Todd Cameron Smith escapes from Halfway house

[crazymf]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

What the hell is going on? A kid kills someone, get a couple years and then allowed to merely walk away from a halfway house? Our system sucks in Canada. In my opinion if a minor commits a capital gross offence and is guilty beyond doubt, recycle him. Death penalty, goodbye. I honestly can't see rehabilitating a teenager who has resorted to killing as an option. It's like a dog who has tasted blood, the option will always be there and you can never trust them again.

It'a like that Mandin kid who shot his whole family a few years back in Valleyview I think. He'll never be useful again. Bring back the death penalty.

[cybercoma]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

What the hell is going on? A kid kills someone, get a couple years and then allowed to merely walk away from a halfway house? Our system sucks in Canada. In my opinion if a minor commits a capital gross offence and is guilty beyond doubt, recycle him. Death penalty, goodbye. I honestly can't see rehabilitating a teenager who has resorted to killing as an option. It's like a dog who has tasted blood, the option will always be there and you can never trust them again.

It'a like that Mandin kid who shot his whole family a few years back in Valleyview I think. He'll never be useful again. Bring back the death penalty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good idea, we should treat children like animals. Perhaps we could tie them up in our backyards and spank them when they shit in their diapers too. And when we go on vacation, we could put them in specially designed kiddie kennels.

[crazymf]

THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID!!!!

Canada is a softie state when it comes to punishing people for crimes. Some kid who isn't finished developing his priorities in life commits a murder and realizes down deep that it's an option of solving disputes. Some shrink expert works him over for a few years and out he goes, all better!! I don't think so.

Why does Canada fail to protect it's citizens time after time against rejects like this?

[Shakeyhands]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

What the hell is going on? A kid kills someone, get a couple years and then allowed to merely walk away from a halfway house? Our system sucks in Canada. In my opinion if a minor commits a capital gross offence and is guilty beyond doubt, recycle him. Death penalty, goodbye. I honestly can't see rehabilitating a teenager who has resorted to killing as an option. It's like a dog who has tasted blood, the option will always be there and you can never trust them again.

It'a like that Mandin kid who shot his whole family a few years back in Valleyview I think. He'll never be useful again. Bring back the death penalty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While my initial reaction to your post was...well ... nervous laughter, I re read it and am inclined to an extent to agree with you. People are fallible and and the fact that this kid duped some well meaning corrections staff into letting him go to a halfway house is well, unfortunate, especially if he decides to go on some sort of rampage.

However, our corrections system is still based upon rehabilitation and reintorduction into society and not soley punishment. The problem with the Death Penalty is that it is so final... no second chances... ever.

How many stories do we hear of people later found innocent having been put to death? How low of an accidental death percentage of innocents is allowable? 1%? 2%?

Will we do need to stiffen up our Pimp Hands a bit in regards to the type of situation that you bring up, there has to be some limit to our anger and need for vengence.

[kimmy]

(whaaa? This thread has certainly taken a turn for the strange.)

I believe the "Taber shooter" and his victim were both high-school seniors. And as it was just days after the Columbine massacre, it was considered likely it was a copycat crime-- not only was the shooter aware of the kind of horror and grief his actions would cause, he was almost certainly *inspired* by it.

While I don't think the death penalty was necessary, it certainly seems to me that the justice system did not treat this particular crime with the seriousness that I'd have thought was warranted.

-k

[crazymf]

You know, I've heard this argument before and it doesn't wash with me. When someone commits a capital crime with rock solid proof of guilt, what's the issue?

Why is the pig farmer from BC still around? Rehab?

Clifford Olson, Harvy Andres, Paul Bernardo, all upstanding citizens that can be rehabbed and brought to some sort of productive lifestyle living next door to you.

I know there's murders that happen that don't warrant a death penalty. I know there's innocent people statistically put in jail.

Harvy Andres was shot 8 times by police in saskatoon in a shootout I think before being subdued. He's innocent and merely misunderstood of course and should be rehabilitated.

There is a use for the death penalty.

[Argus]

Good idea, we should treat children like animals.  Perhaps we could tie them up in our backyards and spank them when they shit in their diapers too.  And when we go on vacation, we could put them in specially designed kiddie kennels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You seem to be experiencing some difficulty accepting the difference between a baby who doesn't know what he's doing (and causes no great harm anyway) and a young man in senior high school who deliberately commits murder.

