Martin Exonerated

[ScottBrison]

As much as a victory this is for all of us who said Martin shouldn't be held to blame for actions of those around him this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?

[Leafless]

Everyone with a pea for a brain knows this Liberal initiated commission has no legal ramifications and in reality means very little as far as serving any form of justice to the taxpayers of Canada.

But what the tapayers of Canada can do is vote out this corrupt Liberal government once and for all.

[Shakeyhands]

Had the commission squared down on the Liberal Party and given the answer that you so badly wanted, it would have been ok though right?

[ScottBrison]

Everyone with a pea for a brain knows this Liberal initiated commission has no legal ramifications and in reality means very little as far as serving any form of justice to the taxpayers of Canada.

But what the tapayers of Canada can do is vote out this corrupt Liberal government once and for all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I predicted: Once the Gomery commission found Martin not culpable the Conservative Alliance would say the Gomery commission was bogus.

Of course as has already been said if the Gomery commission ruled in favor of the CPC mantra they would be tripping over themselves to say it's legitimate.

[plusgood]

I hate the fact it appears these results change nothing, but maybe it was too much to expect that it would. What I mean is the Conservatives, BQ, and NDP can continue to speculate about how far the corruption went and what different figures knew, and the Liberals can continue to deny. I just don't see the opposition parties allowing these results to change their attack tactics on the current government, which has now be exhornerated. Ah well... makes for good TV?

Press conference soon....

[Riverwind]

Everyone with a pea for a brain knows this Liberal initiated commission has no legal ramifications and in reality means very little as far as serving any form of justice to the taxpayers of Canada.

This kind of response is pretty pathetic - a judge does not give the answer you want so the judge must be wrong. Gomery's wording was quite damning regarding Chretien and he did say clearly the the scheme deliberately funnelled money back into Liberal party - findings that Martin will find it tough to spin. At the same time, Gomery clearly stated that attempts to tie Martin personally to the scandal have no basis in fact. You cannot pick and choose the pieces of the report that you like.

[Leafless]

Sparhawk

You wrote- "This kind of response is pretty pathetic."

This whole effort was nothing more than an inquiry and a total waste of taxpayers money and accomplished nothing.

This INQUIRY could not legally implicate anyone in a criminal sense but simply only could advise Mr. Martin and the Liberals that possibly a certain situation could be pursued in a court of law in which the Liberals had up to two years to decide whether or not pursue these findings or totally reject Judge Gommery's reccommendations.

It should also be remembered this was a LIBERAL inspired commisssion in the form of an 'inquiry' and UNLIKE a CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.

[Argus]

As much as a victory this is for all of us who said Martin shouldn't be held to blame for actions of those around him this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know people like to read what they want into things, but Gomery said nothing about blame. He said that legally he and all the Quebec ministers are entitled to be "exonnerated". That does not mean Martin holds no blame.

The fact is, only a very few said Martin should have known because of his role as Finance Minister. What most said, and what the majority of Canadians believe, according to polls, is that Martin would have known because he was the head of a massive power block in the Liberal party, much of it centred in Quebec. There had been strong public rumours and information about the sponsorhip program for years, which is why the BQ asked repeated questions about it in the Commons. There is no way Martin did not know, unless, of course (and the longer we see him in action the more credible this becomes) he is a complete, blithering imbecile.

[Riverwind]

It should also be remembered this was a LIBERAL inspired commisssion in the form of an 'inquiry' and UNLIKE a CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.

The police have been laying criminal charges when there is merit. If there was evidence that Chretien was guilty of some criminal offence then there is no need for a public inquiry to find that out - the police already have the powers that are required.

Basically, what you are saying is we need to keep having 'inquiries' until one says that Martin is guilty because that is what you want to believe. Those kinds of witch hunts serve no purpose other than advancing the agenda of some opposition parties which would rather get elected by throwing mud instead of actually talking about policy and ideas.

[Guest eureka]

The police have been laying criminal charges when there is merit. If there was evidence that Chretien was guilty of some criminal offence then there is no need for a public inquiry to find that out - the police already have the powers that are required.

Basically, what you are saying is we need to keep having 'inquiries' until one says that Martin is guilty because that is what you want to believe. Those kinds of witch hunts serve no purpose other than advancing the agenda of some opposition parties which would rather get elected by throwing mud instead of actually talking about policy and ideas.

This is about the size of it. This opposition has been opportunistic and is bereft of any policy or ideas.

