NDP Liberal Coalition

[August1991]

Should Layton support Martin?

In English-Canada, this seems to be the question. Layton is negotiating hard with Dosanjh to get public health care, and defend ordinary Canadians. Harper just wants an election.

Should English-Canada risk an election now?

[err]

Should Layton support Martin?

In English-Canada, this seems to be the question.  Layton is negotiating hard with Dosanjh to get public health care, and defend ordinary Canadians.  Harper just wants an election.

Should English-Canada risk an election now?

No to the Election. ... Especially in light of the Gomery report ....

We don't need an election right now, as there will probably be no clear winner, and we'll have spent millions for what... Harper doesn't really stand a chance.

It would appear to me that the party that would likely gain the most is the NDP, but I think they would be happy just forcing the Liberals to do "some of the right things" that they are pushing Martin to do...

[Argus]

Should Layton support Martin?

In English-Canada, this seems to be the question.  Layton is negotiating hard with Dosanjh to get public health care, and defend ordinary Canadians.  Harper just wants an election.

Should English-Canada risk an election now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From what I understand, Layton is demanding the feds ban all private health care, even privately supplied health services which is paid for through medicare. The feds don't actually have the right to ban that, but that's not stopping comrade Layton. He's on a mission to destroy the only parts of the health care system which actually function with any efficiency.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear err,

No to the Election. ... Especially in light of the Gomery report ....

I do believe Martin promised he would call an election within 30 days after the Gomery report...but I agree with you, now is not the time. The conservatives need to get their 'poop in a group', ditch Harper and gel as a unit before they stand a reasonable chance of defeating the Liberals.

The NDP is too far left for most people's liking, or they could also easily win over the Liberals.

[err]

From what I understand, Layton is demanding the feds ban all private health care, even privately supplied health services which is paid for through medicare. The feds don't actually have the right to ban that, but that's not stopping comrade Layton. He's on a mission to destroy the only parts of the health care system which actually function with any efficiency.

Function with efficiency ??? Is this a moronic Conservative/Fraser way of saying "for profit" ??

The fact is, that (Cost + Profit ) > Cost

and if the public has to pay the cost of delivery of health care plus profit to the private care-giver, plus additional overheads for a duplicated system, it will be more than just paying the cost of delivery. If it costs more, it will take more tax dollars...

We just have to look at the increased efficiency of our electricity generation systems in Ontario now that it's been privatized.. Only about 30% more than publicly delivered... until the new cost hikes come in later this year... then it will be 50% increase in cost in a little over 2 years.... Conservative/Fraser efficiency...

[Black Dog]

Should Layton support Martin?

In English-Canada, this seems to be the question.  Layton is negotiating hard with Dosanjh to get public health care, and defend ordinary Canadians.  Harper just wants an election.

Should English-Canada risk an election now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I say the time has come to back off. You lie down with dogs, you get fleas and Layton andd teh ND's should be distancing tehmselves from the Liberals. An election is coming, sooner or later, and it's best to head off the inevitable accusations that would come of working with a party that has proven itself to be riddled with corruption and incompetence. There's no more "waiting until the report" to fall back on.

From what I understand, Layton is demanding the feds ban all private health care, even privately supplied health services which is paid for through medicare.

Where ar eyou hearing this? According to the Globe, the ND's were calling for restrictions on the transfer of federal funds to provinces that pay doctors who both work in the public system and offer services for a fee.

[tml12]

Should Layton support Martin?

In English-Canada, this seems to be the question.  Layton is negotiating hard with Dosanjh to get public health care, and defend ordinary Canadians.  Harper just wants an election.

Should English-Canada risk an election now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I say the time has come to back off. You lie down with dogs, you get fleas and Layton andd teh ND's should be distancing tehmselves from the Liberals. An election is coming, sooner or later, and it's best to head off the inevitable accusations that would come of working with a party that has proven itself to be riddled with corruption and incompetence. There's no more "waiting until the report" to fall back on.

From what I understand, Layton is demanding the feds ban all private health care, even privately supplied health services which is paid for through medicare.

Where ar eyou hearing this? According to the Globe, the ND's were calling for restrictions on the transfer of federal funds to provinces that pay doctors who both work in the public system and offer services for a fee.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No to election now, as it will produce another minority.

We will wait for 30 days after Gomery's final report and make our decision then.

[Black Dog]

No to election now, as it will produce another minority.

We will wait for 30 days after Gomery's final report and make our decision then.

Nobody wants a winter election, so I don't see that in the cards anyway. But it's ineviotable, so might as well start positioning for it now. Layton should try to carve a niche for himself away from the duceppe/Harper outrage chorus and away from the crooked Liberals.