For my money, put the victim in the hole, toss the killer in with him, and bury them together.

[mirror]

You know, I've heard this argument before and it doesn't wash with me. When someone commits a capital crime with rock solid proof of guilt, what's the issue?

Why is the pig farmer from BC still around? Rehab?

Clifford Olson, Harvy Andres, Paul Bernardo, all upstanding citizens that can be rehabbed and brought to some sort of productive lifestyle living next door to you.

I know there's murders that happen that don't warrant a death penalty. I know there's innocent people statistically put in jail.

Harvy Andres was shot 8 times by police in saskatoon in a shootout I think before being subdued. He's innocent and merely misunderstood of course and should be rehabilitated.

There is a use for the death penalty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe if we didn't have this rush to convict on the part of the police we wouldn't have such a big problem. How would you like to be an innocent person in jail, let along hanged! A very good reason we don't have capital punishment is incompetent police work.

BTW

No 1 - the pig farmer so far is innnocent until proven guilty as he has not had his trail yet. That's the problem with your vigilante justice - you would send many innocent people to jail and even hang them. Thank goodness we have more intelligent people in charge of our justice system.

No 2 - he is locked up and has been for a couple of years now, so don't try to suggest otherwise.

[Hawk]

The number of repeat offences as a result of failed 'rehab' far outnumbers the number of innocent people killed... especially with today's methods for evidence gathering (and oh-so-useful DNA)

oh, and before you go crying 'it is unacceptable for even a single innocent to be killed' think about what you are saying, those people that murder have killed innocents. Innocents have died from failed rehabs as well, so your logic is flawed if you think doing away with the death sentance has helped reduce innocent death

[Leader Circle]

I wanna be a left winger for a minute and this is how they sound.

It's that damn preacher's kid pissing off a young Liberal. Those damn bible thumpers caused him to do it. If we took religion out of our schools and replaced it with some good old fashion man on man sodomy movies, this world would be a better place!

They moved the kid to Ontario, supposedly to be near his mother, but in truth it was because he was a lefty and didn't want to work and those Albertan's would have whooped his ass everyday for being a lazy, good for nothing bum(aka:union worker)

Sorry had to throw that in, because I find it relevant to what is going on in Canada today. Seriously, we are all victims of removing good morals from our kids! Instead of promoting religion and family values, we are creating kids that get what they want and have no discipline. You can't spank a kid anymore, because that's abuse. They do as they please and fear no authority, because that is what they learn in our schools. No longer are they being taught "do unto others as you'd have others do unto you", because that is a Bible quote and that is forbidden in our schools. The things they learn instead is politically correctness and don't offend others by steering them in the right direction, because you make hinder their human rights & freedoms. If kids were taught to respect authority figures and feared just a little bit, maybe they wouldn't be holy terrors.

Part of the problem with all of this is our school system in general, our teachers are not good leaders and they hate their jobs, they just want to move up the pay scale!!! Teachers used to get into teaching, because they liked kids and wanted to help, now they become teachers, because the union keeps the pay good and you have your summers off!! Why should they give a shit how a kid turns out? It's not their kid!

Teachers used to be smart when I grew up, now, some of the dumbest kids that I went to school with, became teachers. Scary! I know one in particular, she could barely get by in school, but got accepted into teacher's college and was able to squeak her way through. Now she is full time teaching at the my old high school. There is no standard anymore, because it would be offensive to turn someone down if their grades were too low!! It would be infringing on her human rights!!

It is a scary sign of the times! Maybe homeschooling is the better option! Sorry to rant off topic, but I think it plays a factor in what this kid did!

[crazymf]

Ok, the pig farmer is innocent. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

Marten Gingras was deemed safe enough for a day trip to West Edmonton Mall when he escaped and immediately killed someone else too.

All you liberal people please hand over your addresses to the corrections office so they can set up halfway houses and parolle stations in your neighborhood. You obviously feel no danger from these people. Maybe you can hold their hands while they're waiting for the bus to go to work too.

Karla needs somewhere to live. Perhaps you have a basement suite you can rent her.

