having an apology is important, people usually get over this in their own minds in their own ways.

More is required than an apology, August. I don't mean reparations, either. Acknowledgement and cessation are required.

Like the alcoholic, apologizing doesn't address the primary issue.