Gomery Report - Part I

[August1991]

This is what I heard Gagliano say on Radio-Canada today:

"On est maintenant habitués aux mesures intempestives de M. Martin qui n'ont pas de sens", a-t-il renchéri.

Matinternet

Then he added, "C'est la panique."

----

This scandal is reported differently in English-Canada and in Quebec. In English-Canada, it is all about exoneration and he didn't know and a small group of people. In Quebec, it is the federalists who are guilty.

In English-Canada, Martin and the Liberal Party will probably survive this scandal. But the old-style Liberal Party is dead in Quebec now. Martin has chosen to kill Quebec's true-blue (red?) federalists. Maybe he (and Jean Lapierre) calculate that they have nowhere else to go. They have been told that they are unwelcome.

----

Gomery's report may seem clear but it amounts to obfuscation. He was a bizarre, one-man Royal Commission. No charges can be layed. Gomery blames Chretien, but it means nothing in practice. Did Gomery say that Chretien should go to jail, as a prosecutor would?

This exercise has been a circus of mumble.

----

I have never felt more pessimistic about the future of Canada. I know that Canada's demise, like the demise of Saturday Night, has been falsely announced before.

Canada, in the past, survived divisive crises like the Air Traffic Controllers strike, or Conscription, or Louis Riel. Every 20 or 30 years, we have had such a crisis in our country. We would not survive such a crisis now.

[Guest eureka]

Then perhaps it is time for another programme aimed at Quebec. One that will ensure that Quebeckers are ocassionally exposed to the truth. A Media Blitz, perhaps.

It is also perhaps time to tell the Quebec political leaderships that we will not play by their rules and we will not be bound by Quebec Law over the conduct of separation issues.

Perhaps it is time for Canada to get serious about its determination to survive.

I have been pessimistic about the future of Canada for a very long time but the reality of our predicament does not seem to enter many heads. Not that I think it will break up, but that it will explode as I have said more thna a few times in the forum.

[Riverwind]

In Quebec, it is the federalists who are guilty.

In other words, you are saying that Quebequers are seriously misinformed about what happened. This is ironic considering how closely Quebequers followed the Gomery commission. What does this say about the quality of the French language media?

[August1991]

In Quebec, it is the federalists who are guilty.

In other words, you are saying that Quebequers are seriously misinformed about what happened. This is ironic considering how closely Quebequers followed the Gomery commission. What does this say about the quality of the French language media?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

French language media? Gimme a break. It was not Paul Martin who started the investigation into Adscam, it was the repeated questioning of the Bloc in the House - and the reports in the French media and the G & M - that forced the Liberal hand.

Dear Sparhawk,

Jean Pelletier was Mayor of Quebec City for many years before going to Ottawa as Chretien's Chief of Staff. Pelletier has contacts all through the Liberal party in Quebec. Gomery somehow manages to make Jean Pelletier the central culprit of Adscam.

To save his skin, Martin is hanging many Quebec federalists out to dry.

Now, in English-Canada, if you want to believe otherwise, go ahead. As they say, in politics, perception is everything.

[Riverwind]

French language media?  Gimme a break.  It was not Paul Martin who started the investigation into Adscam, it was the repeated questioning of the Bloc in the House - and the reports in the French media and the G & M - that forced the Liberal hand.

This is the same media that has painted the entire issue as a simplistic federalist=crooks seperatist=victim morality tale? If Quebequers really believe that all federalists are responsible for the scam then they are sadly misinformed and the Quebec media is responsible for spreading this disinformation.

Quebequers have been subjected to a huge seperatist propaganda machine paid for by their provincial government for decades and the they have the nerve to be upset because a federalist comes up with a dumb plan to counter this propaganda with a few flags at cultural events.

To save his skin, Martin is hanging many Quebec federalists out to dry.

Who do you think should be 'hung out to dry'? Martin because he is currently in charge of the Liberal party?

[tml12]

In Quebec, it is the federalists who are guilty.

In other words, you are saying that Quebequers are seriously misinformed about what happened. This is ironic considering how closely Quebequers followed the Gomery commission. What does this say about the quality of the French language media?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that what August is saying, and what is true, is that you must evaluate Quebec different in terms of the Gomery Report.

Quebec has the Bloc, English Canada doesn't.

