You can't oppose immigration

[Yodeler]

I always found that interesting. Any efforts at ensuring immigrants to Canada speak English is met by cries of racism, but no one seems to have a problem with Quebec demanding all immigrants to that province speak French.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tell us more about this phenomena, Argus.

Thanks in advance!

ROTFPIMPALMFAO

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you have something to say I suggest you try and develop sufficient maturity to put it in writing rather than acting like a smarmy idiot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know what you want.

You want me to put my Shakespearen talents to work in explaining why no human being would opt for learning French in a primarily English speaking continent unless thay had some head start in that language, so you can submit it to some small time newspaper ... making an extra handsome profit in the process.

I'm game, but only if we split it that extra profit 50/50!

[RB]

RB

you get the picture

Argus Posted Yesterday, 07:24 PM

Pretty murky picture, really.

RB

I see the folks arrive in Canada with perhaps 15k and after 9months of no integration and false hopes of finding work similar to their previous job in their homeland, they start accepting menial opportunity and falls into the system.  We have the most highly educated taxi drivers around town.

Argus Posted Yesterday, 07:24 PM

Then why do we need more?

Well, immigration is to link to economics, and labor market.

There is a chain reaction from immigration (continuing from previous post)

- Provides Lawyers safe heaven for work

- More social programs needed – lots of new companies

- Refugee claims more work for departments

- More education program (lots private schools)

- More investment - maybe they will employ others

- Promote humanitarian tradition of providing safe haven

- Cultural orientation programs (more new businesses)

- Recognition of qualifications and experience for new Canadian (cost the folks to have this done you know)

- Building new communities, or making bigger old communities - folks do need their roots in order to succeed

- More housing needed

- Facilitate brain drain in other counties so that we can effectively compete in the future - thats a good contingency

- and finally the kicker - Allow real Canadians to exit to the US market

As a result

- less unemployment

- Strong dollar

- Growth economy

- Budget surplus to pay off the debt

Criticism of the immigration system

We import qualified folks based on a point system with no responsibility and view to what will happen to future labor markets or ignore consequences of the business cycle.

For example, it was only recently we make claims of shortages of IT workers and bent on importing tons of IT workers clueless about potential bust in the IT market. What happened to all those shortages, and the lot that came in - I mean are they in tax department?.

Similarly we continue to import engineers and saturate the market with folks who have 20 year old lagging technology and want them to operate in the Canadian market. Now we are asking for truckers to fill the Maritimes.

The immigration system have mostly benefited third world immigrants who are better off even living below the poverty line in Canada compare to their homeland.

If the government truly believes that immigration is linked to labor market then folks migrating should have jobs lined up before entry. So maybe, if we can make it easier for employers to access foreign workers we can have can have a whole lot of desirables entering into Canada.

I mean is this in line with your wishes?

[Argus]

Well, immigration is to link to economics, and labor market.

There is a chain reaction from immigration (continuing from previous post)

- Provides Lawyers safe heaven for work

- More social programs needed – lots of new companies

- Refugee claims more work for departments

- More education program (lots private schools)

- More investment - maybe they will employ others

- Promote humanitarian tradition of providing safe haven

- Cultural orientation programs (more new businesses)

- Recognition of qualifications and experience for new Canadian (cost the folks to have this done you know)

- Building new communities, or making bigger old communities - folks do need their roots in order to succeed

- More housing needed

- Facilitate brain drain in other counties so that we can effectively compete in the future - thats a good contingency

- and finally the kicker - Allow real Canadians to exit to the US market

Without getting into some of the more dubious claims (how does immigration facilitate people moving to the US and why would that be a good thing for us?) I would like to point out that more people certainly increases demand for goods and services, but since they also increase employees available to fill jobs the effect is null. In other words, if you increase the population from 20m (as when I was younger) to 30m (now) you have more jobs and more goods being produced and more consumption of goods and services, but no one is any richer or better off for this. Canada is in no way wealthier nor has our standard of living risen since we were 20m people. In fact, I believe our standard of living and such measures as family disposable income have actually dropped. There is, however, more pollution and more urban sprawl, and some of our cities have risen in size to the point we have some of the American problems with violent street gangs and major traffic congestion.

