Martin Exonerated

[ScottBrison]

As much as a victory this is for all of us who said Martin shouldn't be held to blame for actions of those around him this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You've got to be kidding me. After months and months of the liberal media trying to supress the Adscam Scandal, and referring to the problems of the "federal govt" (they rarely use the words Liberal Party), and you believe that Martin is exonerated?

Think about who was Fianance Minister while this was going down If Martin isn’t crooked, he must be pretty stupid to have missed all this money going out with little or no return. Either way he is a screw-up. The Gomery Inquiry took place only because Allan Cutler blew the whistle on improper contracts being pushed through Public Works by who?

Paul Martin and the Finance Dept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I said:

"this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?"

Give it up, you lost, now deal with it like a man.

[Toro]

As much as a victory this is for all of us who said Martin shouldn't be held to blame for actions of those around him this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, the irony of that statement, coming from a Liberal.

I'm certainly not surprised that the commission exonerated Martin. There didnt' seem to be much evidence pointing to him in the first place. However, it is still the Liberal Party that committed perhaps the greatest fraud in the history of the country - one that is imperiling the standing of the federal government in Quebec and emboldening the separatists. Thus, the Liberals must be thrown out, at the very least to send a message to the party that its arrogance cannot be tolerated and that the interests of the Liberal Party and the interests of the country are not the same thing. Otherwise, Canadians have absolutely no right whatsoever to complain about corruption in government if they keep voting for the party that allows it to happen.

[mcqueen625]

Nothing has changed, but then Gomery was never given a mandate to find criminal fault, so what can we expect. As far a Martin being exonerated, I say B.S., because if nothing else during the sponsorship program Martin was the most powerful Cabinet Minister, being Finance Minister, and he SHOULD have known what was going on, and if he didn't, he was not doing the job he was paid to do. Either way, regardless of what Gomery says, Paul Martin was untimately responsible for the taxpayer's money that was stolen right from underneath his nose. I'm sure if he had executive member's stealing from Canada Steamship Lines or one of his other companies he would have been more vigilent, and made an effort to find out what was going on, but since this money helped get him into 24 Sussex Drive, he forgot to asked where all the money came from.

[ScottBrison]

If Jesus Christ himself came down from heaven and pointed the finger at Martin shouting "He did it" you'd immediately convert to Islam and dismiss it all as nothing but a Christian fanatic trying to get back at Martin for gay marriage. Of all the people who might speak about refusing to believe you are the last. I can not imagine any evidence of any kind, whatever type, however much of it existed, which would ever convince you Paul Martin was not the most honest and brilliant politician ever to walk the face of the earth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Man, I'm just wondering if it's possible for you to be more ignorant.

First of all, Muslims also believe in Jesus Christ. Although they don't believe he was the son of God, they do believe he was sent by God, along with the prophet Muhammad. I'm not even religious and I know that.

http://islam.about.com/cs/jesus/f/jesus_quran.htm

Second of all, I think the most Honest politician to walk the earth was my former MLA Jim Smith, and the most Brilliant was John F. Kennedy. I'm not even a big fan of Paul Martin, I would have perferred Frank McKenna or Brian Tobin to succeed Chretien, but on his worst day Martin is still about a billion times better than Stephen Harper on his best day.

[Montgomery Burns]

As much as a victory this is for all of us who said Martin shouldn't be held to blame for actions of those around him this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You've got to be kidding me. After months and months of the liberal media trying to supress the Adscam Scandal, and referring to the problems of the "federal govt" (they rarely use the words Liberal Party), and you believe that Martin is exonerated?

Think about who was Fianance Minister while this was going down If Martin isn’t crooked, he must be pretty stupid to have missed all this money going out with little or no return. Either way he is a screw-up. The Gomery Inquiry took place only because Allan Cutler blew the whistle on improper contracts being pushed through Public Works by who?

Paul Martin and the Finance Dept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I said:

"this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?"

Give it up, you lost, now deal with it like a man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't get it. Read my above quote again - carefully.

I'm constantly amazed at how the left always sticks up for its crooks. Chretien, Martin, Clinton, etc.

[ScottBrison]

As much as a victory this is for all of us who said Martin shouldn't be held to blame for actions of those around him this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, the irony of that statement, coming from a Liberal.

