So much for "The Quagmire"

[Montgomery Burns]

It appears that the Iraq Constitution has passed. I suspected that it had--because the Anti-Bush/Pro Terrorist liberal media had been strangely silent. I would like to congratulate the free people of Iraq on this momentous occasion as well as thank everybody who has been a part in making this happen:

The people of Iraq, the US troops, the brave and loyal coalition troops, and the Bush Administration for continuing the fine Republican tradition (Lincoln, Reagan, Civil Rights Act) of liberating millions upon millions of the oppressed.

I can't wait to see the far left protest the Iraq Constitution.

As for the Democrats, they used to have nads when it came to foreign policy, but none since John Kennedy. Until the Democrats convince the American public that it can protect it from its enemies, they have no chance of winning the White House.

Seriously. Jimmy Carter? Michael Dukakis?

[I Miss Trudeau]

The people of Iraq, the US troops, the brave and loyal coalition troops, and the Bush Administration for continuing the fine Republican tradition (Lincoln, Reagan, Civil Rights Act) of liberating millions upon millions of the oppressed. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're joking, right?

[Montgomery Burns]

The people of Iraq, the US troops, the brave and loyal coalition troops, and the Bush Administration for continuing the fine Republican tradition (Lincoln, Reagan, Civil Rights Act) of liberating millions upon millions of the oppressed. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're joking, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You deny this?

[Guest eureka]

Congratulate them on a Constitution that acts into law a subjection of women that did not exist in pre-Bush Iraq: congratulate them on a Consitution that paves the way to convert Iraq from a secular to a theocratic state.

Congratulate them on a legal framework that is to be altered at the whim of the newly elected at later dates.

Definitely a Reagan, Bush type of tour de force.

[Montgomery Burns]

Congratulate them on a Constitution that acts into law a subjection of women that did not exist in pre-Bush Iraq: congratulate them on a Consitution that paves the way to convert Iraq from a secular to a theocratic state.

Congratulate them on a legal framework that is to be altered at the whim of the newly elected at later dates.

Definitely a Reagan, Bush type of tour de force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eureka hates the fact that the Iraqis are free--free to choose their own destiny.

[Black Dog]

Yawn. Without getting into the massive flaws of the constitution, the voting process, it's worth pointing out that this event is no more likely to end the civil strife in Iraq than the Jnauary elections: indeed, it will only excerbate it.

[crazymf]

BD,

Your glass is obviously half empty.

[Black Dog]

BD,

Your glass is obviously half empty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And why would that be? Could it be because most Iraqis were voting for a constitution that they haven't read, a document which will continue to undergo revisions over the next few months, and which a large portion of the population rejected either by voting "no" (an impotent gesture, given the changes put in by the Shia/Kurdish factions that all but guaranteed a "yes" vote) or boycotting the process. Or could it because I see the constitution's passage as a purely symbolic gesture, and a lousy one at that, given if it passes, the Sunnis will be enraged and the Shi'a factional militias emboldened. If the constitution is defeated, the Sunnis will be emboldened and the Shi'a enraged: in other words: this is a win-win for the insurgency, as it pretty much guarantees the de facto civil war will continue, if not escalate.

[Montgomery Burns]

BD,

Your glass is obviously half empty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And why would that be? Could it be because most Iraqis were voting for a constitution that they haven't read, a document which will continue to undergo revisions over the next few months, and which a large portion of the population rejected either by voting "no" (an impotent gesture, given the changes put in by the Shia/Kurdish factions that all but guaranteed a "yes" vote) or boycotting the process. Or could it because I see the constitution's passage as a purely symbolic gesture, and a lousy one at that, given if it passes, the Sunnis will be enraged and the Shi'a factional militias emboldened. If the constitution is defeated, the Sunnis will be emboldened and the Shi'a enraged: in other words: this is a win-win for the insurgency, as it pretty much guarantees the de facto civil war will continue, if not escalate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, aren't you the Picture of Positivism. Sounds like you long for the days when Saddam was in power.

Btw, I believe Saddam's trial starts this month. Sounds like October 2005 is going to be a bad month for the far left; the passage of the Iraq Constitution (the one that--according to BD--most Iraqis didn't read or understand because they are morons) and the far left's beloved Saddam Hussein going on trial. What a pity.

[Black Dog]

"Unusually high" voter turnout sparks election audit

Iraq’s electoral commission said Monday it intended to audit “unusually high” numbers in results coming from most provinces in Saturday’s landmark referendum on the draft constitution.