And again, I point out that one of my major concerns is the loss of Canadian traditions, values and culture because of the continuing flood of foreigners and our relative inability to absorb them.

I mean, if you asked the residents of any city in Canada, or for that matter, any city on Earth, whether they wanted the federal government to flood them with so many immigrants the immigrants would outnumber those born and raised there within 30 years or so I don't think you would get anything other than a resounding, and perhaps violent "NO". But that is what has been done to Toronto and Vanvouver, and with the increase in immigration that will be the situation in many other cities soon as well. And all for no tangible benefit to Canadians.

[Yodeler]

In other words, if you increase the population from 20m (as when I was younger) to ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

20m? That's like 40 years ago.

And here I thought I was the only old fart here.

[RB]

And again, I point out that one of my major concerns is the loss of Canadian traditions, values and culture because of the continuing flood of foreigners and our relative inability to absorb them.

I didn’t address your point on Canadian values and principles because we have to face a reality and include the diversity. The moment you start thinking people are different and foreigners becomes a challenge. You think reflexive, like here are the rules.

I want to let you know that it is Canadians who have invented spatial segregation to keep “others” separate hence your inablity to absorb them.

Look, communities as you might wish to refer to those outside of “Canadians traditions” are mostly imagined and get constructed to fit relations you would like to have e.g. Chinatown. These folks are the usual suspect groups that fit into some rubric of the framework for exclusion for various reasons such as ethnic votes. They get put into "this" or "that" group and we gladly identify them that way.

What I want to say is being “white” is normal and basically invisible and this is what is represented in Canadian traditions, values, and culture.

But, here are some values and principles I respect

- dignity and equality for all

- equal freedom and participate in politics

- equal access to goods and law

- Canadians to care for those less advantage

- Basic necessity of life, food, clothing, house and health

- Justice for all,

- and a land that practice democracy

What values, customs, culture and traditions you were thinking of?

You are not losing your traditions of national belonging, its just that you have forced and reinforced presumed differences for the alienated groups that they have grown in numbers and is problematic

But not to despair because over 70% of the wealth still belong to Canadians.

Is this discomforting I wonder?

[RB]

In other words, if you increase the population from 20m (as when I was younger) to ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

20m? That's like 40 years ago.

And here I thought I was the only old fart here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, Yodeler I hope Argus simply ignore your flare of wisdom, plus your myrid conclusion

[Yodeler]

In other words, if you increase the population from 20m (as when I was younger) to ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

20m? That's like 40 years ago.

And here I thought I was the only old fart here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, Yodeler I hope Argus simply ignore your flare of wisdom, plus your myrid conclusion

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you have something to say I suggest you try and develop sufficient maturity to put it in english rather than acting like a smarmy idiot.

[Argus]

In other words, if you increase the population from 20m (as when I was younger) to ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

20m? That's like 40 years ago.

And here I thought I was the only old fart here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't that long ago. Well, okay, it was. But I don't consider being in your forties as being an old fart!

[Argus]

And again, I point out that one of my major concerns is the loss of Canadian traditions, values and culture because of the continuing flood of foreigners and our relative inability to absorb them.

I didn’t address your point on Canadian values and principles because we have to face a reality and include the diversity. The moment you start thinking people are different and foreigners becomes a challenge. You think reflexive, like here are the rules.

It is difficult, on seeing a woman hiding under a burka, who does not speak any English, who looks with contempt at all western women as "whores" and who thinks the rest of us are Godless heathens, and who would be horrified if her children ever tried to date, much less date a "Canadian" to think of her as anything but a foreigner.

Look, communities as you might wish to refer to those outside of “Canadians traditions” are mostly imagined

I disagree. They are distinct groups of people who came from other countries, and uphold the values, traditions and culture of those other countries, clearly thinking them better than ours (as we all do about our own cultures and traditions).

[RB]

And again, I point out that one of my major concerns is the loss of Canadian traditions, values and culture because of the continuing flood of foreigners and our relative inability to absorb them.

I didn’t address your point on Canadian values and principles because we have to face a reality and include the diversity. The moment you start thinking people are different and foreigners becomes a challenge. You think reflexive, like here are the rules.

It is difficult, on seeing a woman hiding under a burka, who does not speak any English, who looks with contempt at all western women as "whores" and who thinks the rest of us are Godless heathens, and who would be horrified if her children ever tried to date, much less date a "Canadian" to think of her as anything but a foreigner.