Ok, I'm being beligerant a bit, but give your head a shake. Some of these killers are unredeemable and will never have anything productive to give society. These are the death penalty cases.

[shoop]

I think it is cruel and unusual punishment that corrections authorities force Cameron to wear those terribly unfashionable glasses.

[liz_bca]

(whaaa?  This thread has certainly taken a turn for the strange.)

I believe the "Taber shooter" and his victim were both high-school seniors.  And as it was just days after the Columbine massacre, it was considered likely it was a copycat crime-- not only was the shooter aware of the kind of horror and grief his actions would cause, he was almost certainly *inspired* by it.

While I don't think the death penalty was necessary, it certainly seems to me that the justice system did not treat this particular crime with the seriousness that I'd have thought was warranted.

-k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, kimmy, neither the shooter nor his victims were high school seniors at the time of the shooting. Todd Smith was 14 years old. He was not a drop out either, as I actually read in a news article. He was homeschooling because he was bullied at school. Severely. I'm not standing up for him, and in a minute you'll understand why, but he was tortured by his classmates. I don't even want to go into the details of what I've heard because no one deserves that kind of humiliation. He attended the junior high school conected to the high school. And neither Jason Lang nor Shane Christmas (his victims) were seniors. They were in grade 11, as was I at the time. Shane was actually heading to the same class I was when Todd tried to kill us all (hence the reason why I won't defend him).

And contrary to what some people believe, he did not want to kill only those who persecuted him. There were about 350 bullets found in the pockets of his trenchcoat. He wanted to kill everyone. Including me. He fired at the four people who were in the immediate vicinity when he stepped into the hall from outside. He did not hesitate to look at who he was shooting.

Psychiatrists have dubbed him a sociapath, meaning he is not capable of feeling empathy for others. He was up for parole a couple of years ago, but psychiatrists insisted he still had fantasies about walking into a crowded mall and shooting the place up. So he stayed in jail. Then, earlier this year, despite the same concerns from psychiatrists, the judge decided to release him to the halfway house. I guess he figured "let's let him out and see what happens" or something.

I agree with those who don't believe this boy can be rehabilitated, because he has a mental illness, preventing him from feeling empathy for others. This is not a curable illness. As a sociopath, you can't suddenly start caring for others. I don't know what the right solution is, but then I don't get paid to figure that out either, thank God. I only know that he doesn't belong on the streets because he is still a menace to the public, and I also know that killing him for a crime he committed as an adolescent is not the answer either.

Liz

[mirror]

Liz

Welcome to MLW.

Well thought out post.

Thanks for sharing your personal experience and perceptions about this situation.

I once heard Jason's Dad, who I believe is an Anglican priest, speak about forgiveness. I was very favourably impressed with his approach. I think he has been a shining light for our Canadian society.

[liz_bca]

Thank you. I've actually had the opportunity to get to know Dale Lang and his wife, Diane, a little bit, and they are admirable people. They were a large part of the reason that I was able to forgive Todd, because they immediately and publicly forgave him, even as they were grieving for their son. I'm a little insulted by people that want to condemn others to death when they don't even know exactly what happened. The way I began viewing the situation after Jason's parents publicly forgave their son's killer, was that if his own parents can forgive, then surely I should be able to. Dale and Diane Lang have now opened a drop-in shelter in Taber in Jason's name. Again, thank you for your understanding. I wish others were as slow to judge.

Liz

[mirror]

You have had to deal with quite a tramatic situation at a young age.

My grandmother use to tell me that it is how you act in the bad times that build your character. You sound like a very healthy young person. Good on you.

[Argus]

Thank you. I've actually had the opportunity to get to know Dale Lang and his wife, Diane, a little bit, and they are admirable people. They were a large part of the reason that I was able to forgive Todd, because they immediately and publicly forgave him, even as they were grieving for their son.  I'm a little insulted by people that want to condemn others to death when they don't even know exactly what happened.

Why? You say you believe he is a violent sociopath who cannot be rehabilitated.

What more need we understand? He is a murdering sociopath who will be a continuing danger to society as long as he lives. Why does it insult you to have someone condemn him to death?

