Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 I don't want this topic to simply be "Let's say bad things about the United States." I did not start this as a US bashing subject, but to honestly explore the causes. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Uh-oh...looks like Canada ranks lower than the United States (#14 vs. #20) for logistics performance, which includes transportation infrastructure. I should probably start another thread to discuss what is wrong with Canada.... Feel free. This is not a topic meant to just say nasty things about the US. I'm asking honest questions based on the cite, as well as my own experiences. You're getting defensive instead of just trying to answer the question. I like the states. I'm not bashing it. I've enjoyed my visits. But there are clearly major problems which are impossible to ignore. So why do you guys ignore them? Edited February 24, 2019 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Argus said: In a larger country, goods and people move around more. That does not make your infrastructure more productive then that of a smaller country which does not require so much movement. Doesn't matter...the metric is based on PER CAPITA transport miles and GDP.....regardless of size. Canada is far behind the United States. Quote The problems of Canadian cities can be the subject of another thread. But briefly, most cities lack the population base, or are spread out more due to having lots of space to do so. Toronto is almost as big (geographically) as New York with a third its population base so its harder for them to pay for the expansion of their subway system. Ottawa's LRT is under construction now, but has a very large geographical area to serve compared to the population that lives there. In other words, excuses for Canada's failures good...excuses for the USA are not allowed. Ottawa's LRT is a bigger cluster fuque than many in the U.S. Edited February 24, 2019 by bush_cheney2004 Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 1 hour ago, OftenWrong said: Hah! You used to have ten times more opportunity. Now you're only about, 7 or 8 times. The US is now in 18th place as far as income mobility goes. Why? You used to be number one. Now it takes 5 generations on average for people to work their way out from poverty to earning the national average. Social mobility by country "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, Argus said: Feel free. This is not a topic meant to just say nasty things about the US. I'm asking honest questions based on the cite, as well as my own experiences. You're getting defensive instead of just trying to answer the question. I like the states. I'm not bashing it. I've enjoyed my visits. But there are clearly major problems which are impossible to ignore. So why do you guys ignore them? Not true...I have already posted a summary of California's high speed rail project failure. Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said: More fun with numbers.....as of 2017... 7 out of the world's top 25 busiest airports are in the United States. ("Modern" China has just 3...Canada has none). I don't get how you think this matters. You have one of the world's largest populations, and also a very large country. And you're rich. Naturally there's an awful lot of flying around going on. That doesn't mean your airports aren't rundown and desperately in need of expansion and upgrading. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 Just now, Argus said: I don't get how you think this matters. You have one of the world's largest populations, and also a very large country. And you're rich. Naturally there's an awful lot of flying around going on. That doesn't mean your airports aren't rundown and desperately in need of expansion and upgrading. ...and yet they produce more passenger miles than any other nation in the world. China has over 1,000,000,000 people, but still trails behind the U.S. for passenger and commercial transport miles. What do you think we build transport infrastructure for ? Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Doesn't matter...the metric is based on PER CAPITA transport miles and GDP.....regardless of size. Canada is far behind the United States. Per capita does not change the fact that your people naturally move around a lot more given the size of the country and its wealth. People in Ireland don't need to move around so much to see granny, or to ship some goods around within its borders. And Canada's problems with its large geographical distances and small (comparative) population are well-known. 3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: In other words, excuses for Canada's failures good...excuses for the USA are not allowed. But you haven't' MADE any such excuses for US failures. Instead you've simply denied there are any. 3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Ottawa's LRT is a bigger cluster fuque than many in the U.S. Than Boston's BIg Dig? Hardly. On what do you base this? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: ...and yet they produce more passenger miles than any other nation in the world. China has over 1,000,000,000 people, but still trails behind the U.S. for passenger and commercial transport miles. China is still a poor country. Most of its people can't afford to fly around much. Hell, a lot of them don't even have toilets. 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: What do you think we build transport infrastructure for ? You have still completely failed to address the point of why things are so run down. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Argus said: Per capita does not change the fact that your people naturally move around a lot more given the size of the country and its wealth. People in Ireland don't need to move around so much to see granny, or to ship some goods around within its borders. And Canada's problems with its large geographical distances and small (comparative) population are well-known. More excuses....the metric purposely combines PER CAPITA passenger/commercial transport miles with GDP because the two are very much related....USA is #1...by far with its existing ("crumbling") infrastructure. Canada is not even in the running...doesn't even have all twinned highways coast to coast....just more excuses. Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Argus said: China is still a poor country. Most of its people can't afford to fly around much. Hell, a lot of them don't even have toilets. They can afford to buy most of Vancouver Island. Quote You have still completely failed to address the point of why things are so run down. They are run down because they are used to facilitate the most productive transportation infrastructure in the world. Many of Canada's truckers prefer the U.S. interstate system to more goods east-west....and American built trucks. Edited February 24, 2019 by bush_cheney2004 Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: More excuses....the metric purposely combines PER CAPITA passenger/commercial transport miles with GDP because the two are very much related....USA is #1...by far with its existing ("crumbling") infrastructure. But the metric completely ignores the relative geographical sizes of the countries involved and the impact large and small populations places on the costs of establishing infrastructure across varying distances. The economics of high speed travel work for China and Europe because of their large population, but don't work for Canada for obvious reasons. They would work in the US because of your large population but even so you can't get any built. 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Canada is not even in the running...doesn't even have all twinned highways coast to coast....just more excuses. You are simply going defensive again, denying there are ANY problems and instead looking for reasons to attack Canada. I'm not attacking the US. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: They are run down because they are used to facilitate the most productive transportation infrastructure in the world. Your believe in how productive it is is fantasy. And they are run down because money has not been put into maintaining and upgrading them, as well as governmental incompetence. Trump himself has said so. Are you calling him a liar? Edited February 24, 2019 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Argus said: But the metric completely ignores the relative geographical sizes of the countries involved and the impact large and small populations places on the costs of establishing infrastructure across varying distances. The economics of high speed travel work for China and Europe because of their large population, but don't work for Canada for obvious reasons. They would work in the US because of your large population but even so you can't get any built. The metric associated transportation infrastructure with economic output on a per capita basis. This is how many indicators are measured and ranked. The USA's existing infrastructure with all of its "problems" still out performs all others in the world...by far. It is still doing the things it was designed to do. Quote You are simply going defensive again, denying there are ANY problems and instead looking for reasons to attack Canada. I'm not attacking the US. I am not attacking Canada....if comparisons are going to be made for the United States...then Canada is also in the mix. Canada is ranked lower than the United States for logistics performance. Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, Argus said: Your believe in how productive it is is fantasy. And they are run down because money has not been put into maintaining and upgrading them, as well as governmental incompetence. Trump himself has said so. Are you calling him a liar? This is desperate...now Trump is your guidance ? Money goes to many things, and infrastructure investment must compete with other priorities. Decisions are made...and projects are funded or not. It's not rocket science. Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: The metric associated transportation infrastructure with economic output on a per capita basis. This is how many indicators are measured and ranked. Oh bullshit. You can't ignore that it's way easier and cheaper to establish infrastructure in a small, heavily populated country than a large, lightly populated one. It makes no sense to compare the two. Quote The USA's existing infrastructure with all of its "problems" still out performs all others in the world...by far. Bullshit. It's old, run-down and falling apart. Other countries can move goods and people around far faster and more easily than the US. Your own president, a man you worship, has said as much. Quote I am not attacking Canada....if comparisons are going to be made for the United States...then Canada is also in the mix. Canada is ranked lower than the United States for logistics performance. Because it has a large size and small population - as you know. You have not yet come up with a single reasonable discussion point about the problem with America's infrastructure except to pretend they don't exist. Edited February 24, 2019 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: This is desperate...now Trump is your guidance ? Money goes to many things, and infrastructure investment must compete with other priorities. Decisions are made...and projects are funded or not. It's not rocket science. True. It's not rocket science to build a high speed rail network. So how come you can't do it? You've got the population base. Why are your roads and bridges in such shitty condition? You've got the population base to easily support them. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, Argus said: Oh bullshit. You can't ignore that it's way easier and cheaper to establish infrastructure in a small, heavily populated country than a large, lightly populated one. It makes no sense to compare the two. Bullshit. It's old, run-down and falling apart. Other countries can move goods and people around far faster and more easily than the US. Your own president, a man you worship, has said as much. If it is "bullshit", then why don't these smaller nations enjoy a huge economic productivity advantage over the United States ? Your argument actually undermines your position....the very large United States has been able to build out the most productive infrastructure in the world, regardless of what Trump says/thinks. Quote Because it has a large size and small population - as you know. You have not yet come up with a single reasonable discussion point about the problem with America's infrastructure except to pretend they don't exist. Nonsense...I have already discussed California's high speed rail line FAILURE above....maybe you missed those posts. Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, Argus said: True. It's not rocket science to build a high speed rail network. So how come you can't do it? You've got the population base. Why are your roads and bridges in such shitty condition? You've got the population base to easily support them. We are building them....other high speed projects are underway in Florida and Texas. There is a brand new bridge just a few miles down the road from my house.....opened in 2017: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Croix_Crossing Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 Looks like the US is not very different from other nations facing infrastructure challenges...same reasons...not a big surprise: Germany — yes, Germany — has an infrastructure problem Economics trumps Virtue.