Furthermore, Quebec was where the scandal was rooted. When this became public, to English Canadians it was just another struggle with Quebec...but to Quebecers it was a deeply personal and flagrant attempt to buy the hearts of Quebecers.

[Leafless]

tml12

You wrote- "But to Quebecers it was a deeply personal and flagrant attempt to but the hearts of Quebecers."

Arn't you getting a little carried away?

These were corrupt arrogant Liberal greedy politicians ripping off the tax payers of Canada who never expected to get caught with both hands in the cookie jar.

[August1991]

Sparhawk, I'm reading Gomery's report now. (Gomery has a fluid, even pleasant, style.) He writes:

The LPCQ [Liberal Party of Canada in Quebec] as an institution cannot escape responsibility for the misconduct of its officers and representatives. Two successive Executive Directors were directly involved in illegal campaign financing, and many of its workers accepted cash payments for their services when they should have known that such payments were in violation of the Canada Elections Act.

Gomery Report

[Riverwind]

The LPCQ [Liberal Party of Canada in Quebec] as an institution cannot escape responsibility for the misconduct of its officers and representatives.

I think this is a fair conclusion based on the evidence presented, however, it does raise the question of how a 'party' takes responsibility. Should the Liberal party president resign? Keep in mind that all Canadian political parties maintain a formal seperation between their fund raising arms and the politicians in office (it has been like this since the last party funding scandal during MacKenzie-King's time). That means that the party leaders are not technically responsible for mistakes made by the party executive.

That said, I am already on the record saying that it is time for the Liberals to go - give Harper his chance. If he goes 'Bush' on us we can boot him out soon enough. If he lives up even 1/2 of his promises he could change the country for the better.

However, I still defend Martin because I believe he did not participate in this fraud and choose to ignore rumors because he thought the best way to clean up any mess was to push Chretian out as quickly as possible. It is easy to say now that he should have torpedoed his political career by blowing the whistle immediately, however, I don't believe anyone except the party executives in Quebec really understood the depraved nature of the kickback scheme.

[Leader Circle]

The LPCQ [Liberal Party of Canada in Quebec] as an institution cannot escape responsibility for the misconduct of its officers and representatives.

I think this is a fair conclusion based on the evidence presented, however, it does raise the question of how a 'party' takes responsibility. Should the Liberal party president resign? Keep in mind that all Canadian political parties maintain a formal seperation between their fund raising arms and the politicians in office (it has been like this since the last party funding scandal during MacKenzie-King's time). That means that the party leaders are not technically responsible for mistakes made by the party executive.

That said, I am already on the record saying that it is time for the Liberals to go - give Harper his chance. If he goes 'Bush' on us we can boot him out soon enough. If he lives up even 1/2 of his promises he could change the country for the better.

However, I still defend Martin because I believe he did not participate in this fraud and choose to ignore rumors because he thought the best way to clean up any mess was to push Chretian out as quickly as possible. It is easy to say now that he should have torpedoed his political career by blowing the whistle immediately, however, I don't believe anyone except the party executives in Quebec really understood the depraved nature of the kickback scheme.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said Spar!

[Leafless]

Leader Circle

No matter how you arrive at your conclusion concerning Martin's innocence he FAILED miserably concerning the seriousness of the matter to call an immediate election to clear the corrupt air.

BTW - I am one of the ones that hope Stephen Harper if elected would carry on a government similar to the Republican one currently under the direction and leadership of George W. Bush.

[Riverwind]

BTW - I am one of the ones that hope Stephen Harper if elected would carry on a government similar to the Republican one currently under the direction and leadership of George W. Bush.

You want Harper to drive the country fiscal and moral bankrupcy with inane tax cuts, high spending and stupid foriegn wars? Strange logic coming from someone who complains about how the Liberals have mis spent public money.

You better be prepared to be disappointed because the only way Harper will get elected is if he can convince people that he will not govern like Bush. If he gets a elected and then tries govern like Bush then he (and the Tories) will be in opposition for another generation.

[shoop]

You better be prepared to be disappointed because the only way Harper will get elected is if he can convince people that he will not govern like Bush. If he gets a elected and then tries govern like Bush then he (and the Tories) will be in opposition for another generation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Harper wouldn't govern like Bush. He has said time and again that he won't.

The only thing saving the Liberals right now is the gullibility of the Canadian population to continually buy the Liberals' lies. No Canadian government has EVER governed the country as conservatively as Bush is governing right now.

