Toronto or Wisconsin

[Jim jim4]

Hello everyone, I don't know if this topic is the right for this issue, but I didn't knew where else to post it. I'm from Europe and my family and me had some thoughts about moving in the North USA (90% Wisconsin) or in Toronto, for now we are talking only about my case as I'm an adult (and after me my parents may come too), first of all, let's ask about Canada. What's the easiest way to go there if I don't have relatives (take for granted that I'm university graduate(my father is too)), how easy is to take good-small apartment (with a bathroom a sleeping room a kitchen and a hall), also is the city open for new immigrants and if it has a lot working opportunities, what's about transportation in Toronto and it's suburbs and health care system, that's the most important factors for me. The second part of my post has to do about comparing USA (Wisconsin) with Canada (Toronto), there's someone who has an opinion about this US State and if it's a better or bad choice comparing to Toronto? I know that this forum is only about Canada so issues but is a state near Canadian borders so you may know something, but the first part for information about Toronto is very important for me, thank you.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Jim jim4

[dialamah]

Rentals in Toronto are very expensive, but you can probably find what you want if you have enough money.  Canada is generally pretty welcoming to immigrants, but there are some requirements.  Here's a link. https://www.canada.ca/en/services/immigration-citizenship.html

[cannuck]

When we moved out of the North our target was prairies or the most suitable part of USA.  We had been to Wisconsin quite often (Oshkosh - largest experimental airplane gathering in the world - 10,000 airplanes and over half million people).  No two places could be much different from MOST of WI (i.e. outside of the strip of towns and cities along W shore of Lake Michigan - which are essentially an extension of Chicago).  The East strip along the lake is mostly industrial, with a lot of dying heavy industry to the North and small more modern and solvent South towards Chicago.   BUT: once you get into the rest of the state, it is a very Germanic, beautiful and friendly place.   One particular high school in the South center has consistently the highest test scores in the country. 

USA and Canada are very much alike in one important way:  big cities are essentially A-hole factories but rural areas and smaller centers are extremely welcoming places with a very different lifestyle.

BIG difference between any place in USA and Canada is of course the sick care system.   If you don't have a gold standard insurance plan (VERY expensive) it can be pretty shaky.  The largest cause of personal bankruptcy in the USA is medical costs.  Sick care insurance in Canada is all funded by government and service delivery is a mix of private clinics and government hospitals. While it may not be perfect, it gets far better results overall than the US at less than half the cost.

If you are a big city person, then Toronto could suit you well.  It is very diverse ethnically and has some of pretty much anything one could want.  But a very expensive place to live (typical of any major city, but competing with Vancouver for highest costs in Canada).

Our final choice for US living was Appleton WI, but since too small for a good University (we were going to raise kids and wanted them to be able to stay home when studying) we ended up near Saskatoon SK (small enough city to avoid much of the crime, drugs, etc. of really big cities).   We have a business in WY and would be happy to live there, but not a place we would want to raise our kids (again, they would have to leave to finish education).

[Jim jim4]

9 hours ago, cannuck said:

When we moved out of the North our target was prairies or the most suitable part of USA.  We had been to Wisconsin quite often (Oshkosh - largest experimental airplane gathering in the world - 10,000 airplanes and over half million people).  No two places could be much different from MOST of WI (i.e. outside of the strip of towns and cities along W shore of Lake Michigan - which are essentially an extension of Chicago).  The East strip along the lake is mostly industrial, with a lot of dying heavy industry to the North and small more modern and solvent South towards Chicago.   BUT: once you get into the rest of the state, it is a very Germanic, beautiful and friendly place.   One particular high school in the South center has consistently the highest test scores in the country. 

USA and Canada are very much alike in one important way:  big cities are essentially A-hole factories but rural areas and smaller centers are extremely welcoming places with a very different lifestyle.

BIG difference between any place in USA and Canada is of course the sick care system.   If you don't have a gold standard insurance plan (VERY expensive) it can be pretty shaky.  The largest cause of personal bankruptcy in the USA is medical costs.  Sick care insurance in Canada is all funded by government and service delivery is a mix of private clinics and government hospitals. While it may not be perfect, it gets far better results overall than the US at less than half the cost.

If you are a big city person, then Toronto could suit you well.  It is very diverse ethnically and has some of pretty much anything one could want.  But a very expensive place to live (typical of any major city, but competing with Vancouver for highest costs in Canada).

Our final choice for US living was Appleton WI, but since too small for a good University (we were going to raise kids and wanted them to be able to stay home when studying) we ended up near Saskatoon SK (small enough city to avoid much of the crime, drugs, etc. of really big cities).   We have a business in WY and would be happy to live there, but not a place we would want to raise our kids (again, they would have to leave to finish education).

first of all I wish the best to you and your family, from what you said I understood that you live both in Canada and Wisconsin, look I was thinking about Milwakee or Green Bay, I'm looking big cities or towns because there are more opportunities for software development (that's what I study) it's a good job but I'm worried that they always prefer Americans for these jobs, that's the reason I think Canada is a better option, because the population is much fewer and maybe they need a lot of people to come, but why in USA the health care system is so expensive? if I find a good job and have a good life insurance it will be better? Also, I believe that Mississauga or Hamilton will be cheaper than Toronto right?

