Money - what is your take on it?

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

1. There is always the Foreign Currency Exchange.  They can print the equivalent amount in Togo Francs.

2. But this is not the issue at hand.   

1. This wouldn't work

2. Ok let's get back to it then.

[cougar]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. This wouldn't work

2. Ok let's get back to it then.

1. Why not ???

2. Money that is accumulated in many fat accounts is worthless. It is a form of control but has no real buying power.

[Michael Hardner]

9 hours ago, cougar said:

1. Why not ???

2. Money that is accumulated in many fat accounts is worthless. It is a form of control but has no real buying power.

1. The currency would collapse and be worth nothing.  Imagine a guy walking into your store and writing you a check for a billion dollars... you would be suspicious also.
2. For the people who have it, they can buy a lot though.

[cougar]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. The currency would collapse and be worth nothing.  Imagine a guy walking into your store and writing you a check for a billion dollars... you would be suspicious also.
2. For the people who have it, they can buy a lot though.

1. It has already collapsed, the US dollar included.  The only back up is weapons and threats.  How much is US national debt?

2. Buy what ????  One person - one mouth, can be in only one place at any given time.  If they wanted to just start buying whatever they could get their hands on, there will be nothing left for the rest of us and the revolution starts with them losing their status and power.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, cougar said:

1. It has already collapsed, the US dollar included.   

2. Buy what ???? 

1. No we were talking about Togo printing $1T.  The US dollar has not collapsed.
2. They can buy assets - companies for example.

[cougar]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No we were talking about Togo printing $1T.  The US dollar has not collapsed.
2. They can buy assets - companies for example.

1. No ?    See what you can buy with the trillions in US national debt - you can buy the whole continent over, but the continent already has owners.  The only difference between Togo and the US is in military strength and production capabilities.

2. "Companies" is another bogus asset.  An imaginary asset, designed to supposedly generate more of the imaginary money.  Look at Facebook or whatever its new name is - its value dropped by 30% in a few days.  Air in; air out.

Edited February 17, 2022 by cougar

[Michael Hardner]

36 minutes ago, cougar said:

1.   No ?    See what you can buy with the trillions in US national debt - you can buy the whole continent over,

2.  The only difference between Togo and the US is in military strength and production capabilities.

3. "Companies" is another bogus asset.  An imaginary asset, designed to supposedly generate more of the imaginary money.  Look at Facebook or whatever its new name is - its value dropped by 30% in a few days.  Air in; air out.

1. US debt could barely buy the continental states alone so you are wrong
https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-REB-32078#:~:text=Or%2C heck%2C how much is,and the District of Columbia.

2. Well those are not the only differences, and - whoa - US GDP is in the neighbourhood of 5000X that of Togo so not something to be dismissed either.

3.  Give me all of your imaginary money then.  I will even do a dance for you in exchange.

 

[cougar]

28 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. US debt could barely buy the continental states alone so you are wrong
https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-REB-32078#:~:text=Or%2C heck%2C how much is,and the District of Columbia.

2. Well those are not the only differences, and - whoa - US GDP is in the neighbourhood of 5000X that of Togo so not something to be dismissed either.

3.  Give me all of your imaginary money then.  I will even do a dance for you in exchange.

 

1.  So what was the figure?  $22.9 trillion.  The US national debt in 2021 is reported at $29.62 trillion.  This is the debt of the nation, not the households who own their properties.  So if you had the $29.62 trillion, what were you going to buy with it? Can't buy the US because it already has owners. The picture in every country is about the same.

2. irrelevant to our discussion

3. We've been down this rabbit hole before.  It is not the money in your or mine pocket that is worthless.  It is those big figures that are worthless because there is nothing left to buy with it - Start selling those far away galaxies with the Martians on them, maybe?  Or , you know what, start selling the air/oxygen - it is very, very valuable as anyone can find out in just seconds. But how can you sell something that is not only yours?  They did it with the land, why not with the air?

Edited February 17, 2022 by cougar

[Michael Hardner]

19 minutes ago, cougar said:

1.   So if you had the $29.62 trillion, what were you going to buy with it? Can't buy the US because it already has owners.  

2. irrelevant to our discussion

3. Start selling those far away galaxies with the Martians on them, maybe? 

4. Or , you know what, start selling the air/oxygen - it is very, very valuable as anyone can find out in just seconds.

5. But how can you sell something that is not only yours?  They did it with the land, why not with the air?

1.   Lots of people would sell and the market says everything have a price.  If you upped your offer a little, say $35T, then you'd probably close once inspection (of the USA) passed

https://www.realtor.com/

2.   We're discussing economics and you said there's no economic difference between Togo and the USA didn't you ? 
If you want to compare - Togo is a little smaller than West Virginia, but has 29 fewer Arby's Restaurants, that number being zero Arby's restaurants.