QuebecOverCanada Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 21 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: True, and the USA where the Americans live is and has been the #1 destination for immigrants from around the world (including Canada) for over 100 years. The USA still offers far more opportunity than many other countries claiming to be superior. According to the Canada 2006 Census, 316,350 Canadians reported American as being their ethnicity, at least partially. There are also between 900,000 and 2 millionAmericans living in Canada, either as full-time or part-time residents. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Canadians This goes both ways, I don't think USA is a bad country at all, but it isn't as wholesome as some would make us believe from A to Z. There are problems in the US, and it has to do with its governance.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said: This goes both ways, I don't think USA is a bad country at all, but it isn't as wholesome as some would make us believe from A to Z. There are problems in the US, and it has to do with its governance. Meh....the USA is the same as it ever was...with both good and bad attributes. It has survived and thrived this way, becoming the world's lone superpower...has far less to do with being "wholesome". Far more Canadians cross the U.S. border each year than Americans going north by a 2:1 ratio, and the U.S. has 10X the population. Think about that and the reasons why. Apparently U.S. governance is plenty good enough for the Canadian government as well, with close economic and military dependencies. Edited February 24, 2019 by bush_cheney2004 Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said: If it is "bullshit", then why don't these smaller nations enjoy a huge economic productivity advantage over the United States ? We're only talking about infrastructure. And insofar as that's concerned, who says they don't? 1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Your argument actually undermines your position....the very large United States has been able to build out the most productive infrastructure in the world, regardless of what Trump says/thinks. There's zero evidence it's more productive. 1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Nonsense...I have already discussed California's high speed rail line FAILURE above....maybe you missed those posts. I read the cite. It boils down to lousy government. Is that why you can't develop high speed rail anywhere in the US? Because there's lousy government everywhere? You don't think the French have lousy governments? That NYMBY isn't an issue over there too? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted February 24, 2019 Author Report Posted February 24, 2019 45 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Looks like the US is not very different from other nations facing infrastructure challenges...same reasons...not a big surprise: Germany — yes, Germany — has an infrastructure problem Hmmm. From your cite. In 2006, Germany ranked third in the World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness Report for the overall quality of its transport infrastructure. This year, it has slipped to 11th place, while the United States ranked 13th. Also. Last month, Germany's Federal Ministry of Transport and Digital Infrastructure adopted a plan to spend 269 billion euros (roughly $300 billion) on construction and modernization of the country's infrastructure over the next 15 years. The plan prioritizes repairing existing systems, with 70 percent of funds allocated toward maintenance. So where is your national infrastructure program? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
QuebecOverCanada Posted February 24, 2019 Report Posted February 24, 2019 1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Meh....the USA is the same as it ever was...with both good and bad attributes. It has survived and thrived this way, becoming the world's lone superpower...has far less to do with being "wholesome". Far more Canadians cross the U.S. border each year than Americans going north by a 2:1 ratio, and the U.S. has 10X the population. Think about that and the reasons why. Apparently U.S. governance is plenty good enough for the Canadian government as well, with close economic and military dependencies. Yes far more Canadians cross the US border because the cartels of milk for example and other products that are much cheaper in border towns in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_diaspora But as a whole, there are about 1m Canadians in the US, while there are 2m Americans in Canada. The two countries are very good, I like the US, but it's not because it is a superpower militarily that it is that good of a country to live in. It's not that easy to get by in the US, it's not as unregulated as some people think, it's certain that the standards of living in the US are good, but there are lots of hidden fees and obstacles for living a great life. Many people live very poorly. You have ghettos in your big, richest States like California. Even in Montréal we don't have that much abject poverty. Yes there are homeless people in Canada, but in the US you have entire slums. The poorest and 'most dangerous' part of town in Montréal is called 'Montréal-Nord', and you see no slums like in California, and no shooting, no violence. People are poor, some people are drunk late at night in the streets, but it isn't that dangerous nor does it feel that much of a ghetto. In the US, if you're ambitious and specifically want a white collar job, you have to live in a big city, where the rent is enormous. In San Francisco for instance, $100K a year is considered poor. Yes the white collar workers make a lot of money, but they spend about half of it on rent in the hopes of maybe making it, which most of them wont, and will spend years and years trying to catch a carrot they won't be able to reach. For the rural areas, white collar jobs are scarce. So the blue collar jobs are there, they pay well, but are mostly short term. You have the habit to live a certain lifestyle, then realize that you lost your job and have to figure out how to pay for the credit on almost everything you own. The entrepreneurial route though is very good in the US. There are many advantages to be your own boss and to also own your employees, who also are ambitious and want to perform so they will get a promotion or something in return.
Recommended Posts