The way I began viewing the situation after Jason's parents publicly forgave their son's killer, was that if his own parents can forgive, then surely I should be able to. Dale and Diane Lang have now opened a drop-in shelter in Taber in Jason's name.  Again, thank you for your understanding. I wish others were as slow to judge.

I dunno. For someone who says she believes this man is a violent sociopath who can't be rehabilitated this seems a rather odd refrain. This is not, furthermore, a matter of "forgiveness". It is a matter of practicality and public safety. We need to either clear out the mess in our prison and parole systems so that people like Tabor don't get released a few years after their commitment to prison or dust off the hangman and his noose.

[liz_bca]

You know, Argus, you seem to have missed the entire point. That tends to happen when people are judgemental and are not well enough informed of the situation. The reason I may seem a little sympathetic is because I was also bullied in school. To the point that I nearly killed myself. I understand what drove Todd to retaliate. Based on the psychiatrists conclusions, I don't think he can be rehabilitated, but he still doesn't deserve to be killed for a crime he committed in his adolescence.

Don't tell me you never made any mistakes when you were 14. This boy needs continuing help and supervision. And by the way, saying that I forgive this boy does not mean I think his actions were justified. It means that I will not be burdened by something that I cannot change.

While I agree that the justice system needs improvement, I will never agree with the vigilante justice that it seems you are trying to promote. And furthermore, "understanding" plays a large part in cases like this. If we don't understand why it happened, how can we prevent it from happening again? What if someone you loved was being bullied at school? Or what if you were being bullied for that matter, and helpless to stop it? What if it had been you who had your classmates beat you up, throw gasoline on you and threaten to light you on fire? Perhaps you should educate yourself to the situation a little bit before you jump in with ignorant comments.

From the two of us, I think I have more right to hate this boy than you do. You know, what with him trying to kill me and all. And yet I don't. Hmmm. Thankfully God doesn't judge the way you do, or we'd all be dead. In the meantime, try moving to Texas. You may find it more to your liking.

[Argus]

You know, Argus, you seem to have missed the entire point. That tends to happen when people are judgemental

Yes. I tend to be judgemental of murderers.

and are not well enough informed of the situation.

If I am in error regarding the facts I welcome correction.

The reason I may seem a little sympathetic is because I was also bullied in school. To the point that I nearly killed myself. I understand what drove Todd to retaliate.

I was bullied in school as well. And forgive me, but while I could "understand" him retaliating against those who tormented him I fail to understand why he would shoot anyone in sight.

Based on the psychiatrists conclusions, I don't think he can be rehabilitated, but he still doesn't deserve to be killed for a crime he committed in his adolescence.

What about for the crime he'll commit next year?

Don't tell me you never made any mistakes when you were 14. 

I can honestly say I never killed anyone, nor attempted to.

This boy needs continuing help and supervision.

If, as you say, he is a sociopath with no hope of reform than help would be a waste of time. What he needs is permanent imprisonment.

While I agree that the justice system needs improvement, I will never agree with the vigilante justice that it seems you are trying to promote.

Did I mention vigilante justice? I said that the prison system needs to be reformed to keep people like this locked away, or else, if that fails, we need to consider bringing back the hangman. Nothing about that implied vigilante justice - although justice is still justice, regardless of who brings it about.

And furthermore, "understanding" plays a large part in cases like this. If we don't understand why it happened, how can we prevent it from happening again? What if someone you loved was being bullied at school? Or what if you were being bullied for that matter, and helpless to stop it?

Bullying did not lead this putz to go out and shoot people. Bullies have existed from the beginning of time. Bullies are a part of school, a part of life. Almost all of us were bullied at one point or another, some of us mercilessly. Only a miniscule proportion blow up into violence - esp violence against those who were not bullies.

What if it had been you who had your classmates beat you up, throw gasoline on you and threaten to light you on fire? Perhaps you should educate yourself to the situation a little bit before you jump in with ignorant comments.

You have failed to demonstrate that my comments were ignorant. You know nothing about me or my life experiences. You are sounding a bit shrill here, apparently because someone isn't completely agreeing with you.

From the two of us, I think I have more right to hate this boy than you do.