Look, communities as you might wish to refer to those outside of “Canadians traditions” are mostly imagined

I disagree. They are distinct groups of people who came from other countries, and uphold the values, traditions and culture of those other countries, clearly thinking them better than ours (as we all do about our own cultures and traditions).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you consider infidels authority on values? They are sinning everyday and often. You want me to believe that these are the folks graced with high morals, and that foreigners should adopt, follow, or mimic their behavior?

I mean your culture is loose and disapproving when it comes to setting examples. Look at your laws set to have sex with 14 year olds

I certainly won’t approve or date fellows who make high claims of the many “whores” they have dated, been with, and how they proceed to boost of their conquest, like their little black book.

Your culture is simply immoral, you sleep around with every moving object, don’t try to impose bad for those that wish to retain decency, those who still believe in purity and have some high standard in place. Why do others have to look at the Western culture for morals when you want to reject theirs.

I guess you are speaking with the wrong person when it comes to dating scene.

In the western world you can justify bad behavior with reasoning of being liberated, a politically correct way to explain terrible behavior.

[Yodeler]

In other words, if you increase the population from 20m (as when I was younger) to ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

20m? That's like 40 years ago.

And here I thought I was the only old fart here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't that long ago. Well, okay, it was. But I don't consider being in your forties as being an old fart!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From long life experience I happen to know that adult males generally shy away from referring to their prepubescent years. So when an adult male says "when I was younger" I think fifteen plus.

This puts you at fifty plus plus in my books.

[August1991]

What a thread. Some randomly chosen thoughts below.

I point out that one of my major concerns is the loss of Canadian traditions, values and culture because of the continuing flood of foreigners and our relative inability to absorb them.

Argus, tell me, what will be "Canadian traditions" in 500 years?

It is difficult, on seeing a woman hiding under a burka, who does not speak any English, who looks with contempt at all western women as "whores" and who thinks the rest of us are Godless heathens, and who would be horrified if her children ever tried to date, much less date a "Canadian" to think of her as anything but a foreigner.

Now you have my attention.

Well, immigration is to link to economics, and labor market.

There is a chain reaction from immigration (continuing from previous post)

- Provides Lawyers safe heaven for work

- More social programs needed – lots of new companies

- Refugee claims more work for departments

- More education program (lots private schools)

- More investment - maybe they will employ others

OMG!!! RB, you would be in favour of each province having its own currency. Imagine the jobs that could be created in exchange counters at airports! Or the forex specialists who would be employed trading in the forward rate between the Albertan riyal against the Quebec livre, or the Ontario florin. Tens of thousands of high-tech jobs could be created if each province adopted its own currency!

In rich countries, free trade will benefit people with capital which includes a large segment of our population today (boomers with real estate, savings, pension plans etc.), however, people without capital will be forced to lower their wage expectations in order to be competitive with offshore labour.

That is simply false.

In the US, for example, unions oppose immigration, knowing that it depresses wages. In Canada, all unions are fiercely supportive of large scale immigration, betraying their workers. Who can explain that but the bizarre mindset of political correctness.

Immigration depresses wages. Argus, that is zero sum thinking. The cake is only so big and if we let in foreigners, we'll get a smaller piece.

I have mixed feelings about immigration.  Iceland and Finland, for example, are among the richest societies in the world and yet immigration to both is negligible.  To be rich and civilized, Canada does not need immigrants.  But Canada, without immigrants, would be horribly boring.

Do you think Finland and Iceland are horribly boring? And remember, you're choosing nations with very low immigration. France and the UK have a lot of immigration, and their streets have many different cultures and skin tones. But we have two or three times as high a rate. Do we need that just so we're not "Boring"?

On my first visit to Finland, I was astonished to discover a place in the world more boring than Canada. (In case you don't know, Canada is an exceptionally boring country - but Finland is evcen more boring!) I have never been to Iceland but I did spend an afternoon in a London pub with some Icelandic women (they were shopping in London). I found them boring. BTW, I do not think boring is a pejorative term.

Why do you believe that? The world's biggest countries are, for the most part, unsuccessful. While some of the world's smallest countries are extremely wealthy.