3.    If you want to buy galaxies, you had really better consider upkeep costs and local taxes.

4.  I just held my breath for 30 seconds - my God you're right ! 

5. You have to show a deed for your air before you sell, simple.

[cougar]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.   Lots of people would sell and the market says everything have a price.  If you upped your offer a little, say $35T, then you'd probably close once inspection (of the USA) passed

https://www.realtor.com/

2.   We're discussing economics and you said there's no economic difference between Togo and the USA didn't you ? 
If you want to compare - Togo is a little smaller than West Virginia, but has 29 fewer Arby's Restaurants, that number being zero Arby's restaurants.

3.    If you want to buy galaxies, you had really better consider upkeep costs and local taxes.

4.  I just held my breath for 30 seconds - my God you're right ! 

5. You have to show a deed for your air before you sell, simple.

1.  Do you miss the point deliberately?  If they sell, they will have the trillions that they cannot spend, unless those are worthless by then.  And where exactly is the whole US nation going to live after they have sold the land under their feet?  In space?  Renting a spaceship?

2.  I was talking Tigers, you started talking Togo.  Now you are going so far off on a tangent here that as I said, this point has become irrelevant.   I wanted to point out you can always print more money or get further in debt, but you cannot produce more tigers.

3....this was supposed to be back up to point 1.  - money in trillions of dollars is useless.  Money tied to physical assets is useless.

4.5.6..........  I know you like to go on tangents like a hedgehog, but lets bring all of these back together to point 1.

 

Appreciate you discussing this money subject with me, but I wonder why we never seem to have an "expert" or "economist" to chime in and disprove what I write above and give a sensible explanation of things.  I bet they either just go by their books as they know nothing else and do not think any further, or they pretend their knowledge and time is so valuable that they can't share anything in a public forum for free.

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, cougar said:

1.  Do you miss the point deliberately? 

2. If they sell, they will have the trillions that they cannot spend, unless those are worthless by then. 

3. And where exactly is the whole US nation going to live after they have sold the land under their feet?  In space?  Renting a spaceship?

4. I wanted to point out you can always print more money or get further in debt, but you cannot produce more tigers.

5. Money in trillions of dollars is useless.  Money tied to physical assets is useless.

6. I know you like to go on tangents like a hedgehog, but lets bring all of these back together to point 1.

 

Appreciate you discussing this money subject with me, but I wonder why we never seem to have an "expert" or "economist" to chime in and disprove what I write above and give a sensible explanation of things.  I bet they either just go by their books as they know nothing else and do not think any further, or they pretend their knowledge and time is so valuable that they can't share anything in a public forum for free.

1.   If I answered 'no' it seems like 'did you stop beating your wife ?' type of thing
2. Cannot spend why ?
3. Are you American ?  Because it would be an American thing to assume that if you can't live in America you must live in space.
4. You can produce tigers.  And you can't go into infinite debt.
5. Why ?  Give me your money and your car if you think they're worthless
6. Ok - the answer is no then.

[cougar]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.   If I answered 'no' it seems like 'did you stop beating your wife ?' type of thing
2. Cannot spend why ?
3. Are you American ?  Because it would be an American thing to assume that if you can't live in America you must live in space.
4. You can produce tigers.  And you can't go into infinite debt.
5. Why ?  Give me your money and your car if you think they're worthless
6. Ok - the answer is no then.

Go with 7 points next time, for good luck.

Your are probably eating popcorn and just contradicting me, for the sake of it.  Nothing in your arguments makes any logical or mathematical sense, which makes me think, you can't be that stupid and you are only posting to pull my leg.   

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, cougar said:

1. Your [sic] are probably eating popcorn and just contradicting me, for the sake of it. 
2. Nothing in your arguments makes any logical or mathematical sense,
3. which makes me think, you can't be that stupid and you are only posting to pull my leg.   

1.  No I'm really trying to see where you are going with it.
2.  I don't think I'm making arguments, but instead I am answering your questions and letting you lead.
3. You are the one answering the questions.  Saying 'money has no value' would prompt a typical response of "that is the stupidest thing I ever heard' and surely you know that.  But I am actually catering to your POV and responding with kindness.  And here you are still getting mad.  Oh well.