I'm certainly not surprised that the commission exonerated Martin. There didnt' seem to be much evidence pointing to him in the first place. However, it is still the Liberal Party that committed perhaps the greatest fraud in the history of the country - one that is imperiling the standing of the federal government in Quebec and emboldening the separatists. Thus, the Liberals must be thrown out, at the very least to send a message to the party that its arrogance cannot be tolerated and that the interests of the Liberal Party and the interests of the country are not the same thing. Otherwise, Canadians have absolutely no right whatsoever to complain about corruption in government if they keep voting for the party that allows it to happen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know that you hate the Liberals and all, but try to take the 4 brain cells that you have and work yourself out of this "Guilt by Association" nonsence. Otherwise I'll start thinking that all Conservatives hate those "Jap Bastards" a la Stephen Fletcher.

You see what I mean, do you see how ridiculous you sound? Oh I'm sure in your mind you can justify all the B.S. CON spin you hear as the righteous (emphasis on right) pulling out their magic sword to slay the evil Liberal dragon. Fuck why do I even bother, trying to talk common sence to a Conservative is like trying to teach a dog physics.

[ScottBrison]

As much as a victory this is for all of us who said Martin shouldn't be held to blame for actions of those around him this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You've got to be kidding me. After months and months of the liberal media trying to supress the Adscam Scandal, and referring to the problems of the "federal govt" (they rarely use the words Liberal Party), and you believe that Martin is exonerated?

Think about who was Fianance Minister while this was going down If Martin isn’t crooked, he must be pretty stupid to have missed all this money going out with little or no return. Either way he is a screw-up. The Gomery Inquiry took place only because Allan Cutler blew the whistle on improper contracts being pushed through Public Works by who?

Paul Martin and the Finance Dept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I said:

"this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?"

Give it up, you lost, now deal with it like a man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't get it. Read my above quote again - carefully.

I'm constantly amazed at how the left always sticks up for its crooks. Chretien, Martin, Clinton, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would read it again, but reading Conservative spin for too long makes blood shoot out my ears........

...........Ok, I put some ear plus in and braved it once again. And I have the same response, nothing could have been said by Gomery that would have exonerated Martin in Conservative eyes, NOTHING. So you hear the truth but you don't believe it. Now who doesn't get it? I assume you will still think it's me but that will just deepen your ignorance. Nothing short of your part and all their fasicst buddies getting in to power and making it so boys can't kiss anymore and giving huge tax cuts to all their rich friends could ever satisfy your hunger for revenge, the revenge against the Liberals for having the audacity to run the country without these concepts.

[Argus]

If Jesus Christ himself came down from heaven and pointed the finger at Martin shouting "He did it" you'd immediately convert to Islam and dismiss it all as nothing but a Christian fanatic trying to get back at Martin for gay marriage. Of all the people who might speak about refusing to believe you are the last. I can not imagine any evidence of any kind, whatever type, however much of it existed, which would ever convince you Paul Martin was not the most honest and brilliant politician ever to walk the face of the earth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Man, I'm just wondering if it's possible for you to be more ignorant.

Well, I could be you...

[Argus]

I would read it again, but reading Conservative spin for too long makes blood shoot out my ears........

It's not like there's anything but air in there to hold it in.

[wellandboy]

Whether or not Gomery exonerates Martin is missing the point entirely. The systemic sleaze in the Liberal Party is the problem. Martin's window dressing purge is a joke. The same power players are still pretty much in tact. The only resolution is to get rid of them sooner rather than later.

[Semperfi_dani]

I agree in principle with FTA Laywers argument. Very well reasoned out!

But I will still vote Liberal in the next election, because there are other issues in my life that take far more precedence that a sponsership deal gone sour. Governments of all stripes can't help but get their paws dirty. I accept that. So therefore, i will vote on issues that concern me and which party will best meet my moderate views.

Unfortuneatly, the PC party is dead now (not completely..they have a splinter Progressive Canadian party with the old bylaws). I would vote for a moderate conservative party like the old PC. But the Reform party took away that option for me. So i choose the lesser of two evils.

Cheers.

[Toro]

I know that you hate the Liberals and all, but try to take the 4 brain cells that you have and work yourself out of this "Guilt by Association" nonsence. Otherwise I'll start thinking that all Conservatives hate those "Jap Bastards" a la Stephen Fletcher.