The commission’s statement came after Sunni Arab lawmaker, Meshaan al-Jubouri, claimed fraud had occurred in the vote — including instances of voting in hotly contested regions Saturday by pro-constitution Shiites from other areas — repeating earlier comments made by other Sunni officials over the weekend.

“Statements coming from most governorates indicating such high numbers that require us to recheck, compare and audit them, as they are unusually high according to the international standards,” the Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq said in a statement.

The commission said it would take random samples from ballot boxes from areas reporting very high or very low percentages. It did not specify which provinces the unusual reports were coming from, or say to what extent it could affect the outcome.

Look at Nineveh province: a Sunni Arab majority of about 1.7 million, versus 200,000 Kurds and 500-600,000 non-Kurdish, non-Arab minorities, widely expected to be the lynchpin of any Sunni effort to defeat the constitution. Last report from the polls: an overwhelming (78 per cent) "yes" vote. I smell a rat.

[I Miss Trudeau]

You deny this? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't even know where to begin. Basically, this is what you have:

1) Iraqi's voting for pictures at the polls, because it was deemed to be too dangerous for candidates to be known. Granted, thats probably true. But how seriously can you take the results of people voting for pictures?

2) An election, with irregularities that make the Orange Revolution look honest, leading to an interim government that has a mandate to offer up a constitution to be voted on by a certain deadline. If that deadline is missed, the government is to be dissolved.

3) A dissolved government offering up a legally baseless constitution to be voted on.

4) Changes to the constitution being made after the copies were distributed to the people of Iraq. some of those changes coming less than a week before the vote.

5) Yet more irregularities on referendum day.

You'll have to excuse me for being a little bit skeptical of the process. Most Iraqi's had no idea what the constitution entailed simply because they didn't get to see the version that they were voting on, not because they're "stupid."

[crazymf]

Dear I Miss Trudeau and Black Dog,

Iraq has enough troubles without left wing wingnuts like you two trying to find every reason to discourage or sway peoples attitudes around here with the useless rhetoric and excuses to find things wrong with the efforts being expended.

Why don't you think about the aid workers over there trying to help the bad situation and getting kidnapped? Why don't you have a good hard look at some of the videos of the insugents tactics with kidnap victims?

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/index.html

Stomach that and then come and tell us how Iraq is better off without some help.

Come up with something productive for a change, or even an original idea for once instead of just taking a hard line voice of inexperience from the way left field.

Quoting from books and endless websites doesn't really show any individuality or intelligence. How about some opinions based on your life experience rather than theoretical political crappy attitudes.

You two make me sick with some of the stances you take.

[Shady]

Iraqi's voting for pictures at the polls

What an ignorant statement. People go to the polls in Iraq with the very real threat of death, and you think their in it for a photo-op. That says more about you then anyone else.

[I Miss Trudeau]

Iraq has enough troubles without left wing wingnuts like you two trying to find every reason to discourage or sway peoples attitudes around here with the useless rhetoric and excuses to find things wrong with the efforts being expended.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On the contrary, some of those problems might move closer to being solved if more people moved beyond the level of uncritical cheerleader.

Why don't you think about the aid workers over there trying to help the bad situation and getting kidnapped? Why don't you have a good hard look at some of the videos of the insugents tactics with kidnap victims?

Excuse me? Why don't you think of them while you're cheering for policies that serve no purpose but to intensify the insurgency.

Stomach that and then come and tell us how Iraq is better off without some help.

You're so confused its almost painful to see. Iraq needs a lot of help, not symbolic constitutions rammed through by illegitimate governments in highly irregular referendums. Cheerleaders like you are a hindrance to that.

Come up with something productive for a change, or even an original idea for once instead of just taking a hard line voice of inexperience from the way left field.

Ok, you tell me all about your personal experiences creating democracy in the far reaches of the world. I'm all ears.

Quoting from books and endless websites doesn't really show any individuality or intelligence. How about some opinions based on your life experience rather than theoretical political crappy attitudes.

Rah rah rah! Go Bush go! There you go... individual and intelligent thought, by your standards. Happy now?

I notice, though, that you didn't address any of the points I made. I'll take that as tacit support.

I do apologize for typing things that offend your dogmas, though.

You two make me sick with some of the stances you take.

You know what makes me sick? People that like to claim to be great supporters of democracy and liberty, while all the while supporting policies in outright conflict with that supposed belief. In short, people like you.

