Gas $1.14 A Litre In Quebec

[kimmy]

You really need to add truck drivers into this category: our society depends on the battalions of trucks quietly shuttling goods from place to place. Many drivers are owner-operators who can't easily renogotiate contracts with customers. I would also say the same for taxi drivers which provide a essential service for any city with a significant tourism industry. I would like gov't to target tax relief for high gas prices to these groups and let the SUV owners stew in their own fumes.

Well, that's true of course, but I didn't consider them because it's part of their cost of doing business, and inevitably a cost that'll be passed along to their customers.

-k

[Riverwind]

Well, that's true of course, but I didn't consider them because it's part of their cost of doing business, and inevitably a cost that'll be passed along to their customers.

The trouble is the marketplace takes time to 'correct' and many hardworking individuals suffer in the meantime. You can also argue that 'subsidizing' the trucking industry will help keep a lid on oil induced inflation which, in turn, keeps interest rates down.

[kimmy]

My rant was directed at people whose taste in luxuries-- expensive vehicles and homes in exclusive locations-- has put them in their current situation. I'm sure you could make a good argument for government involvement (I think local governments are already involved in taxi fares, in fact) and if there's social benefit to be had, then I'm not opposed. I think the benefits of subsidizing public transit to continue to keep rates low, for instance, are worth the cost. If there's a similar argument to be made for freight vehicles, then I'm open to the idea.

However, I'm certainly not open to the idea of subsidizing people whose lifestyle choices have put them in a predicament with regard to mushrooming fuel prices.

-k

[Cartman]

However, I'm certainly not open to the idea of subsidizing people whose lifestyle choices have put them in a predicament with regard to mushrooming fuel prices.

I would agree. There must be a way to sheild freight vehicles from such rising costs, at least until contracts can be renewed. My beef is with people who voluntarily drive Yukons, Escalades and Hummers etc. to drive their kids to school. If fuel is so cheap that you can afford to drive these kinds of vehicles for pleasure use, then I have little sympathy.

I have driven a small car pretty much all my life simply because I did not want to contribute to pollution. But with so many people driving massive vehicles, I briefly considered buying an Avalanche as my visibility is frequently reduced. With this fuel increase, hopefully others will downsize and I can keep buying efficient cars.

Apparently Daimler is taking a bath on their Smart cars ($1 billion loss so far) in Europe.

[mirror]

Regulate gas prices: Layton

The NDP have been urging the government to implement some form of national price regulation that moderates the impact of price spikes in gasoline similar to a system in P.E.I. where prices are set each month. "It levels things out," Layton said.

Does anyone else get the feeling that this may become our "hot button" issue this Fall?

[mirror]

Ottawa needs a high oil price plan: Duceppe

Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe has joined the NDP's Jack Layton in calling on the federal government to do more to regulate skyrocketing oil prices.

Ottawa should convene the Standing Committee on Industry as early as this week in order to devise a plan to deal with high oil prices, Duceppe said Saturday.

A spokesperson for the party confirmed that Bloc members of the committee are trying to persuade representatives from the other parties to agree to meet earlier.

If a majority of the members agree, the committee can meet even though Parliament is not sitting.

Once again, where's Harper?

[B. Max]

Regulate gas prices: Layton

The NDP have been urging the government to implement some form of national price regulation that moderates the impact of price spikes in gasoline similar to a system in P.E.I. where prices are set each month. "It levels things out," Layton said.

Does anyone else get the feeling that this may become our "hot button" issue this Fall?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I heard layton say that. What nonsense. Prices are just as high in PEI as the rest of the country if not higher.

[Guest eureka]

The number of motorists is not entirely governed by their choice. It is in considerable part the result of the suburbanism that Kimmy skips over when she rightly criticizes exurbia. Much of our city populations have no other means than cars to shop, work, or simply visit friends.

The crisis that has merely arrived a little earlier than might have been anticipated could well force the entire rethinking of urban construction planning. We might have to close the big box stores and return to more neighbourhood businesses. There are many more possibilities and I don't really think there is any need to list them: many critics of North American urban development have been writing of this for a generation or more.

[mirror]

10% of the US oil production is off line due to Katrina. If we have another incident we could easily see US$100. a barrel for oil and $2.00 a litre for gas at the pumps. I would say the odds are in favour of us soon seeing $2.00 a litre for gas.

[Cartman]

If we have another incident we could easily see US$100. a barrel for oil and $2.00 a litre for gas at the pumps. I would say the odds are in favour of us soon seeing $2.00 a litre for gas.

$2.00 litre sounds high but I recall the Calgary Herald warning that gas prices would be at current rates a long time ago. All it will take is one incident in Saudi Arabia and through the roof they will go. I hate the way a catastrophe on the other side of the globe raises our prices here when production is just fine here.

Kinda makes you wonder whether the Liberals should have sold Petro Canada.

[August1991]

I hate the way a catastrophe on the other side of the globe raises our prices here when production is just fine here.

Kinda makes you wonder whether the Liberals should have sold Petro Canada.