[I Miss Trudeau]

The fact is, only a very few said Martin should have known because of his role as Finance Minister. What most said, and what the majority of Canadians believe, according to polls, is that Martin would have known because he was the head of a massive power block in the Liberal party, much of it centred in Quebec. There had been strong public rumours and information about the sponsorhip program for years, which is why the BQ asked repeated questions about it in the Commons. There is no way Martin did not know, unless, of course (and the longer we see him in action the more credible this becomes) he is a complete, blithering imbecile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Got any evidence for your speculation, apart from a desire for it to be true?

[Riverwind]

I know people like to read what they want into things, but Gomery said nothing about blame. He said that legally he and all the Quebec ministers are entitled to be "exonnerated". That does not mean Martin holds no blame.

Here is the text of the Gomery report:

On the evidence there is no basis for attributing blame or responsibility to any other Minister of the Chrétien Cabinet, since they, like all members of Parliament, were not informed of the initiatives being authorized by Mr. Pelletier and their funding from the Unity Reserve. Mr. Martin, whose role as Finance Minister did not involve him in the supervision of spending by the PMO or PWGSC, is entitled, like other Ministers in the Quebec caucus, to be exonerated from any blame for carelessness or misconduct.

The wording is pretty clear - Gomery eviscerates the argument that Martin must be guilty or incompetent because he was the "Finance Minister". It is equally ridiculous to say that he must have known because he was a bigwig in the party - the bad blood between Chretien and Martin is well known and it is quite likely that Chretien would have kept Martin in the dark.

[kimmy]

The fact is, only a very few said Martin should have known because of his role as Finance Minister. What most said, and what the majority of Canadians believe, according to polls, is that Martin would have known because he was the head of a massive power block in the Liberal party, much of it centred in Quebec. There had been strong public rumours and information about the sponsorhip program for years, which is why the BQ asked repeated questions about it in the Commons. There is no way Martin did not know, unless, of course (and the longer we see him in action the more credible this becomes) he is a complete, blithering imbecile.

Got any evidence for your speculation, apart from a desire for it to be true?

It's a matter of public record that there was speculation about monkey-business in the sponsorship while Martin was still finance minister. You can certainly find evidence of the BQ asking questions a long time ago, and you can look back to find speculation in the Quebec media.

It's well known that Martin had a large bloc of support within the party including Quebec members.

It's certainly plausible that information about the program was kept from Paul Martin himself. But how believable is it that information about the program was kept from all of Chretien's supporters? And Martin was certainly aware of BQ members asking questions in the house, and of Quebec media speculation. If he'd had any interest in knowing, he could have.

-k

[ScottBrison]

As much as a victory this is for all of us who said Martin shouldn't be held to blame for actions of those around him this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know people like to read what they want into things, but Gomery said nothing about blame. He said that legally he and all the Quebec ministers are entitled to be "exonnerated". That does not mean Martin holds no blame.

The fact is, only a very few said Martin should have known because of his role as Finance Minister. What most said, and what the majority of Canadians believe, according to polls, is that Martin would have known because he was the head of a massive power block in the Liberal party, much of it centred in Quebec. There had been strong public rumours and information about the sponsorhip program for years, which is why the BQ asked repeated questions about it in the Commons. There is no way Martin did not know, unless, of course (and the longer we see him in action the more credible this becomes) he is a complete, blithering imbecile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh my God......... How plain do they have to make it for you people? Does Jesus Christ himself need to come down and tell you? Hell I bet you wouldn't even believe him!

[Riverwind]

And Martin was certainly aware of BQ members asking questions in the house, and of Quebec media speculation.  If he'd had any interest in knowing, he could have.

I don't think even the BQ had any idea about how bad it really was. The rumours I heard sounded like typical the 'contracts for cronies' accusations that virtually every gov't of any political stripe faces. Most likely Martin decided he did not want to know. That is only a bad thing if you believe that people with political ambitions should be willing the commit political suicide because they hear rumours that something fishy might be going on.

[shoop]

Oh my God......... How plain do they have to make it for you people? Does Jesus Christ himself need to come down and tell you? Hell I bet you wouldn't even believe him!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey buddy, why don't you tone down the rhetoric a little. The correct name is the Conservative Party of Canada. If you can't even advance that modicum of respect nobody is going to listen to you.