[cougar]

17 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  No I'm really trying to see where you are going with it.
2.  I don't think I'm making arguments, but instead I am answering your questions and letting you lead.
3. You are the one answering the questions.  Saying 'money has no value' would prompt a typical response of "that is the stupidest thing I ever heard' and surely you know that.  But I am actually catering to your POV and responding with kindness.  And here you are still getting mad.  Oh well.

OK, So can we not agree with the obvious - the $29 trillion of national debt money cannot buy the US land because it has its owners and the owners will have no place to live after their pockets have been filled with money after the sale?

Can we not agree the $29 trillion cannot buy food, because there is no amount of food available for this kind of money?

 

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, cougar said:

1. So can we not agree with the obvious - the $29 trillion of national debt money cannot buy the US land because it has its owners and the owners will have no place to live after their pockets have been filled with money after the sale?

2. Can we not agree the $29 trillion cannot buy food, because there is no amount of food available for this kind of money?

 

1. Well, that's hard to say.  We're already in a fantasy when we talk about purchasing the USA, so why say it's because the sellers (all of America) would have to rent or move elsewhere ?

It's like saying Peppa Pig is impossible because pigs wouldn't have British accents.

2. But if you have a lot of money, you can buy all there is with part of it ?  

Donald Trump is a billionaire and he eats Big Macs.

[cougar]

56 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Well, that's hard to say.  We're already in a fantasy when we talk about purchasing the USA, so why say it's because the sellers (all of America) would have to rent or move elsewhere ?

It's like saying Peppa Pig is impossible because pigs wouldn't have British accents.

2. But if you have a lot of money, you can buy all there is with part of it ?  

Donald Trump is a billionaire and he eats Big Macs.

1. It is no fantasy, but a basic calculation.  You need to be able to buy something with your money in order for it to have value. Agree? Real estate, goods, services, food. Agree?  If you can\t buy real estate because all land is bought by you or others already, you can buy what? Services?  Someone scratching your back; taking you to the outer space and back, food, which will get spoiled because you can't eat it all, but it will leave many others without food

2. You buy all there is, which , as I said , is of no use to you and will cause a revolution, but then you will still be stuck with a lot of leftover money that again you can't spend.  Money is like a hot potato - you want to use it, so the trade of your work is converted into food, goods and services you need.   When you have a big excess, this leaves you with just a number which may not be convertible into anything useful.

Think about interest.  You charge someone interest and you have generated money out of thin air.  But then you expect this money to buy you a product (material).  Products don't appear out of thin air.  You have only that much mass on Earth and you will not get any more, unless we get hit by a major meteorite, which most definitely will end our scams on this planet

"Donald Trump is a billionaire and he eats Big Macs."      What does this have to do with anything ???  WTF?

[Michael Hardner]

17 hours ago, cougar said:

1. It is no fantasy, but a basic calculation.  You need to be able to buy something with your money in order for it to have value. Agree? Real estate, goods, services, food. Agree?  If you can\t buy real estate because all land is bought by you or others already, you can buy what? Services?  Someone scratching your back; taking you to the outer space and back, food, which will get spoiled because you can't eat it all, but it will leave many others without food

2. You buy all there is, which , as I said , is of no use to you and will cause a revolution, but then you will still be stuck with a lot of leftover money that again you can't spend.  Money is like a hot potato - you want to use it, so the trade of your work is converted into food, goods and services you need.   When you have a big excess, this leaves you with just a number which may not be convertible into anything useful.

Think about interest.  You charge someone interest and you have generated money out of thin air.  But then you expect this money to buy you a product (material).  Products don't appear out of thin air.  You have only that much mass on Earth and you will not get any more, unless we get hit by a major meteorite, which most definitely will end our scams on this planet

3. "Donald Trump is a billionaire and he eats Big Macs."      What does this have to do with anything ???  WTF?

1. 2. Are you trying to say that when capital becomes extremely concentrated it's not good for society?

3. It means having a Billion Dollars gives you the ability to buy food.  The points you are trying to make are a little sideways - of course you can buy food if you have $27T

[cougar]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. 2. Are you trying to say that when capital becomes extremely concentrated it's not good for society?

3. It means having a Billion Dollars gives you the ability to buy food.  The points you are trying to make are a little sideways - of course you can buy food if you have $27T

I am not too sure you follow.    Let's leave it to others to see what they have to say.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

I am not too sure you follow.    Let's leave it to others to see what they have to say.

Why not try again ? ?