If the value of your services increases because of events elsewhere in the world, should you not be able to sell them at a higher price?

More important, Canada would be foolish to sell its gasoline internally at a low price when it could sell it abroad at a high price.

----

I think the world price of crude oil has been slightly affected by this hurricane. It is mostly the refining capacity that is smaller. For the continent, I believe, it is the equivalent of losing Canada's entire refining capacity.

[Cartman]

I want it all August. I think we should subsidize lower prices at home by raising them on others. I realize that this will never happen and that it is discriminatory. So given existing options, you are probably correct.

[mcqueen625]

RE::Where were your mighty Liberals with their promise to remove the GST?

Are you living in total denial that the Conservative's BROUGHT IN THE G.S.T.?

Did you forget about that little fact?

HELLO!!! They even appointed a bunch of new senators to make sure the bill passed through the senate quickly!

Some folks are really narrow minded!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you forgetting that is was corrupt Jean who likes to gives all of Canada's money to Quebec, who campaigned specifically on repealing the GST and once he fooled the stupid people from Ontario into putting him into power the first time, he made a complete about-face and admitted that he lied and had no intentions of removing the GST. In fact it was he who lobbied the Maritimes into harmonizing thier Provincial sales taxes with the GST to form the HST. Now we have Martin, another Liberal and he too refuses to repeal the GST. He refuses to remove it from the essentials like heating oil, gasoline and hydro bills, even though this regressive tax threatens the ability of most Canadians to survive this coming winter, including those on fixed income like seniors and people living solely on disability pensions like CPP, or QPP.

[mcqueen625]

Why is the federal government taking taxes off gasoline anyway?  Don't roads fall under provincial jursidiction?  If they eliminated the 10 cent excise tax plus the GST, gas would be significantly cheaper right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not likely, because in all likelihood BIG OIL would simply boost their prices to create more profits for themselves. Even so, this regressive tax should be removed from all essentials, because is a tax taxing taxes. Both the feds and the provincial governments impose surtaxes on petroleum products such as gasoline and heating oil on top of the price of the products, and the GST is applied on the total so in effect we are paying tax on a tax, and that is WRONG! Both the feds and the provinces applied these surtaxes for such things as deficit reduction in the case of the feds, we are no longer running a deficit yet this the surtax still remains, along with the additional GST.

[mcqueen625]

Hey, good idea.  Let's "snatch control of our economy" and drive even more people into poverty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are youn talking about the corporation are now paying less than 10% of the socail costs of running Canada when it used to a 50/50 split between corporations and people. The multinational corporation have become so strong through deals like FTA & NAFTA that even though they have had their responsibilty for paying a fair share lowered to basically nothing they have still packed up and moved their manufacturing operations to third world countries for one reason, to lower the standard of living of both Canadians and Americans to third world levels so they can also pay low wages for any distribution costs they have left in North America. I just read an article last night on the net about how Canada's standard of living has fallen drastically in the last few years and is expected to continue to fall for the forseeable future. That is not progress, that is a sign that the house-of-cards called capitalism is crumbling, and another depression is around the corner. I didn't live through the last one in the dirty thirties, but I remember my father telling me that if you had a job at all you were lucky, because many didn't. At least back them people could go back and work the land in such things as forestry, fishing, and farming. Today that is not an option since most forestry is being conducted with mechanical harvesters, which require amybe 1% of the manpower once used. working farms are pretty much controlled by multinational agri-firm's like McCains, Green Giant and gowing back to the family farm is no longer an option since in many cases that farm no longer exists. As for fishing, Canada has allowed the foreign fleet to overfish the stocks that in many cases there is no commercial fishery left for even those who still do that for a living.

God help us when another depression hits, because this country is certainly not prepared to deal with it, and peole right now go to bed hungery and are forced to rely on food banks and soup kitchens only because we still have some people who are able to subsidize that help. If a depression hit, people will be literally starving to death with nowhere to turn to for help.

[August1991]

I want it all August.    I think we should subsidize lower prices at home by raising them on others.  I realize that this will never happen and that it is discriminatory.  So given existing options, you are probably correct.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Discriminatory? It would also be dumb. (Sorry for being harsh but I'm reminded of the NEP.)

It would be the equivalent of using a Lamborghini for grocery shopping. If you have something of value, you shouldn't waste it. You should sell it at market value and then do good things with the proceeds. Every barrel of oil sold in Canada at less than the world price represents a loss in "profit". Better to sell it abroad (or in Canada) at the world price, make a profit and then return the profit to Canadians. If they want, they can use the money to pay for the high cost of gasoline. More likely, many will use it for something else, more important.

(BTW, I have just explained why Canadian electricity prices should rise significantly - and even how to do it politically.)

Cartman, the Canadian Left really must get up to speed. It must understand markets and yet defend its traditional policies to help ordinary people. The Linda McQuaigs and Naomi Kleins really, really miss the point.

[PocketRocket]

$1.14/liter????

From where I sit, that looks pretty good right now.

[Canuck E Stan]

I guess now we can ask why $2.20 a litre in Toronto.

People are panic buying everywhere in Canada.