But thanks for telling me how to prepare myself pal.

[Leafless]

Sparhawk

You wrote- " Strange logic coming from someone who complains about how the Liberals have mis spent public money."

Nobody can outdo the Liberals mis spending money and that is creating jobs through social programs paid for by the Canadian taxpayer including the poorest of the poor.

Stephen Harper cannot run Canada like George W. Bush since we do not have the same political mandate in several areas but can he run the country in a much more conservative manner.

But I think the Conservatives will do a better job creating 'real jobs' incorporating private investment and return the country to a more meaningful concept of what democracy is suppose to mean.

I have not given up on the hope that Canada cannot only exist as a socialist state under the type of corrupt dictatorial Liberal leadership we have at the present time.

[crazymf]

I'm all for going back to the republic of Buffalo idea, oh, I mean province. I sincerly hope that the west doesn't wait on the sidelines while Ottawa self destructs in the face of Quebec. We all need to move on and if localizing our federal government somewhat does it, oh well......

[tml12]

Sparhawk

You wrote- " Strange logic coming from someone who complains about how the Liberals have mis spent public money."

Nobody can outdo the Liberals mis spending money and that is creating jobs through social programs paid for by the Canadian taxpayer including the poorest of the poor.

Stephen Harper cannot run Canada like George W. Bush since we do not have the same political mandate in several areas but can he run the country in a much more conservative manner.

But I think the Conservatives will do a better job creating 'real jobs' incorporating  private investment and return the country to a more meaningful concept of what democracy is suppose to mean.

I have not given up on the hope that Canada cannot only exist as a socialist state under the type of corrupt dictatorial Liberal leadership we have at the present time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to come across as pro-Liberal but to play their game for a minute...

Does anyone who is not THAT far right-wing REALLY think the Liberal Party is socialist? I mean, I would consider Martin at the LEAST right-leaning on economic issues. I mean, he was a CEO and now his son is in the company.

I think the Liberal Party is, as they are officially known in political science circumstances, the "radical middle." Trudeau, I believe, coined that concept and depending on their leader they advocate a right or left leaning centrism (I would call Martin and Turner the right-leaning ones and Trudeau and, to a lesser extent Chretien, the left-leaning ones).

[shoop]

Not to come across as pro-Liberal but to play their game for a minute...

Does anyone who is not THAT far right-wing REALLY think the Liberal Party is socialist?  I mean, I would consider Martin at the LEAST right-leaning on economic issues.  I mean, he was a CEO and now his son is in the company.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Martin showed his true coulours when he cancelled the tax cut for business in order to save his arse. I don't REALLY think there is any ideology guiding the Liberals. They are in government for the sake of having power and in order to line their own pockets. (Oh, they can prove we stole $1.14 Million - guess we better pay that back!)

[tml12]

Not to come across as pro-Liberal but to play their game for a minute...

Does anyone who is not THAT far right-wing REALLY think the Liberal Party is socialist?  I mean, I would consider Martin at the LEAST right-leaning on economic issues.  I mean, he was a CEO and now his son is in the company.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Martin showed his true coulours when he cancelled the tax cut for business in order to save his arse. I don't REALLY think there is any ideology guiding the Liberals. They are in government for the sake of having power and in order to line their own pockets. (Oh, they can prove we stole $1.14 Million - guess we better pay that back!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hahaha...I'll give you that!

[August1991]

I still think Martin is going to get away with this, and Gomery, for his own reasons, has chosen to write the report the way he has.

In effect, Gomery's report lets Martin off the hook and free to run a campaign for a majority. But there has to be a guilty party so Gomery offers up an "unindicted co-conspirator" in the name of Jean Chretien - along with Jean Pelletier, Alfonso Gagliano and Jacques Corriveau. But here's the beauty of it: these are not formal accusations and nobody has been charged.

The RCMP investigation will go nowhere and at most, Chretien and Pelletier et al may seek redress in the courts (what for?) In a year or so, everyone will be cleared and Martin will have his majority.

Gomery, ever the federalist, had no choice but to write the report he wrote. He didn't even need a glance from Martin. When Gomery was brought into this, all the vases were already broken. Gomery has offered up a guilty party but not in a fatal way. Chretien and the others will easily get out of this.