Very true. The only large country in the top ten is the US. And the US is not really a large country but rather, in practical terms, 50 small independent countries without borders.

This current population is not reproducing, at some point we will reach dire straits when the death rate > than birth rate and what then

RB, the world does not lack for human beings.

I always found that interesting. Any efforts at ensuring immigrants to Canada speak English is met by cries of racism, but no one seems to have a problem with Quebec demanding all immigrants to that province speak French.

In the BNA Act, immigration is a shared jurisdiction. Quebec now selects skilled workers destined ostensibly to Quebec. In the past, other provinces participated in immigrant selection.

Argus, if Ontario wanted to, it could select immigrants who speak English. Do not blame Quebec for your perception of an error in English Canada.

Sometimes I feel that Quebec is a convenient scapegoat for English-Canada. Rather than face some hard truths, English-Canadians can easily blame Ottawa and those French politicians from Quebec.

[Yodeler]

In rich countries, free trade will benefit people with capital which includes a large segment of our population today

That is simply false.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed, August1991.

A large segment of our population my ass!

[August1991]

Yodeler, you selectively edit quotes at the peril of your public credibility.

[Argus]

In other words, if you increase the population from 20m (as when I was younger) to ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

20m? That's like 40 years ago.

And here I thought I was the only old fart here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't that long ago. Well, okay, it was. But I don't consider being in your forties as being an old fart!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From long life experience I happen to know that adult males generally shy away from referring to their prepubescent years. So when an adult male says "when I was younger" I think fifteen plus.

This puts you at fifty plus plus in my books.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your books are wrong.

[Yodeler]

Yodeler, you selectively edit quotes at the peril of your public credibility.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you believe what Sparhawk says .... that a large segment of Canadians are rich?

Then how come most of the comfortably sized apartmants in Vancouver's West End and Yaletown, those not in the "cubicle" category, are bought by foreigners who let them, for the most part, sit empty?

Where are these Canadians with capital that Sparhawk's talking about?

Do Canadians PREFER Murphy beds?

[Riverwind]

In rich countries, free trade will benefit people with capital which includes a large segment of our population today (boomers with real estate, savings, pension plans etc.), however, people without capital will be forced to lower their wage expectations in order to be competitive with offshore labour.

That is simply false.

Would you care to elaborate why you beleive this to be false? Seems like a basic rule of economics - if you can't compete with someone else who can do the same job for less money you have to a) find a new job accept less money for the job you are doing. Since we are in a world now where virtually every job can be done cheaper elsewhere there are not many people who can choose option a).

The only competitive advantage that rich countries have now is the fact they are 'rich': i.e. there are a lot of people with capital living in the rich countries. This means there can be jobs providing services to these rich people as hair stylists, starbucks barristas, dog walkers etc, however these jobs do not typically pay as well as the 'lost' jobs. This implies that even people who choose option a) have to accept a lower standard of living.

[Argus]

What a thread.  Some randomly chosen thoughts below.

I point out that one of my major concerns is the loss of Canadian traditions, values and culture because of the continuing flood of foreigners and our relative inability to absorb them.

Argus, tell me, what will be "Canadian traditions" in 500 years?

I suspect it will be a combination of bowing to Mecca, and arguing over whether Arabic or Cantonese should take precedence as our primary official language.

I always found that interesting. Any efforts at ensuring immigrants to Canada speak English is met by cries of racism, but no one seems to have a problem with Quebec demanding all immigrants to that province speak French.

In the BNA Act, immigration is a shared jurisdiction. Quebec now selects skilled workers destined ostensibly to Quebec. In the past, other provinces participated in immigrant selection.

Argus, if Ontario wanted to, it could select immigrants who speak English. Do not blame Quebec for your perception of an error in English Canada.

In point of fact, Ontario recently requested the same type of immigrant selection independance as Quebec gets and was soundly turned down (ie, not simply no, but HELL NO, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS).

[August1991]

In point of fact, Ontario recently requested the same type of immigrant selection independance as Quebec gets and was soundly turned down (ie, not simply no, but HELL NO, NOT IN A MILLION YEARS).

After a quick look on Google, I found no evidence of such failed negotiations. Trudeau signed an agreement with Levesque in 1978, so I'd be surprised if Martin couldn't agree with McGuinty. You may be referring to sharing settlement costs which is a different issue.