You see what I mean, do you see how ridiculous you sound? Oh I'm sure in your mind you can justify all the B.S. CON spin you hear as the righteous (emphasis on right) pulling out their magic sword to slay the evil Liberal dragon. Fuck why do I even bother, trying to talk common sence to a Conservative is like trying to teach a dog physics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, you sure are a bitter angry man. I know I would be if there was a political party I loved which had perpetuated one of the greatest frauds in Canadian history. Must be pretty tiring constantly defending the criminal actions, justifications and rationalizations of the Liberal Party of Canada.

[Argus]

Sure, he's out saying the right things and referring to the RCMP and so on and so forth...but for all we know, there are several other horrible schemes going on in the Liberal Party that we (and Martin) don't know about.  If he tells us today that there is no corruption in the current government, how can we possibly accept that?  His answer back in the height of the ADSCAM scandal would have been exactly the same...because it was going on around him and he just didn't know it!

Martin made a big deal in his speech about how he's hired more auditors and put in place a lot more monitoring by more independant auditing boards which will report to Parliament so there's no way money can be flung around like this again.

Yet he has steadfastly resisted all efforts to open up the "foundations" he has dumped billions and billions of dollars into. He set them up to be immune to the Access to Information Act - for no justifiable reason, and exempted from oversight or auditing by the Auditor General. And the AG has complained bitterly about them ever since. Despite making some grudging noises over the past two years about changing that he continues to keep them in complete privacy. And each one is run by Liberal patronage appointees.

Among the trusts are the following:

canada millenium scholarship foundation

Canada Foundation for Innovation

Foundation for Sustainable Development Technology

Genome Canada

Canada Health Infoway

Aboriginal Healing Foundation

Green Municipal Investment Fund

Canadian Health Services Research Foundation

Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation

Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences

Forum of Federations

Pacific Salmon Endowment Fund Society

Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities

[Argus]

I agree in principle with FTA Laywers argument. Very well reasoned out!

But I will still vote Liberal in the next election, because there are other issues in my life that take far more precedence that a sponsership deal gone sour.

Okay, honesty and integrity aren't important to everyone.

Unfortuneatly, the PC party is dead now (not completely..they have a splinter Progressive Canadian party with the old bylaws). I would vote for a moderate conservative party like the old PC.

Okay, so you are willing to vote for a party with "conservative" in its name, just so long as it has no conservative policies. I understand completely.

[Semperfi_dani]

Okay, honesty and integrity aren't important to everyone.

No..it is important. But i honestly do not feel that any party can provide that. I live in a Liberal led country, a conservative led province, and a who the hell knows left wing lunatic run city, so i distrust all partys at this point. Honesty is one of those rare things. Unfortuneately there are not enough Chuck Cadmans in politics. But i have also said before, that my vote has to be earned. Right now, i vote Liberal. If the Conservative member in my riding can conivince me otherwise or present him/herself honourably, i can vote the other way too.

Okay, so you are willing to vote for a party with "conservative" in its name, just so long as it has no conservative policies. I understand completely.

If its moderately conservative..yes. The thing is...i agree with conservatives on certain financial principles. And on their stands on some topics. But i don't agree with moral conservatism. If i wanted moral leadership, i will go see my local priest. And i most certainly don't agree with social conservatism. I feel that the current party takes the bar too far to the right.

The Liberals right now, at this point in my life, best represent me on issues that are important.

[shoop]

No..it is important. But i honestly do not feel that any party can provide that.

The Liberals right now, at this point in my life, best represent me on issues that are important.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know if the Conservatives can provide honesty and integrity, but I know without a doubt that the Liberals can't. At least under Paul Martin. I would consider thinking about voting for them again under a new leader...

Just what issues do you consider to be important. (To you I would guess...) Unless there is no room for other points of view

[August1991]

The problem that seems to be getting missed by Liberal supporters is that their leader (Chretien) set up a program that intentionally kept "all members of Parliament uninformed" about how hundreds of millions of dollars were being spent.

This secretive set-up made it possible (and frankly inviting) for at least 10 senior Liberal Party members to put into motion a "kickback scheme" that allowed some 1.14 million dollars to be defrauded from the Canadian government into the Liberal Party accounts.

The fact that Martin didn't personally know (which I'll accept) is hardly something to feel good about. Sure, it maybe allows him to remain personally untarnished by the fraud...but it certainly doesn't make me think he and his party should continue to run the show.