[cannuck]

19 minutes ago, Jim jim4 said:

first of all I wish the best to you and your family, from what you said I understood that you live both in Canada and Wisconsin, look I was thinking about Milwakee or Green Bay, I'm looking big cities or towns because there are more opportunities for software development (that's what I study) it's a good job but I'm worried that they always prefer Americans for these jobs, that's the reason I think Canada is a better option, because the population is much fewer and maybe they need a lot of people to come, but why in USA the health care system is so expensive? if I find a good job and have a good life insurance it will be better? Also, I believe that Mississauga or Hamilton will be cheaper than Toronto right?

Our family home is in SK but my business locations are Wyoming and New York.   We have very close friends in the US, China, MENA, UK and EU that we have been in business with for decades, and I have spent a LOT of time with them.   BUT: there are few places on this planet that can compare with Canada overall.

The sick care system in the USA is so expensive because lawyers use medical, transportation, food, etc. businesses as lottery centers to sue for the most ridiculous things you could imagine - and courts will award millions or even billions of dollars in settlements for ridiculous claims.  The ratio of lawyers per capita in the USA is 30x what it is in Japan as an example.  The result is that doctors, clinics and hospitals in the USA pay a ridiculous amount to insurance companies to fund the "LLL" (Legal Liability Lottery) - and you have to remember that the courts and judges are all lawyers - so they AND THE INSURANCE COMPANIES make literally trillions of dollars from the LLL and have no interest in fixing that problem.   It is not just a medical problem.   Try building a general aviation airplane or components in the USA and you will find the legal red tape from both insurance AND government regulatory requirements make if financially impossible - thus why much of that industry is now offshore.

In summary: the opportunities and rewards in the US economy far, far outweigh those in Canada, but the risks of personal or corporate financial or health related disaster are also much higher.   Do you feel lucky????

I must defer to those in Ontario to tell you about how far out from Toronto one can live and still exploit the economy that a large center brings.  Personally, I would look at those areas a bit further out if you can avoid the need to commute into the city.  My family home was the Niagara Peninsula (about 2.0 hours from Toronto by car) but I have been gone so long I can't give you an accurate reading on those outlying areas.   What I CAN tell you is that there are some beautiful and very welcoming communities that are much lower cost than the big city itself.

Edited January 9, 2022 by cannuck

[Jim jim4]

27 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Our family home is in SK but my business locations are Wyoming and New York.   We have very close friends in the US, China, MENA, UK and EU that we have been in business with for decades, and I have spent a LOT of time with them.   BUT: there are few places on this planet that can compare with Canada overall.

The sick care system in the USA is so expensive because lawyers use medical, transportation, food, etc. businesses as lottery centers to sue for the most ridiculous things you could imagine - and courts will award millions or even billions of dollars in settlements for ridiculous claims.  The ratio of lawyers per capita in the USA is 30x what it is in Japan as an example.  The result is that doctors, clinics and hospitals in the USA pay a ridiculous amount to insurance companies to fund the "LLL" (Legal Liability Lottery) - and you have to remember that the courts and judges are all lawyers - so they AND THE INSURANCE COMPANIES make literally trillions of dollars from the LLL and have no interest in fixing that problem.   It is not just a medical problem.   Try building a general aviation airplane or components in the USA and you will find the legal red tape from both insurance AND government regulatory requirements make if financially impossible - thus why much of that industry is now offshore.

In summary: the opportunities and rewards in the US economy far, far outweigh those in Canada, but the risks of personal or corporate financial or health related disaster are also much higher.   Do you feel lucky????

I must defer to those in Ontario to tell you about how far out from Toronto one can live and still exploit the economy that a large center brings.  Personally, I would look at those areas a bit further out if you can avoid the need to commute into the city.  My family home was the Niagara Peninsula (about 2.0 hours from Toronto by car) but I have been gone so long I can't give you an accurate reading on those outlying areas.   What I CAN tell you is that there are some beautiful and very welcoming communities that are much lower cost than the big city itself.

So, the most services in USA are like a big profit company that has some "bosses" behind who are the lawyers who make the deals, look in a way that means USA is like a huge profit company from where you can benefit from but there are cases where you maybe fail, so I think Canada is the best solution for me, you know the only thing I want is a good home, insurance and a permanent job, if I accomplish this goal I'll be really happy, I was never the person who wanted to swim in money, just a good quality of life in a country that shows respect for it's working class people, I'm Greek, I love my country but for a person from middle class is very difficult to get by.