[Chimera]

Nobody wants a winter election, so I don't see that in the cards anyway. But it's ineviotable, so might as well start positioning for it now. Layton should try to carve a niche for himself away from the duceppe/Harper outrage chorus and away from the crooked Liberals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That doesn't really leave him anywhere to turn then. At least by propping up the Lib's in return for concessions, the NDP comes off as the only party trying to make this minority gov't work. I would think that should help them win a few more seats when the election finally does come.

[Black Dog]

Nobody wants a winter election, so I don't see that in the cards anyway. But it's ineviotable, so might as well start positioning for it now. Layton should try to carve a niche for himself away from the duceppe/Harper outrage chorus and away from the crooked Liberals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That doesn't really leave him anywhere to turn then. At least by propping up the Lib's in return for concessions, the NDP comes off as the only party trying to make this minority gov't work. I would think that should help them win a few more seats when the election finally does come.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I trust you are familiar with the term "guilt by association"? I don't think the political concessions that the NDs could win outweigh the potential damage of staying in bed with the Liberals.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

I trust you are familiar with the term "guilt by association"? I don't think the political concessions that the NDs could win outweigh the potential damage of staying in bed with the Liberals.

I really don't think the NDP has too much to worry about. Theirs is a marriage of neccesity/circumstance, not collusion. I don't think too many people could imagine Layton standing for any shenanigans, especially now. I personally can't see the NDP being painted with the same brush (barring any dramatic revelation), although I find it curious that no Liberals are quitting the party to become 'untainted independents'.

[Black Dog]

really don't think the NDP has too much to worry about. Theirs is a marriage of neccesity/circumstance, not collusion. I don't think too many people could imagine Layton standing for any shenanigans, especially now. I personally can't see the NDP being painted with the same brush (barring any dramatic revelation), although I find it curious that no Liberals are quitting the party to become 'untainted independents'.

Well don't think for a second that the Bloc or CPC would hesitate to smear the NDs jsut for tryin to hammer out policy. And, given the public's recitence to viewing the ND as a reasonable alternative to the usual crap, I don't see why they should expose themselves to any more flak than is necessary.

[Riverwind]

I find it curious that no Liberals are quitting the party to become 'untainted independents'.

Probably because Liberal 'insiders' know that the scam was perpetrated by a few bad apples and they keep hoping that the Canadian public will be fair and recognize that.

[Chimera]

Well don't think for a second that the Bloc or CPC would hesitate to smear the NDs jsut for tryin to hammer out policy. And, given the public's recitence to viewing the ND as a reasonable alternative to the usual crap, I don't see why they should expose themselves to any more flak than is necessary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

However, I think (and this is just my opinion) that by trying to make the minority government work, that they might start to come off as a reasonable alternative, and sway some of the swing voters to their side. They at least will have some accomplishments to point out come election time. They won't get any support from liberal-haters, but they would be unlikely to win that support in any circumstance.

[Black Dog]

However, I think (and this is just my opinion) that by trying to make the minority government work, that they might start to come off as a reasonable alternative, and sway some of the swing voters to their side. They at least will have some accomplishments to point out come election time. They won't get any support from liberal-haters, but they would be unlikely to win that support in any circumstance.

Unfortunately, voters don't think too much about their choices and thus are easily swayed by emotional appeals, so a nuanced approach like that is likely to be ineffective. I think that's been the NDP's problem for a while: an inability to articulate their message in a way which is both simple and non-threatening to soft Liberal supporters who vote Liberal more out of fear of the alternatives than any commitment to that party and its policies.

Probably because Liberal 'insiders' know that the scam was perpetrated by a few bad apples and they keep hoping that the Canadian public will be fair and recognize that.

With one of those "bad apples" being the PM himself?

I mean, Jesus Christ: even if Martin was in the clear and just too stupid to know what was going on under his nose, he should still accept responsibility out of principle. That would be one act of real leadership in his otherwise unremarkable tenure.

[shoop]

However, I think (and this is just my opinion) that by trying to make the minority government work, that they might start to come off as a reasonable alternative, and sway some of the swing voters to their side. They at least will have some accomplishments to point out come election time. They won't get any support from liberal-haters, but they would be unlikely to win that support in any circumstance.

Unfortunately, voters don't think too much about their choices and thus are easily swayed by emotional appeals, so a nuanced approach like that is likely to be ineffective. I think that's been the NDP's problem for a while: an inability to articulate their message in a way which is both simple and non-threatening to soft Liberal supporters who vote Liberal more out of fear of the alternatives than any commitment to that party and its policies.

Probably because Liberal 'insiders' know that the scam was perpetrated by a few bad apples and they keep hoping that the Canadian public will be fair and recognize that.

With one of those "bad apples" being the PM himself?