[I Miss Trudeau]

What an ignorant statement.  People go to the polls in Iraq with the very real threat of death, and you think their in it for a photo-op.  That says more about you then anyone else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you, or perhaps you came up with the most ridiculous interpretation of my words that you could think of for rhetorical gain. Either way, by "voting for pictures" I meant that the Iraqi people didn't even know WHO they were electing to represent them. You know how when you go to vote, there is a list of names on the ballot and you can see who they are? The Iraqis had no such luxury..they were only provided with a list of pictures to vote for. (Edit: perhaps logo is a better word than picture)

So I ask you, how legitimate is an election in which people literally have no clue who they're voting for?

[Guest eureka]

You are so right, IMT. The Iraquis probably voted for whatever picture the clerical leaders showed them.

[I Miss Trudeau]

You are so right, IMT. The Iraquis probably voted for whatever picture the clerical leaders showed them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some no doubt did, just as some effectively do that here in Canada. For the most part, though, I would guesss hat most Iraqi's just..well...guessed.

[Montgomery Burns]

During the Iraq elections last January there were 347 terrorist attacks on voters and polling places. During the Constitution Vote, there were 13 attacks.

So much for The Quagmire™, The Civil War™, The Theocracy™, The Seething Arab Street™, The Brutal Afghan Winter™, The Searing Hot Iraq Desert™, The Secret Afghanistan Pipeline™ and other assorted leftwing droppings.

Congratulations again to the US troops, the coalition troops, the Bush Administration and the Iraqis themselves. Iraq has come a long way. Two and a half years ago, Iraq was run by a maniacal America hating, terrorist supporting dictator, who had ties to Al Qaeda, and a history of using WMD on his own people and on his neighbors. Today, the dictator sits in jail, the Iraqis have approved a Constitution--written by themselves--which guarantees freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of the press.

Iraq is a democracy.

Why were so many against this?

[Black Dog]

Iraq has enough troubles without left wing wingnuts like you two trying to find every reason to discourage or sway peoples attitudes around here with the useless rhetoric and excuses to find things wrong with the efforts being expended.

Why don't you think about the aid workers over there trying to help the bad situation and getting kidnapped? Why don't you have a good hard look at some of the videos of the insugents tactics with kidnap victims?

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/index.html

Stomach that and then come and tell us how Iraq is better off without some help.

1) Why in the name of al that's good and holy would you think a malignant turd like Michael "Savage" Weiner would make a good source of information?

2) It's interesting that you mention aid workers when most aid organizations like the Red Cross/Cresent, Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders etc etc. that are doing yeoman's work are not connected to the Occupation authorities and in many cases, are extremely critical of the U.S.'s handling of the occupation.

3) No one has said Iraq is better off without help. NGO's and aid organizations seem to being making much more progress with limited resources than the bloated and thouroughly corrupt political establishment has with the billions of dollars they have access to (or do you really think the recent revalations like the $9 billion of missing reconsruction money, or Halliburton's oercharging the U.S. government to the tune of $61 million are anomalies?). If it were up to people like you, though, there would be no questioning and no chance to expose the gross incompetence, inefficiency and wholesale corruption of the whole operation to date.

Come up with something productive for a change, or even an original idea for once instead of just taking a hard line voice of inexperience from the way left field.

Quoting from books and endless websites doesn't really show any individuality or intelligence. How about some opinions based on your life experience rather than theoretical political crappy attitudes.

My personal experience tells me its foolish to trust the government. All human endevours tend towards heierarchal modes of organization and it is in just such systems that the worst human traits: greed, ambition, vindictivness and rapaciousness. And its frankly amazing to me that the same people who curse the corruption of the Liberal party hierarchy here in Canada seem to honestly believe in the simon-pure motives of the U.S. in Iraq when the two are, fundamentally, products of the same organizational system and culture.

As for quoting from others, since I lack first-hand experience on Iraq, then I must rely on others' experience. If you dispute that necessity, I suggest you keep your objections in mind next time Bush gives a speech on how much progress is being made in a country he's spent less than a day in.

What an ignorant statement. People go to the polls in Iraq with the very real threat of death, and you think their in it for a photo-op. That says more about you then anyone else.

I would dispute that Iraqis went to the polls for a photo-op. The Kurds and Shiites went in hopes of furthering their ambition of a decentralized Iraq where, coincidentally enough, they would hold the balance of political and economic power. The Sunnis went to prevent their ever-weakening hold on their traditional privilege from slipping further. No one went because they want a unified, secular, democratic Iraq.

During the Iraq elections last January there were 347 terrorist attacks on voters and polling places. During the Constitution Vote, there were 13 attacks.