BTW, Ontario has an investor immigration programme.

Again though, if Ontario wanted to give priority to English-speaking immigrants in selecting skilled workers, it could do so. I mention this because I wonder if Canada's immigration policies would change if the federal government did not have ministers from Quebec.

I suspect it will be a combination of bowing to Mecca, and arguing over whether Arabic or Cantonese should take precedence as our primary official language.

The English language itself has gone through many changes in the past 500 years. God knows what languages people will speak 500 years in the future. I suspect it would be hard to call them 'Arabic' or 'Chinese'.

I meant to say that 'traditions' change. If I could hope for any particular tradition to survive, it would be the principle of individual freedom - regardless of what language is used to proclaim it.

[August1991]

In rich countries, free trade will benefit people with capital which includes a large segment of our population today (boomers with real estate, savings, pension plans etc.), however, people without capital will be forced to lower their wage expectations in order to be competitive with offshore labour.

That is simply false.

Would you care to elaborate why you beleive this to be false? Seems like a basic rule of economics - if you can't compete with someone else who can do the same job for less money you have to a) find a new job accept less money for the job you are doing. Since we are in a world now where virtually every job can be done cheaper elsewhere there are not many people who can choose option a).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You still see this in zero-sum terms, or even worse. Accept to work for less? Well, that means someone else at least gains because they get to buy your services for a lower wage. That would be zer-sum thinking. In fact, trade is positive sum.

When a bridge is built across a river, or if someone discovers a new device that makes a task easier, in general, people are better off. Trade is the same. It is true that any change causes people to change the way they do things. Sparhawk, I think you are focussing on this - losing sight of the broader result.

The only competitive advantage that rich countries have now is the fact they are 'rich': i.e. there are a lot of people with capital living in the rich countries. This means there can be jobs providing services to these rich people as hair stylists, starbucks barristas, dog walkers etc, however these jobs do not typically pay as well as the 'lost' jobs. This implies that even people who choose option a) have to accept a lower standard of living.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you mean by 'capital'? Capital comes in two versions: physical and intellectual. All Canadians are endowed with both. We generally own property and most important, we own ourselves and all our intellectual abilities and skills, including our understanding of how the Canadian world works. Foreigners lack that kind of capital.

Most of Canada's wealth is in the form of human capital.

----

Incidentally, there will be fewer immigrants to Canada in the future if it is easy to trade with us. Why come here to work when the work can be done abroad and the product or service sent to us instead? Immigration is often a poor substitute for freer trade.

[RB]

What a thread.  Some randomly chosen thoughts below.

This current population is not reproducing, at some point we will reach dire straits when the death rate > than birth rate and what then

RB, the world does not lack for human beings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well from the low birth rates in Canada it would seem this way. Your politicans believe Canada lacks people, they tell you this and have gone ahead to import more people.

the western world is so liberated and free spirited:

- look we can actually separate sex from marriage

- look we can also legally separate sex for males and males

- and also separate sex from females

- now you can also separate sex and procreation

I mean let me ask this of you, would you folks like to help increase this population with a few kids?

Or you'd rather be independant and free of the burden of children.

[rbacon]

If wholesale immigration is so good why did it cost the taxpayer 18B dollars in 2001 to take care of new immigrants. That is more than we spend on Natives. The problem is not good qualified immigrants it is the extended family class of immigrants that we need to get rid of, and at the same time do not allow them to vote for 10 years at least, that way immigration is of no benefit to any political party, and it gives them time to get to know Canadian Culture and customs. We also need to put teeth into sponsorship rules. Heavy fines for those immigrants that agree to bare the cost of sponsorring relatives and then renege. Immigration is not a right, it is only a priveledge.

[RB]

Ok, do we even have a national urban policy to settle this numerous amounts of people that are coming.

Canada wake up you have a test of color disadvantage in cities like Toronto.

You can bring the most highly skilled workforce, with the greatest of education.

The reality is when they arrive the gaps that exist in their poor conditions of living are rooted in immigrant status, ethno-racial identity and gender?

I don't wish to create hostility - but wanted to ask that if all the "white" Canadians decided to pack up and leave town what will happen to a city full of immigrant population? Toronto already have 58% of foreign born.