I mean, Jesus Christ: even if Martin was in the clear and just too stupid to know what was going on under his nose, he should still accept responsibility out of principle. That would be one act of real leadership in his otherwise unremarkable tenure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Layton 'tried to make the minority government work' in the spring and got SCREWED in doing so. Good work Jack, oh sorry we are going to re-implement those tax cuts. Thanks for coming out though....

So if the Canadian public penalizes the Liberal Party for Adscam they aren't acting 'fairly'? Wow, what an interesting sense of fair play!

[Argus]

From what I understand, Layton is demanding the feds ban all private health care, even privately supplied health services which is paid for through medicare. The feds don't actually have the right to ban that, but that's not stopping comrade Layton. He's on a mission to destroy the only parts of the health care system which actually function with any efficiency.

Function with efficiency ??? Is this a moronic Conservative/Fraser way of saying "for profit" ??

The fact is, that (Cost + Profit ) > Cost

You are assuming the cost is identical in both cases. It is not. In most cases, the cost in the private sector is considerably lower due to efficiencies. Thus even with the added profit they can still provide services cheaper than the public sector.

We just have to look at the increased efficiency of our electricity generation systems in Ontario now that it's been privatized.. Only about 30% more than publicly delivered... until the new cost hikes come in later this year... then it will be 50% increase in cost in a little over 2 years....  Conservative/Fraser efficiency...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The hikes in costs for Ontario power has nothing to do with lower efficiencies and everything to do with paying off the massive debt incurred during years of incompetent management - not to mention increased fuel, the cost of all those meters the government wants to install, and closing down oil fired generators.

[Riverwind]

So if the Canadian public penalizes the Liberal Party for Adscam they aren't acting 'fairly'? Wow, what an interesting sense of fair play! 

Slandering people who had nothing to do with the scam is hardly fair or reasonable.

[Argus]

I find it curious that no Liberals are quitting the party to become 'untainted independents'.

Probably because Liberal 'insiders' know that the scam was perpetrated by a few bad apples and they keep hoping that the Canadian public will be fair and recognize that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"A few bad apples" - the leaders of the party.

[Riverwind]

"A few bad apples" - the leaders of the party.

The leaders in question were removed when Martin took over and cleaned house.

[Yaro]

You are assuming the cost is identical in both cases. It is not. In most cases, the cost in the private sector is considerably lower due to efficiencies. Thus even with the added profit they can still provide services cheaper than the public sector.

Completely untrue.

The hikes in costs for Ontario power has nothing to do with lower efficiencies and everything to do with paying off the massive debt incurred during years of incompetent management - not to mention increased fuel, the cost of all those meters the government wants to install, and closing down oil fired generators.

Again completely untrue.

Overhead in the private sector is virtually without exception higher then the public sector.

[Leader Circle]

You are assuming the cost is identical in both cases. It is not. In most cases, the cost in the private sector is considerably lower due to efficiencies. Thus even with the added profit they can still provide services cheaper than the public sector.

Completely untrue.

The hikes in costs for Ontario power has nothing to do with lower efficiencies and everything to do with paying off the massive debt incurred during years of incompetent management - not to mention increased fuel, the cost of all those meters the government wants to install, and closing down oil fired generators.

Again completely untrue.

Overhead in the private sector is virtually without exception higher then the public sector.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your proof of these untruths is pretty accurate, hard job to not believe you Yaro!!

[shoop]

Overhead in the private sector is virtually without exception higher then the public sector.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No evidence for this.

Never mind the oft-chronicled higher efficiency of the private sector. Want proof? Provide some for higher overhead in the private sector...

[Guest eureka]

Costs in the private sector in the US have been shown to be about 15% higher than in a private sector comparison. All the Canadian Commisions have said that. And 15a5 comes to billions of dollars.

The cost comes largely from the paperwork and bureaucracy. I don't remember what the amounts of time are, but in America, physicians spend far more time on office work and less on medical work than Canadians by a considerable margin.

[Argus]

"A few bad apples" - the leaders of the party.

The leaders in question were removed when Martin took over and cleaned house.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cleaned house? My ass, he cleaned house. He did everything he could to cover this thing up. Only a fool would believe that the only guilty parties were the ones that have been named, and that this kickback scheme was the only one.

More importantly, I think we have been reduced to a pretty shoddy state when we exonnerate a politician not because he did something good, but because we can't prove he did something illegal. The Liberals here can cheer all they want about how Martin was somehow vindicated as Mr. Clean because no one talked, because no one ratted on him. Fine, he can't be considered "guilty".

But as a powerful cabinet minister with a huge block of supporters behind him, the heir apparent to the throne, Finance Minister, and Vice President of Treasury Board, he SHOULD have known. Anyone who says differently has abandoned any consideration whatever of ministerial responsibility.