So much for The Quagmire™, The Civil War™, The Theocracy™, The Seething Arab Street™, The Brutal Afghan Winter™, The Searing Hot Iraq Desert™, The Secret Afghanistan Pipeline™ and other assorted leftwing droppings.

Hey dummy: did it occur to you that, since the insurgency is predominately Sunni, they wanted their own people to vote in hopes of defeating the constitution?

Now that the constitution appears to have passed in spite of widespread resistance by the Sunnis, expect a surge in insurgent activity. The numbe rone rule of counterinsurgency is to deprive the insurgents of a base of popular support. By ramrodding this constitution through, the U.S. and its erstwhile Kurdish and Shiite allies have just handed the inurgents that popular support on a silver platter.

Iraq is a democracy.

I'm sure this isn't the last we'll hear of this meme, as it seems to be a convienent way to open the door for the U.S to extracate themselves from the bloody mess of Iraq while still claiming success. Where's that "Mission Accomplished" banner?

Why were so many against this?

Well, Iran is stoked.

[Montgomery Burns]

Black Dog:

Hey dummy: did it occur to you that, since the insurgency is predominately Sunni, they wanted their own people to vote in hopes of defeating the constitution?

Now that the constitution appears to have passed in spite of widespread resistance by the Sunnis, expect a surge in insurgent activity. The numbe rone rule of counterinsurgency is to deprive the insurgents of a base of popular support. By ramrodding this constitution through, the U.S. and its erstwhile Kurdish and Shiite allies have just handed the inurgents that popular support on a silver platter.

I tend to base my opinion on facts on the ground as opposed to people like you, who base their opinion on what is most likely to make the terrorists win, thus making Bush look bad. There’s a lot of crying going on in the newsrooms of the CBC and the NY Times and amongst many on the left.

I'm sure this isn't the last we'll hear of this meme, as it seems to be a convienent way to open the door for the U.S to extracate themselves from the bloody mess of Iraq while still claiming success.

New Leftwing Mantra! The Bloody Mess of Iraq™

[Montgomery Burns]

I should also applaud the Bush Administration for, as in the case of 1991 when they had the entire mega-reserves of Kuwait in their grasp, turning back over the oil to the local owners, ensuring that for the 1st time in decades a transparent Iraqi govt - not the French, not Chretien's daughter, not the Russians, not the Ba'athists, not the Saddam kleptocracy - now controls its own petroleum.

So much for the disgusting No Blood for Oil™ mantra.

[newbie]

Iraq is a democracy. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9659209

"The returns have raised questions over the possibility of irregularities in the balloting."

Yeah, a good old American democracy.

[PocketRocket]

Landmark Iraq Constitution

We are speaking of the same "landmark" which, as discussed elsewhere, allows the stoning of women???

[Guest eureka]

Try picking your "facts" up from the "ground," M.B. and examining them. Others do it and arrive at intelligent conclusions.

[Black Dog]

Facts on the ground

Meanwhile, insurgent attacks began to heat up again after being nearly silent on referendum day Saturday, when polling stations were heavily protected across the country.

A U.S. soldier was shot and killed in Mosul, 225 miles northwest of Baghdad, early Tuesday, the military said. In fighting in western Iraq, two U.S. Marines and four militants were killed Monday near the town of Rutba, not far from the Jordanian border, the military said. At least 1,979 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count.

Gunmen killed the deputy governor of Anbar province, Talib Ibrahim, spraying his car with automatic weapons fire in Ramadi and wounding two of his bodyguards, police said. Anbar, the vast western Sunni region, is the main battleground between insurgents and U.S.-Iraqi forces.

Militants killed at least nine Iraqis elsewhere Tuesday in shootings and a mortar attack in Baghdad and elsewhere, including an adviser to the industry minister, one of the country's top Sunni Arab officials, police said.

The handcuffed and mutilated bodies of six Shiites were pulled out of a pond where they were dumped north of Baghdad, and three other bodies were discovered elsewhere in the capital.

I should also applaud the Bush Administration for, as in the case of 1991 when they had the entire mega-reserves of Kuwait in their grasp, turning back over the oil to the local owners, ensuring that for the 1st time in decades a transparent Iraqi govt - not the French, not Chretien's daughter, not the Russians, not the Ba'athists, not the Saddam kleptocracy - now controls its own petroleum.

Notwithstanding the fact that they did so only after Iraqis screamed bloody murder over the original plan to privatize and sell off all of Iraq's state-owned industries (including the oil).