August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Foreigners believe that America is one country. The President speaks for, uh, America. Americans know otherwise. State laws matter more. Even the county matters. ===== This virus is about to define the true nature of America to foreigners, and some fellow Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, August1991 said: This virus is about to define the true nature of America to foreigners, and some fellow Americans. That happens every four years...state by state...regardless of any virus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: That happens every four years...state by state...regardless of any virus. b_c, you are in denial. This is different. ===== I wondered why guys in the south fought guys in the north in 1861. This is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, August1991 said: b_c, you are in denial. This is different. ===== I wondered why guys in the south fought guys in the north in 1861. This is different. Why is it different ? Why am I in denial ? Why do foreign perceptions matter to states ? Americans fought in 1861 because some wanted to preserve the union while others didn't. It is not complicated. Edited March 28, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Why is it different ? Why am I in denial ? Why do foreign perceptions matter to states ? Americans fought in 1861 because some wanted to preserve the union while others didn't. It is not complicated. Many foreigners - and some Americans such as you - foolishly believe that your president speaks for your country. In fact, America is not one "country": it is many, uh, states/countries. (I'm waiting for border controls between States .... ) Edited March 28, 2020 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Just now, August1991 said: Many foreigners - and some Americans such as you - foolishly believe that your president speaks for your country. In fact, America is not one "country": it is many, uh, states/countries. (I'm waiting for border controls.... ) No...he speaks for the Trump administration. Few Americans think any president speaks for all of them. The U.S. is defined by federalism and states rights....this is not a new revelation, even for foreigners. Border controls already exist in the southwest to protect agriculture (e.g. California). ...all of this decades before any "virus". Quote There is a broader issue. How did soldiers from the northern states defeat those from the south? With more soldiers from more states, better rifles, much higher industrial capacity, railroads, telegraph, and President Abraham Lincoln. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: ... The U.S. is defined by federalism and states rights....this is not a new revelation, even for foreigners. Border controls already exist in the southwest to protect agriculture (e.g. California). ...all of this decades before any "virus". Border between States? But all foreigners, many Americans - including you - are confused about this. Edited March 28, 2020 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Just now, August1991 said: My point. But all foreigners, many Americans - including you - are confused about this. Why do you think we are confused about such basic concepts, drilled into us since 7th grade civics class ? What is your real point here, if you have one ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Why do you think we are confused about such basic concepts, drilled into us since 7th grade civics class ? What is your real point here, if you have one ? B_C, I favour America. I appreciate your Constitution. I even defended Trump. But America is now facing a threat that is different. Comparison? It is like Pearl Harbor 1941 - but you don't know it. To defeat this enemy, you must play together. Like after 1941. ====== a) Printing tons of (Keynesian) money will not solve this problem. (Talk about solving the last war.) b) Individual effort will not solve this problem. (Clint Eastwood is wrong.) ===== You Americans will do this. Iceland did it. We people in Quebec are doing it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, August1991 said: B_C, I favour America. I appreciate your Constitution. I even defended Trump. But America is now facing a threat that is different. Comparison? It is like Pearl Harbor 1941 - but you don't know it. To defeat this enemy, you must play together. Like after 1941. ====== a) Printing tons of (Keynesian) money will not solve this problem. (Talk about solving the last war.) b) Individual effort will not solve this problem. (Clint Eastwood is wrong.) ===== You Americans will do this. Iceland did it. We people in Quebec are doing it. America doesn't know It ? Do you mean the way that Europe didn't know that hot weather would kill 75,000 people in 2003 ? America did not all play together in 1941....we even locked up some Japanese-Americans in camps for four years. The EU is working on helicopter money as well....so....not much different. Quebec is still arguing about lockdown vs. shutdown vs. quarantine...in French of course. ...same as the Americans. =========== Edited to add that I am always amused by foreigners so worried about "America", because they have nobody else. Edited March 28, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: America doesn't know It ? Do you mean the way that Europe didn't know that hot weather would kill 75,000 people in 2003 ? America did not all play together in 1941....we even locked up some Japanese-Americans in camps for four years. The EU is working on helicopter money as well....so....not much different. Quebec is still arguing about lockdown vs. shutdown vs. quarantine...in French of course. ...same as the Americans. You are in denial. ===== And b-c, you don't appreciate what makes your "country" great: You Americans are not "one" country: rather, you live in a place where many people live in civilized peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Just now, August1991 said: You are in denial. ===== And b-c, you don't appreciate what makes your "country" great: You Americans are not "one" country: rather, you live in a place where many people live in civilized peace. Oh God...not that again. Frankly, most Americans don't care what you think about their country....take a number...get in line with all the rest. Better versions of your screed were written during the Vietnam War...America survived. You are on record in this forum for posting that America has no other nation to run to...unlike Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 bush-cheney, If anyone lives in any American state (there are 50), you know that Donald Trump is not the definition of America. Is Vladimir Putin the definition of Russia (there are 89 states)? Gimme a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Just now, August1991 said: bush-cheney, If anyone lives in any American state (there are 50), you know that Donald Trump is not the definition of America. Is Vladimir Putin the definition of Russia (there are 89 states)? Gimme a break. Still not sure what you mean here. Americans live in states, territories, possessions, and in many different nations around the world. Donald Trump is just another U.S. president, same as Barack Obama and