Rising Gun Crime in Toronto

[scribblet]

Gun crime in Toronto is rising, I don't care if they shoot each other but innocent bystanders can get caught in the cross fire.   Chief Saunders said they are arresting people but the system puts them right back on the streets. So other than wanting to take away legally owned guns Mayor Tory et al don't seem to have anything to offer;  the province wants to fund more cops in problem neighbourhoods and the Feds - well they want to hug a thug and more day care spaces. 

So what to do, I say bring back the street checks but we know that won't fly, better people get shot I suppose.  That and better border control as they are getting the guns across the border somehow. 

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/killing-carding-the-deadly-toll-of-putting-street-checks-on-ice

As police across the GTA progressively stopped doing street checks over the past five years, gun violence and murders spiked violently, statistics obtained by the Sun through the Freedom of Information Act show.

Back in 2013, when the controversial practice known as carding was increasingly coming under fire over racial profiling concerns, Toronto Police conducted 196,907 street checks — a year that saw 22 gun murders.

In the five years that followed, street checks dropped precipitously — first to 17,001 in 2014 and virtually none in subsequent years.

The city’s cops simply all but stopped doing street checks.

Toronto Police have conducted a single street check in 2018, only 25 in 2017 and none in each of the two previous years.

Meanwhile, gun violence over that time has escalated rapidly — and not only in Toronto.

[Moonlight Graham]

It's typically related to gang activity from impoverished areas in the GTA, same as in other cities like Ottawa.  Regular people don't have a need to carry guns, only if they're selling drugs etc and need protection. 

Gangs act as families for people who don't have solid families at home, which are disproportionately young men of colour from poor families that are often from broken homes aka single-parent homes.  Young women from poor broken homes often have children out of wedlock, give birth to males and then raise them in poor broken homes & the cycle continues. 

I believe the root of this problem is poverty, more specifically that some (certainly not all) of the refugees and other migrants we bring in to Canada do not have the education/skills to make a good living to live above the poverty line & may also come from rough backgrounds back home (making matters worse).

The solution is 5-fold:

1 - More support for refugees and humanitarian migrants like compulsory free language training in english or french, also free college etc. and more investment into settlement programs to support new immigrants, especially those who are poor.  Refugees living in homeless shelters etc is unacceptable, we need to support them if we're going to take them in.

2 - Obvious increase in police and community leadership in poor urban neighbourhoods, and a lot of funding & resources given to schools in these areas.

3 - If 1 & 2 does not stop the trend, we need to look at shipping out refugees who, after given the opportunity to improve themselves for free, are not able to get out of poverty & bad situations.  They could be transferred to less developed economies such as countries near their home country.

4 - Migrants brought here for non-humanitarian reasons (ie: economic migrants) who are stuck in poverty should be sent back to their original country.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Moonlight Graham

[scribblet]

I don't the gun violence in Toronto has anything to do with refugees and I don't think more hoops or community centres will fix it.  Education and better jobs will so how to keep them in school, and out of gangs, so how to get them jobs is a big issue.  Education is pretty much equal here so there's no excuses for not getting a good education at least ending at high school. 

Union President McCormack a while back said that a lack of police officers is the main  reason for increased gun violence and also blamed  the new carding rules.   Hand guns are allready restricted and require special permits for transportation.

I'm not sure that the 'Ferguson effect' is happening in Toronto (police will not step in until shooting over),  but I'll bet there is some effect.   The big majority of illegal guns come from the U.S. so how to stop the smuggling as they obviously can't stop every car crossing the border. 

The hug a thug approach won't work IMO but job and skills training mightthe Eaton Centre shooter was out on bail and house arrest on gun charges when he shot and killed people so - no bail for gun related charges is a start.

Maybe it's just a fact of life in Toronto now and we should get used to it.

 

 

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I believe the root of this problem is poverty, more specifically that some (certainly not all) of the refugees and other migrants we bring in to Canada do not have the education/skills to make a good living to live above the poverty line & may also come from rough backgrounds back home (making matters worse).

The solution is 5-fold:

1 -

Shouldn't `1' be to bring over less refugees and immigrants who have little to no hope of economic success here?

 

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

More support for refugees and humanitarian migrants like compulsory free language training in english or french, also free college etc.

We don't even give Canadian born people free college and you want to pay for it for immigrants and refugees? So now anyone can stroll across the border, call himself a refugee, get free health care and a college degree? Jesus, aren't you generous!