The following National Post article has some priceless quotes:

"I am a bit wounded by this," said Mr. Pelletier, joining Mr. Chretien in questioning the selection of Bernard Roy, a former chief of staff to Conservative prime minister Brian Mulroney, as lead counsel for the commission.

I'm sure Brian Mulroney has had long phone conversations with Roy... and I'll bet he's compared the Martin-Chretien fight using sexual metaphors. But the fact is that Gomery had to deliver some heads on platters.

Earlier in the day, Conservative leader Stephen Harper told reporters he feels "sympathy" for Mr. Chretien because the terms of reference for the Gomery commission allowed only an investigation of the sponsorship scandal and not the contracts that Mr. Martin, as finance minister, signed with Earnscliffe, a Liberal-friendly lobbying firm whose officials supported his leadership bid.

"If I was Mr. Chretien, I'd be kind of upset that Mr. Martin will investigate Mr. Chretien but Mr. Martin will not allow an investigation of himself," he said.

True, and Gomery was assiduous in following the terms of reference, frequently referring to them. But Harper's comment is not really germane here.

However Liberal MP Denis Coderre, a long-time Chretien loyalist, was one of the few MPs who publicly defended him. But he stopped short of criticizing Judge Gomery.

"I believe in Mr. Chretien's integrity. I believe also in the work of Judge Gomery," he said.

Denis Coderre, you gotta admire the guy. He's the Liberal Party personified.

Jacques Corriveau, identified in the Gomery report as the leader of a Liberal kickback scheme, was once considered for appointment to the Senate, according to Jean Chretien's former right-hand man.

Jean Pelletier, who was blamed by Justice John Gomery for overlooking the abuses of the sponsorship scandal, said yesterday he warned the former prime minister against the appointment.

Mr. Pelletier, Mr. Chretien's former chief of staff, said he did not know Mr. Corriveau was involved in the sponsorship program when he advised Mr. Chretien: "I don't trust that man."

WTF?

National Post

====

Incidentally, I subtitled this thread "When in doubt, mumble" because of the famous quote:

When in doubt, mumble; when in trouble, delegate; when in charge, ponder.

James Boren

Gomery's report, despite its smooth style, is the verbal equivalent of mumbling.

[shoop]

I still think Martin is going to get away with this, and Gomery, for his own reasons, has chosen to write the report the way he has.

In effect, Gomery's report lets Martin off the hook and free to run a campaign for a majority.  But there has to be a guilty party so Gomery offers up an "unindicted co-conspirator" in the name of Jean Chretien - along with Jean Pelletier, Alfonso Gagliano and Jacques Corriveau.  But here's the beauty of it: these are not formal accusations and nobody has been charged.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The beauty of it is that everybody sees through what Gomery did. Those people who had questions as to the extent of Martin's involvement haven't been convinced he is innocent by the report...

He can run for a majority but will not get it.

[Guest eureka]

I would have expected something a little more intelligent on thos forum than the slights of Gomery and the partisanship criticisms of the Inquiry.

The conclusions were not "what I wanted them to be" therefore they are wrong and biased.

[shoop]

I would have expected something a little more intelligent on thos forum than the slights of Gomery and the partisanship criticisms of the Inquiry.

The conclusions were not "what I wanted them to be" therefore they are wrong and biased.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm, I think a number of us have posted fair critiques of the report.

Why would you ever expect this board to be intelligent?

[Riverwind]

I don't REALLY think there is any ideology guiding the Liberals.

Why is this bad? Ideologues are responsible for most of grief in the world today. We need more pragmatic politicians who will evaulate each decision according to its merits.

[shoop]

Why is this bad? Ideologues are responsible for most of grief in the world today. We need more pragmatic politicians who will evaulate each decision according to its merits.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You need a base to work from though. People need to understand where there politicians are going to be coming from when they do make those difficult decisions.

[Bakunin]

In Quebec, it is the federalists who are guilty.

I would just like to clarify something.

In quebec, Federalists = Liberals.

Both words mean the same thing.

The conservative and the ndp are like alien from another planet for us, we never see them except in the campain day and they don't have any well known quebec politician to sponsorize their party's vision of canada.

As we see it, jean chretien and his friend are guilty for building the program and paul martin and his friends are guilty by association and by not acting or verifying when the bloc was asking question.

Now many feel the liberals have to be punished for that and trust me, they have been punished and will continue to be as long as they don't lose an election.