Prices have reached $2.20 in Toronto

[August1991]

I saw it at 111.4 in Montreal but there was a line up. I've seen this elsewhere in the world but not Canada. Weird.

[theloniusfleabag]

Word around 'the patch' today is that they are estimating on $100/bbl . $1.50-2.00/L is not out of the question. Or, should I say, rumour has it...$2.50/L...

[Minimus Maximus]

August touched on a very important point in a previous post. Refining capacity.

The refining capacity is basically where it was 10 years ago. We have China and India to compete with for our share of the petroleum products, thats around 2 billion new consumers coming onto the market.

You have 10 potatoes and 1000 Irishmen with a million dollars each. Do you think that the potatoes will go for what we would view a fair market price? No offence to the Irish.

[kimmy]

I heard about the outrageous price boosts in other parts of the country today, and I was surprised when I went out tonight and saw no change at all of prices here in Edmonton. Prices are at 101.4/L which is right about what they were at before the price scares caused by Hurricane Katrina. So I'm curious to see what happens tomorrow.

I have a sense that the problem is simply panic.

People think to themselves "when that hurricane hits, prices are going to go way up, just like after Katrina."

They figure "well, we better fill up today because tomorrow, a tank full will cost us $5 or $10 more."

Gas station managers look at hundreds of cars lined up, and think to themselves "man, if this keeps up, our tank will be empty before the next shipment comes." (that is, if they're not thinking "ho man, look at these suckers. there's one born every minute...")

If it was really about refining capacity, then why did prices return to pre-Katrina levels just a couple of weeks after Katrina? I'm sure that the refineries in the New Orleans area were not back online so quickly.

I believe these ridiculous price hikes are the natural response to sudden high demand by panicked consumers who have dramatically overreacted. During Katrina, prices jumped because many consumers anticipated price hikes because of the after-effects of the storm. And now during Rita, the effect is that much more dramatic because many more consumers have come to the conclusion that hurricanes make prices go up. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And if consumers here in Edmonton watch the news tonight and think "oh, man. I'd better get gas first thing tomorrow, just in case prices go up like they did out east," then prices will go up just like they did out east.

-k

[SirSpanky]

Unrelated, but a little funny;

In Winnipeg, some funny man called into a few gas stations pretending to be from head office in Toronto. Told them to raise gas to $1.80 or so, which they did. This was on thursday night, right when everyone was panic buying like crazy. I went out to a university party down the cities main stretch, and every gas station was lined up. I also hear that the stations that were selling for $1.80 were lined up too (most still had the price at around a dollar). Mobs are scary when they think they're doing the right thing. They simply emptied the city of gas.

[kimmy]

Unrelated, but a little funny;

In Winnipeg, some funny man called into a few gas stations pretending to be from head office in Toronto. Told them to raise gas to $1.80 or so, which they did. This was on thursday night, right when everyone was panic buying like crazy. I went out to a university party down the cities main stretch, and every gas station was lined up. I also hear that the stations that were selling for $1.80 were lined up too (most still had the price at around a dollar). Mobs are scary when they think they're doing the right thing. They simply emptied the city of gas.

Winnipeg radio station practical joke causes anarchy and rioting in Toronto?

I guess this is not too surprising. Somehow, when chaos breaks out in this country, it usually traces back to Winnipeg in some way.

-k

[Canuck E Stan]

A good article in the Calgary Sun today about gas prices and Goodale's claim that reducing the taxes won't make a difference.

Fed's Claim Runs Dry

The average pump price during that eight-month period was 89.4 cents per litre. Taxes averaged out at 32.5 cents and the average price for a litre of gas excluding taxes was 56.9 cents.

In other words, taxes make up 36% of the cost of a litre of fuel on average -- but even more in some jurisdictions.

Americans, for instance, pay much less for their gasoline than Canadians. Are U.S. gas companies less "greedy" than Canadian ones, or is it just the difference in taxes?

When the U.S. gallon is converted to a litre and the differences in the currency rates are accounted for, the average pump price in five U.S. cities tracked by MJ Ervin & Associates is 71.9 cents per litre -- a whopping 17.5 cents per litre lower than what Canadians pay. So what fuels the big gulf?

It's the taxes -- almost exactly. U.S. consumers, on average, pay 15.1 cents in taxes per litre on their gas -- or 17.4 cents less than Canadians pay in taxes per litre of gas.

In other words, the tax-excluded price per litre of gas is almost exactly the same as the Canadian price -- 56.8 cents per litre to Canada's 56.9 cents per litre -- just one-one-hundredth of a cent difference!

See comparison charts at:

G A S O L I N E P R I C E M O N I T O R

When you look at the comparison of prices across Canada with the U.S. you see little difference in the ACTUAL price of gas(excluding taxes),the major and significant differences is in the taxes charged.

This accounts for the government's findings on collusion of gas companies never there.

The next committee that Goodale is starting will again find that there is no conspiracy by the gas companies.

The culprit is the Federal government(including provincial) itself.

Goodale is wrong,reducing the gas tax will make a difference.