Sure, he's out saying the right things and referring to the RCMP and so on and so forth...but for all we know, there are several other horrible schemes going on in the Liberal Party that we (and Martin) don't know about. If he tells us today that there is no corruption in the current government, how can we possibly accept that? His answer back in the height of the ADSCAM scandal would have been exactly the same...because it was going on around him and he just didn't know it!

I read quickly through this thread and FTA Lawyer's post struck me; I had the same thought today as I followed variously this story. (I don't share with FTA Lawyer a similar naive view of a man who becomes PM of Canada. FTA Lawyer, have you ever met people who successfully aspire to positions of power? They are not ordinary, and certainly not naive.)

This scandal is intriguing for political-watchers because if Martin survives it, it will be a text-book case of how to survive scandal.

IMV, as FTA Lawyer notes, the weak point about Martin's "Operation: Candor"/Gomery strategy is that it poses the question of what other schemes exist that we are not aware of? If we've been taken in once by a PM, how do we know we are not being taken in a second time?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Nixon tried this strategy but it didn't work for him. It might work for Martin. We'll see.

[Guest eureka]

This not the greatest fraud in Canadian history. It is merely the most openly investigated and commented on. The amounts, while significant, do not approach a few others. It is also not right, in my opinion, to forget the past and not note that this has been going on for a very long time at all levels of government. That is what is at issue: ending the culture that leads to these things.

It is rather strange that it should be suggested by so many that we should ignore the worse corrupt practises of other governments as well as the known practise of the Conservative governments that preceded Chretien in doing the same and undoubtedly receiving kickbacks.

The PQ government in Quebec has from its first day in office spent huge sums on Party propaganda and on seccessionost propaganda. It has also spent huge sums on its referendums to break up the country. Those are far more to be condemned than Adscam. A few of you might think this, too, if it ever sunk in that this is where some of your tax dollars go and equalization helps subsidize it.

It has been estimated that the Harris government in Ontario spent around $250 million on promoting Party interests. The news of this made only small headlines and soon faded. Is that not worse than this affair? It makes Adscam look like a peccadillo by comparison.

How eagerly so many jump on Chretien: but for what? For setting up a programme to attempt to counter the taxpayer funded propaganda of the Separatists. I applaud that. The only fault in it was that it would not have been effective as any who know what really needs to be done in Quebec could tell.

Keeping it close in the PMO, why not? It was to him the most important initiative any government could have launched. Did he know of the malefactions? Of course not. He had more to do than set the general direction. Knowing that Martin and others would have opposed the programme and each project why would he have its operations open to Cabinet?

I think this is a time to take off the party hats and take a sober look at this country. If there is real fault to be found, it should be layed at the door of the PQ and the Bloc. It is their attempt to subvert government of Canada and to steal one fifth of its land mass making the country no longer viable, that is the real villain.

And, I am not a Liberal supporter. I have fought them in the past harder than the arm chair critics have ever dreamed of.

One of the saddest things in this is that I should have to make that last statement, The pure partisanship on both sides and the unwillingness to even accept the conclusions of a judicial inquiry, is perhaps the most troubling thing in the whole affair as well as being the inspiration of most of the comment on here.

This should not enter into any voting intention. It is no more than a wake up call to let us know that we need better watchdogs - and that we should insist that CHRETIEN's Election Expenses Act should be better enforced.

[Argus]

This not the greatest fraud in Canadian history. It is merely the most openly investigated and commented on.

If not the greatest in history it's certainly the greatest in modern history.

The amounts, while significant, do not approach a few others.

Such as?

It is also not right, in my opinion, to forget the past and not note that this has been going on for a very long time at all levels of government.

It has? All levels of government have been getting kickbacks from suppliers in the form of cash-stuffed envelopes? Why was I not informed?

It is rather strange that it should be suggested by so many that we should ignore the worse corrupt practises of other governments as well as the known practise of the Conservative governments that preceded Chretien in doing the same and undoubtedly receiving kickbacks.

What worse practices? They were "undoubtedly" getting kickbacks? The Mulroney tories were models of honesty and integrity compared to Chretien's Liberals.

The PQ government in Quebec has from its first day in office spent huge sums on Party propaganda and on seccessionost propaganda. It has also spent huge sums on its referendums to break up the country. Those are far more to be condemned than Adscam.

No, they're not, unless the advertising agencies in question fed kickback money to the PQ.