By the way, the primary group involved in street gangs in Toronto, according to an article in Macleans, are Jamaicans. They already speak English. Language is not their issue. They're simply continuing with the culture of violence they grew up with in Jamaica.

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

and more investment into settlement programs to support new immigrants, especially those who are poor.

Or stop bringing in poor people who are going to need goverment services their whole lives and will never pay taxes.

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

4 - Migrants brought here for non-humanitarian reasons (ie: economic migrants) who are stuck in poverty should be sent back to their original country.

We shouldn't be taking most 'refugees' either. Most do not qualify under UN definitions. That includes almost all the Syrians, who are doomed to live in poverty the rest of their lives here.

[Argus]

16 minutes ago, scribblet said:

I don't the gun violence in Toronto has anything to do with refugees and I don't think more hoops or community centres will fix it.

There was a Macleans article by Linda Frum a few years back, the last time gun violence there got the media's attention. It said almost all of it was by Jamaican street gangs.

In Ottawa, I can tell you most of it is Somalian street gangs. We don't have numbers because the authorities hide them from us. But I recall an article in the Citizen a few years ago which was on efforts at creating a youth community centre for Somalians, and the reporter let slip that this was really needed since more than half the youths in detention in the Ottawa detention centre were Somalis. That should give you some indication of how big a part refugees play in crime here.

 

16 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Union President McCormack a while back said that a lack of police officers is the main  reason for increased gun violence and also blamed  the new carding rules.   Hand guns are allready restricted and require special permits for transportation.

Canada has among the lowest proportion of police to population in the western world. That was okay when we were a more homogeneous community, but the arrival of millions of immigrants and refugees, especially from places like Somalia and Jamaica, have greatly increased street violence.

16 minutes ago, scribblet said:

I'm not sure that the 'Ferguson effect' is happening in Toronto (police will not step in until shooting over),  but I'll bet there is some effect. 

There is. The propaganda among the left with the BLM nonsense has definitely spread to Canada, so much so you have the same anti-police attitude and refusal to cooperate among Blacks here.

 

[Moonlight Graham]

5 hours ago, scribblet said:

I don't the gun violence in Toronto has anything to do with refugees and I don't think more hoops or community centres will fix it.  Education and better jobs will so how to keep them in school, and out of gangs, so how to get them jobs is a big issue.  Education is pretty much equal here so there's no excuses for not getting a good education at least ending at high school.

A lot of these shootings are coming from gangs with members coming from poor immigrant communities in our cities.  Somalians, Jamaicans etc., a lot of them are refugees or children of refugees growing up in impoverished homes in poor Canadian neighbourhoods. I know a lot of good Somalians and Jamaicans, but these poor communities contain young men at risk.

We either need to help these people, or not let them into the country if they can't be helped.

[Moonlight Graham]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

We don't even give Canadian born people free college and you want to pay for it for immigrants and refugees? So now anyone can stroll across the border, call himself a refugee, get free health care and a college degree? Jesus, aren't you generous!

I wouldn't give these things to refugee claimants, only proven refugees.  The effectiveness of the refugee system here is another matter.

Quote

Or stop bringing in poor people who are going to need goverment services their whole lives and will never pay taxes.

I agree.  But I'm willing to help people who have a chance to make something of themselves, and staying in Canada should be on the condition that they do.  But if you're 40 years old and don't have a high school diploma your chance of economic success is very minimal.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I wouldn't give these things to refugee claimants, only proven refugees.  The effectiveness of the refugee system here is another matter.

I agree.  But I'm willing to help people who have a chance to make something of themselves, and staying in Canada should be on the condition that they do.  But if you're 40 years old and don't have a high school diploma your chance of economic success is very minimal.

So how come you're not offering free college to Canadian born people then?
Immigration should be simple. You wanna come here and can prove you can make it on your own, okay. But if you can't, then you can't come. And if you come you're not eligible for welfare or other social services. Either make it on your own or leave.

As for refugees, almost all the ones we've accepted should have either been rejected as non-compliant with the UN refugee charter we signed, or be in refugee camps near where they live so they can go back as circumstances change.

I understand, for example, we're getting lots of Nigerians lately who fly to Europe, then the states, then here to claim refugee status because they say they're bisexual. Apparently more than half of them are making the same claim with the same circumstances, most likely because they've been coached by the same immigration lawyers. None of them should be accepted. None should even be allowed to apply since they bypassed Europe and the US to get here.