[Argus]

The fact is, only a very few said Martin should have known because of his role as Finance Minister. What most said, and what the majority of Canadians believe, according to polls, is that Martin would have known because he was the head of a massive power block in the Liberal party, much of it centred in Quebec. There had been strong public rumours and information about the sponsorhip program for years, which is why the BQ asked repeated questions about it in the Commons. There is no way Martin did not know, unless, of course (and the longer we see him in action the more credible this becomes) he is a complete, blithering imbecile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Got any evidence for your speculation, apart from a desire for it to be true?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I said; there are only two choices. He knew, or he's a complete moron. You choose.

[shoop]

One of the great quotes from the report.

I believe that the proposition that Ministers and their political staff have no responsibility for the proper implementation and adminsitration of government programs and policies is an inadequate and incomplete expression of the principle of ministerial responsibility.

If ScottBrison feels this is exoneration, all the much better.

Gomery will be a major issue in the election, for sure.

ETA this quote comes from the report.

[Argus]

I know people like to read what they want into things, but Gomery said nothing about blame. He said that legally he and all the Quebec ministers are entitled to be "exonnerated". That does not mean Martin holds no blame.

Here is the text of the Gomery report:

On the evidence there is no basis for attributing blame or responsibility to any other Minister of the Chrétien Cabinet, since they, like all members of Parliament, were not informed of the initiatives being authorized by Mr. Pelletier and their funding from the Unity Reserve. Mr. Martin, whose role as Finance Minister did not involve him in the supervision of spending by the PMO or PWGSC, is entitled, like other Ministers in the Quebec caucus, to be exonerated from any blame for carelessness or misconduct.

The wording is pretty clear - Gomery eviscerates the argument that Martin must be guilty or incompetent because he was the "Finance Minister". It is equally ridiculous to say that he must have known because he was a bigwig in the party - the bad blood between Chretien and Martin is well known and it is quite likely that Chretien would have kept Martin in the dark.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Complete and utter drivel. Three seperate chiefs of the Quebec wing have already testified they were involved. The Quebec wing was riddled with crooks. It defies belief that Martin had heard nothing of this. But those desperate to portray Martin as a shining hero because of their hate and fear of the opposition will find a way, of course.

[Leafless]

Sparhawk

You wrote- "Basically what you are saying is that we need to keep having 'inquiries' until one said Martin is guilty because that is what you want to believe."

I am against 'inquiries' because they are not like police investigations Gomery's powers are limited and as you pointed out the police have been laying criminal charges where there is merit but who up to now who as went to jail?

The point is, there are for a fact many individuals within the Liberal Party who knows what's going on but can't be proven with a limited inquiry.

It is because of this Paul Martin should have done the right thing regarding the seriousness of this whole scandal and called an immediate election but did not.

This indicates that in fact corruption can continue within the Liberal government and if another scandal is found out simply hold another 'mickey mouse' inquiry and everthing is back to normal.

I certainly hope Canadians have the intelligence to fully understand that it is the 'whole Liberal Party' that should be held accountable.

[Argus]

As much as a victory this is for all of us who said Martin shouldn't be held to blame for actions of those around him this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know people like to read what they want into things, but Gomery said nothing about blame. He said that legally he and all the Quebec ministers are entitled to be "exonnerated". That does not mean Martin holds no blame.

The fact is, only a very few said Martin should have known because of his role as Finance Minister. What most said, and what the majority of Canadians believe, according to polls, is that Martin would have known because he was the head of a massive power block in the Liberal party, much of it centred in Quebec. There had been strong public rumours and information about the sponsorhip program for years, which is why the BQ asked repeated questions about it in the Commons. There is no way Martin did not know, unless, of course (and the longer we see him in action the more credible this becomes) he is a complete, blithering imbecile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh my God......... How plain do they have to make it for you people? Does Jesus Christ himself need to come down and tell you? Hell I bet you wouldn't even believe him!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Jesus Christ himself came down from heaven and pointed the finger at Martin shouting "He did it" you'd immediately convert to Islam and dismiss it all as nothing but a Christian fanatic trying to get back at Martin for gay marriage. Of all the people who might speak about refusing to believe you are the last. I can not imagine any evidence of any kind, whatever type, however much of it existed, which would ever convince you Paul Martin was not the most honest and brilliant politician ever to walk the face of the earth.

[Montgomery Burns]

As much as a victory this is for all of us who said Martin shouldn't be held to blame for actions of those around him this still doesn't mean the Conservative Alliance will back down, why would they let a little thing like truth get in the way of their mad lust for power?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You've got to be kidding me. After months and months of the liberal media trying to supress the Adscam Scandal, and referring to the problems of the "federal govt" (they rarely use the words Liberal Party), and you believe that Martin is exonerated?