those who came before. Don't confuse Trump's ability to garner much more media attention (even in Canada) with definition or symbolism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Oh God...not that again. Frankly, most Americans don't care what you think about their country....take a number...get in line with all the rest. Better versions of your screed were written during the Vietnam War...America survived. You are on record in this forum for posting that America has no other nation to run to...unlike Canada. I frankly care about what Americans think about this virus. It may matter in my life. ==== Vietnam, Cold War. Hmmm..... These were important battles - like Dieppe - that we sometimes lost but ultimately won. Edited March 28, 2020 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Just now, August1991 said: I frankly care about what Americans think about this virus. It may matter in my life. Why ? Why did you ever permit Americans to have such influence in your life ? Americans have a wide variety of views about this virus, from "kill all the boomers" parties to video shaming for not social distancing. It's still a free country. Quote Vietnam, Cold War. Hmmm..... These were important battles - like Dieppe - that we sometimes loss but ultimately won. Dieppe was a battle...not the war. Americans work at a larger scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 b_c, I just listened to your Dilbert guy (typical American). This is not a problem that can be solved by individual effort. - the transaction costs are too high It is an EXTERNALITY. ==== Individuals cannot pay for protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Places like Iceland, Singapore, Quebec, Wyoming, Korea, Saskatchewan will survive, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 12 minutes ago, August1991 said: b_c, I just listened to your Dilbert guy (typical American). Who is this Dilbert Guy that you speak of ? Please be direct...I am an American. Save the riddles for Europe. Quote This is not a problem that can be solved by individual effort. - the transaction costs are too high It is an EXTERNALITY. ==== Individuals cannot pay for protection. That's where you are wrong....individuals are battling the problem right now....in hospitals...on the streets...and in homes. America cannot save you from your own externalities, so lower your expectations. Today I learned that Quebecers call their cabins/cottages..."chalets". They (individuals) are being warned not to flee there from Montreal island as the plague marches over the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, August1991 said: Places like Iceland, Singapore, Quebec, Wyoming, Korea, Saskatchewan will survive, All places will survive....with differing case loads and body counts. Get a grip. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/ Edited March 28, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) B-C, What makes America great is that it is not a single country. Watch what happens in the next few weeks. ===== Thinking about this, I was intrigued about the US Civil War: why did the South do so well? Lincoln/the North had a problem to gain recruits. ===== Whether Wilson in 1917, FDR in 1941, Bush Jnr in 2001 - heck, LBJ in 1965 - you Americans don't work together well. You're individualists. But you are also practical. ========= 1941? 2001? This is a different threat. Like 1861, if your people have a chance to survive -it is because you are a federal republic. Your states will deal alone with this virus. To face this threat, requires collective action. An individual is useless. Organizing 300 million? Maybe in the future. Best? Small collective action - at the state level. As I say, watch what happens. America is an amazing place. Edited March 28, 2020 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, August1991 said: Thinking about this, I was intrigued about the US Civil War: why did the South do so well? Lincoln/the North had a problem to gain recruits. ===== Whether Wilson in 1917, FDR in 1941, Bush Jnr in 2001 - heck, LBJ in 1965 - ypu Americans don't work together. You're individualists. I was reluctant to do this, and do not wish to single you out personally as you have done to me, but since you invoked the word "externality", I am going to remind you of the very sordid disunity and individualism displayed in Canada over the course of two world wars (existential threats). 1) British and Canadians of British descent volunteered and accepted deployments to European fronts far more than French Quebecers. 2) It got so bad, PM King had to engage in numerous conscription games and promises to avoid revolts in Quebec. Domestic unity was more important to King than winning WW2. 3) Once recruited under the NRMA, Quebecers (and other) troops refused to fight outside of Canada, and became derisively known as "Zombies" 4) Once Germany was defeated, the Zombies refused to fight against Japan, as that was not the original promise. Unbelievable but true ! This amazing tale from Canada represents the same individualism and independence in the face of an existential threat. So there is another story about recruits....Canadian style. Quote ========= If your people have a chance to survive? It is because you are a federal republic. Your states will deal with this virus. To face this threat, requires collective action. An individual is useless. Best? Small collective action. No, it requires many different things, including the perseverance to "push through it" even when faced with more deaths. The U.S. has 40,000 firearms deaths per year, and people still fight for individual gun rights. You don't understand America. Edited March 28, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 30 minutes ago, August1991 said: As I say, watch what happens. America is an amazing place. Nice edits from the original....watch what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted March 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: I was reluctant to do this, and do not wish to single you out personally as you have done to me, but since you invoked the word "externality", I am going to remind you of the very sordid disunity and individualism displayed in Canada over the course of two world wars (existential threats). ... b_c, ask any American/Russian on what year the war started. Ask any Brit/Pole/Canadian when the war started. Where was JFK in the summer of 1939? {PS. There's a plaque in Latvia.) ===== Stalingrad? In 1940 - after the fall of France - Stalin was allied with Hitler and America/FDR did nothing. Only Churchill (and Canada/Australia) stood with occupied Europe. Edited March 28, 2020 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Just now, August1991 said: b_c, ask any American/Russian on what year the war started. Ask any Briit/Pole/Canadian when the war started. Where was JFK in the summer of 1939? {PS. There's a plaque in Latvia. Which war ? Ask the Europeans why they started. Quote ===== Stalingrad? In 1940 - after the fall of France - Stalin was allied with Hitler and America/FDR did nothing. Only Churchill (and Canada/Australia) stood with occupied Europe. But not Quebec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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