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

A lot of these shootings are coming from gangs with members coming from poor immigrant communities in our cities.  Somalians, Jamaicans etc., a lot of them are refugees or children of refugees growing up in impoverished homes in poor Canadian neighbourhoods. I know a lot of good Somalians and Jamaicans, but these poor communities contain young men at risk.

We either need to help these people, or not let them into the country if they can't be helped.

We have refugee communities from all over the world. If it's a matter of a lack of 'help' why is it we have so much violence from just a very few specific communities?

[scribblet]

3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

A lot of these shootings are coming from gangs with members coming from poor immigrant communities in our cities.  Somalians, Jamaicans etc., a lot of them are refugees or children of refugees growing up in impoverished homes in poor Canadian neighbourhoods. I know a lot of good Somalians and Jamaicans, but these poor communities contain young men at risk.

We either need to help these people, or not let them into the country if they can't be helped.

And there's the rub...   if we become more selective looking for people who would be a good fit economically for Canada we would be called racist; therefore we have to allow third world immigrants who likely will never be successful (some will be of course).    No one wants to address the issue of where the crime is coming from and which communities, if we did the likes of Desmond Cole would be on his high horse excoriating everyone as racist so this is what we are up against. 

[Moonlight Graham]

11 minutes ago, scribblet said:

And there's the rub...   if we become more selective looking for people who would be a good fit economically for Canada we would be called racist; therefore we have to allow third world immigrants who likely will never be successful (some will be of course).    No one wants to address the issue of where the crime is coming from and which communities, if we did the likes of Desmond Cole would be on his high horse excoriating everyone as racist so this is what we are up against. 

Yeah isn't it wonderful that innocent people are being shot and killed because we, the media, and politicians are all afraid to be politically incorrect.

Logically nobody wants the social stigma of being labelled a racist and some people are more than willing to try to tack that label on people.  I guess we should just have more courage and stand up to the moral bullies.

[scribblet]

1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Yeah isn't it wonderful that innocent people are being shot and killed because we, the media, and politicians are all afraid to be politically incorrect.

Logically nobody wants the social stigma of being labelled a racist and some people are more than willing to try to tack that label on people.  I guess we should just have more courage and stand up to the moral bullies.

If the Liberals win a majority and the Somali immigration minister is re-elected we can look forward to many more from Somalia...   if that happens then I guess we just suck up the gun violence and say C'est la vie, welcome to Canada. 

[Moonlight Graham]

26 minutes ago, scribblet said:

 if we become more selective looking for people who would be a good fit economically for Canada we would be called racist; therefore we have to allow third world immigrants who likely will never be successful (some will be of course).

The problem is that we are not selective in any way in how good of a fit economically asylum seekers are.  They don't have to know a word of english or french etc.

We check for criminality and medical checks, that's it.  Did you know that we will give asylum seekers who have HIV permanent residence and citizenship in this country?  Having HIV is not considered in itself a valid reason to reject an applicant

Edited August 13, 2019 by Moonlight Graham

[scribblet]

1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The problem is that we are not selective in any way in how good of a fit economically asylum seekers are.  They don't have to know a word of english or french etc.

We check for criminality and medical checks, that's it.  Did you know that we will give asylum seekers who have HIV permanent residence and citizenship in this country?  Having HIV is not considered in itself a valid reason to reject an applicant.

Yes, and you can have TB and other illness which are a drain on our overburdened health system...  meanwhile they continue to come through at Quebec but will now be fast tracked to Ontario where there is allready overcrowding and more people on the streets as shelters etc. are allready overburdened.   

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/04/20/asylum-seekers-will-be-fast-tracked-to-ontario-starting-next-week.html

[Moonlight Graham]

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/standard-requirements/medical-requirements/surveillance-notifications/procedure-hiv-positive-cases.html

Quote

All foreign nationals, including those applying for permanent or temporary residency, found to be HIV positive during the immigration process must be issued a copy of the Health follow-up handout: HIV infection document.

Automatic partner notification of sponsored family class applicants who test positive for HIV

Applicants in the family class and the dependent refugee class who test positive for HIV may not be assessed as medically inadmissible due to excessive demand on Canada’s health care system [A38(2)]. Their sexual partners residing in Canada must be made aware of the risk this serious medical condition may place on their health.

So they're given a pamphlet, have to disclose their HIV to their partner, and attend post-test counseling.  Unbelievable.

[scribblet]

Imagine doing the sensible thing

 https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/mandel-retired-senior-toronto-cop-blasts-chief-calls-for-street-checks