It has been estimated that the Harris government in Ontario spent around $250 million on promoting Party interests. The news of this made only small headlines and soon faded. Is that not worse than this affair? It makes Adscam look like a peccadillo by comparison.

No, it was nothing like adscam. The federal Liberals have long spent many hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising with liberal friendly ad firms. That is not the point with Sponsorship. The point here was the companies in question were given huge amounts of money to do basically nothing, and then kicked back money to the party.

How eagerly so many jump on Chretien: but for what?

Being a liar and a thief?

Keeping it close in the PMO, why not? It was to him the most important initiative any government could have launched. Did he know of the malefactions? Of course not.

So he kept very close to it and yet knew nothing about it. Because he was an imbecile? Retarded, perhaps? Simply too stupid to understand or question what hundreds of millions of dollars was buying?

And, I am not a Liberal supporter.

You are a Liberal supporter. There is no question on that. Saying otherwise is simply dishonest.

[Guest eureka]

You were not informed, Argus, because you were not in a position to warrant being informed. There is less excuse for you not being informed in general where it only requires taking a little trouble and putting aside your prejudices.

Your logic os also somewhat wanting. You say that it is not wrong to spend taxpayers' money to forward a Party agenda so long as some portion of the money is not fed directly into the Party coffers? I fail to see the difference.

[ScottBrison]

If Jesus Christ himself came down from heaven and pointed the finger at Martin shouting "He did it" you'd immediately convert to Islam and dismiss it all as nothing but a Christian fanatic trying to get back at Martin for gay marriage. Of all the people who might speak about refusing to believe you are the last. I can not imagine any evidence of any kind, whatever type, however much of it existed, which would ever convince you Paul Martin was not the most honest and brilliant politician ever to walk the face of the earth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Man, I'm just wondering if it's possible for you to be more ignorant.

Well, I could be you...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keep wishin pal I know it's your dream to be able to support a real party but instead your stuck with the Conservative Reformed Alliance Party, (C.R.A.P.)

What's the matter? Feel stupid after basically proving how ignorant you are? Can't come up with a good line after you humiliated yourself? Next time you make a reference to something try learning about it first. Heh, no wonder the Extremist Muslims hate the West.

[ScottBrison]

I would read it again, but reading Conservative spin for too long makes blood shoot out my ears........

It's not like there's anything but air in there to hold it in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

....says the guy who didn't even know Muslims believe in Jesus.

[shoop]

Keep wishin pal I know it's your dream to be able to support a real party but instead your stuck with the Conservative Reformed Alliance Party, (C.R.A.P.)

What's the matter? Feel stupid after basically proving how ignorant you are? Can't come up with a good line after you humiliated yourself? Next time you make a reference to something try learning about it first. Heh, no wonder the Extremist Muslims hate the West.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quit being such an insufferable a**hole and use the real name of the party. F*ckwit.

[Argus]

If Jesus Christ himself came down from heaven and pointed the finger at Martin shouting "He did it" you'd immediately convert to Islam and dismiss it all as nothing but a Christian fanatic trying to get back at Martin for gay marriage. Of all the people who might speak about refusing to believe you are the last. I can not imagine any evidence of any kind, whatever type, however much of it existed, which would ever convince you Paul Martin was not the most honest and brilliant politician ever to walk the face of the earth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Man, I'm just wondering if it's possible for you to be more ignorant.

Well, I could be you...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keep wishin pal I know it's your dream to be able to support a real party but instead your stuck with the Conservative Reformed Alliance Party, (C.R.A.P.)

What's the matter? Feel stupid after basically proving how ignorant you are? Can't come up with a good line after you humiliated yourself? Next time you make a reference to something try learning about it first. Heh, no wonder the Extremist Muslims hate the West.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are a very shrill little man, aren't you?

[newbie]

Thank God for opinions! My take on all this mess is much in line with FTA lawyer. I thought that Martin could have gone a little further than he did in parliament yesterday re apologizing on behalf of the party. He was, as just about eveyone has pointed out, the Finance Minister at the time. If he didn't know what was going on, he should have. The unmonitored scandalship program was fostered under Chretien, and allowed to flourish with corruption by a relatively small number of people. Some of the accused were close to Chretien, but the vast majority of Liberal MPs do not deserve to be linked with this scandal. The problem, IMV, wasn't the sponorship program; the lack of safeguards and direction was the problem.