Think about who was Fianance Minister while this was going down If Martin isn’t crooked, he must be pretty stupid to have missed all this money going out with little or no return. Either way he is a screw-up. The Gomery Inquiry took place only because Allan Cutler blew the whistle on improper contracts being pushed through Public Works by who?

Paul Martin and the Finance Dept.

[Bakunin]

I think we have to make a distinction with what was said by gomery and what really happend.

Could gomery say that Chretien or Martin where involved out of no doubt, with solid proof ?

No he couldn't, however the important thing is that there have been many fraud, many laws broken and money went to Liberal MP's and to the party. This is all documented in the Gomery report.

However i think that chretien and his friend are the main ppl to blame, that kind of program just fit so much well with chretien thinking style...

[apollo19]

I just saw Chretien's news conference, and a few things stood out for me:

-he was reflecting on his "achievements"

-he explained how he should have the same fate as Martin, as everyone in cabinet (except those in direct contact with adscam) knew the same

-Gomery picked on him and not Martin, as well as not inviting witnesses with positive testimoney

-he was comparing his "balls" (dual meaning with Gomery ) to Trudeau's when he said Trudeau was nervous about him using the Clarity Act, but he (Chretien) wasn't

I think things will go on in spite of the report, and we will have the election Martin said. That said, with regards to predictions of the affect on the voters, I think all opposition parties will gain seats, although I don't want to guess as to the extent.

[FTA Lawyer]

I know people like to read what they want into things, but Gomery said nothing about blame. He said that legally he and all the Quebec ministers are entitled to be "exonnerated". That does not mean Martin holds no blame.

Here is the text of the Gomery report:

On the evidence there is no basis for attributing blame or responsibility to any other Minister of the Chrétien Cabinet, since they, like all members of Parliament, were not informed of the initiatives being authorized by Mr. Pelletier and their funding from the Unity Reserve. Mr. Martin, whose role as Finance Minister did not involve him in the supervision of spending by the PMO or PWGSC, is entitled, like other Ministers in the Quebec caucus, to be exonerated from any blame for carelessness or misconduct.

The wording is pretty clear - Gomery eviscerates the argument that Martin must be guilty or incompetent because he was the "Finance Minister". It is equally ridiculous to say that he must have known because he was a bigwig in the party - the bad blood between Chretien and Martin is well known and it is quite likely that Chretien would have kept Martin in the dark.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As a conservative-minded person, I am fully prepared to accept that Martin had no personal knowledge. The fact is, he'd never have called for the inquiry in the first place if he didn't know that Gomery would ultimately have to come to that conclusion...he's no idiot.

The problem that seems to be getting missed by Liberal supporters is that their leader (Chretien) set up a program that intentionally kept "all members of Parliament uninformed" about how hundreds of millions of dollars were being spent.

This secretive set-up made it possible (and frankly inviting) for at least 10 senior Liberal Party members to put into motion a "kickback scheme" that allowed some 1.14 million dollars to be defrauded from the Canadian government into the Liberal Party accounts.

The fact that Martin didn't personally know (which I'll accept) is hardly something to feel good about. Sure, it maybe allows him to remain personally untarnished by the fraud...but it certainly doesn't make me think he and his party should continue to run the show.

Sure, he's out saying the right things and referring to the RCMP and so on and so forth...but for all we know, there are several other horrible schemes going on in the Liberal Party that we (and Martin) don't know about. If he tells us today that there is no corruption in the current government, how can we possibly accept that? His answer back in the height of the ADSCAM scandal would have been exactly the same...because it was going on around him and he just didn't know it!

Being a high-level member of an organization and having no idea what is going on within that organization is not what I would want on my resume if I was looking for any job let alone that of PM of Canada.

No matter what political party you support, the fact that the Gomery inquiry had to be called and the contents of his report demonstrates a very embarrassing and disgusting state of government in Canada. That the Liberal Party as an institution is saddled with the responsibility is shameful and should be acknowledged as such.

Do not take this comment as me saying that the CPC or NDP or BQ or any other party don't have their own skeletons...I'm not saying that. But stop acting like Martin was not a member of the Liberal Party during this fiasco, and therefore should not feel ashamed...and stop suggesting that because other fiascos have occurred in the past that this one is okay.

We can all continue to disagree about the way in which the country should be governed...its what democracy is all about. BUT, the one thing we should be united in is our condemnation of the events of ADSCAM...even if you are a Liberal Party member.

FTA Lawyer