I don't hate this man. I regard him as a threat to society, and you apparently agree. You are venting emotionally for no reason I can see, in defence of someone you yourself have described as a dangerous sociopath who can never be cured.

Yes, I admit to being "judgemental" about incurable sociopathic murderers.

But the base word of "judgemental" is "judgement".

Perhaps, as you mature, you'll gain a better grasp on the concept.

[crazymf]

You know, Argus, you seem to have missed the entire point. That tends to happen when people are judgemental and are not well enough informed of the situation. The reason I may seem a little sympathetic is because I was also bullied in school. To the point that I nearly killed myself. I understand what drove Todd to retaliate. Based on the psychiatrists conclusions, I don't think he can be rehabilitated, but he still doesn't deserve to be killed for a crime he committed in his adolescence.

Don't tell me you never made any mistakes when you were 14.  This boy needs continuing help and supervision. And by the way, saying that I forgive this boy does not mean I think his actions were justified. It means that I will not be burdened by something that I cannot change.

While I agree that the justice system needs improvement, I will never agree with the vigilante justice that it seems you are trying to promote. And furthermore, "understanding" plays a large part in cases like this. If we don't understand why it happened, how can we prevent it from happening again? What if someone you loved was being bullied at school? Or what if you were being bullied for that matter, and helpless to stop it? What if it had been you who had your classmates beat you up, throw gasoline on you and threaten to light you on fire? Perhaps you should educate yourself to the situation a little bit before you jump in with ignorant comments.

From the two of us, I think I have more right to hate this boy than you do. You know, what with him trying to kill me and all. And yet I don't. Hmmm. Thankfully God doesn't judge the way you do, or we'd all be dead. In the meantime, try moving to Texas. You may find in more to your liking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right. We all grew up and went through junior high school and dealt with bullies. Most of us don't get a gun and shoot people over it. I have no idea what puts that idea on the todo list of some young whacko like Cameron.

Like I said before, give the justice department your address and let them know you've got a basement suite in your house for him when he's all rehabilitated.

As far as educating myself, the kid brought a gun and tried to kill everybody. Did I miss something?

Don't spout religion to people these days without giving old Allah a chance too, like in Iran, where they hang people for merely being queer these days. And what about the eye for an eye clause?

What exactly was vigilante about my calling for the death penalty in cases like this one? There is a use for it and this case is a prime example.

By the way, you're not the only one who's looked the wrong way down a gun barrel.

[mirror]

Liz

There are some people here who you will never convince. You have just heard from a couple of them. Fortunately there are more enlightened people working in our justice system that try and find the right balance in how to deal with situations such as this. And they make mistakes as well.

I once heard a judge, Waly Oppal, who is now a BC cabinet minister, talking about sentencing people for crimes. There is pressure from all sides, from the vigilante justice people who want revenge, from the penal system which is buckling at the seams, and from the people that are working to rehabilitate offenders. Canada I was surprised to learn incarcerates more people per capita than most other industralized nations.

I agree with you that trying to understand and root out the causes of crime are essential. There are a lot of factors at work including home situation, peer pressure, TV violence and its celebration of crime culture, and the media which love to sensationalize the news to sell their ads. I have heard that News departments actually seach out the worst possible news on purpose, so that people when they see the ads, are so comforted by them they go out and purchase those products. That is one of the major reasons I prefer the CBC to corporate media.

[liz_bca]

Ok, before everyone sics his dog on me for not believing in the death penalty:

While I personally, along with most of you, don't believe Todd Smith can be rehabilitated, that doesn't mean that he can't be. We could all be wrong. All I'm saying, is everyone deserves a chance to change and to prove that, and if they don't show signs of improvement, then leave them behind bars! And saying that we should "dust off the hangman and his noose" does sound a little primitive.

And by the way, this guy had so many people bullying him in the junior high school, that he thought everyone was out to get him. Because that's what happens when so many people bully you and no one who sees it stands up for you. You don't think about those who don't know about it and would be willing to stand up for you. Anyone who has been in that bad of a situation will know what I'm talking about. That's why Todd Smith wanted to kill everyone.

And Argus, I guarantee you don't know all the facts. Besides the police who didn't give out all the facts, there were only a handful of us there who know them and none of us were willing to speak to the media. Therefore, I know you don't know all the facts.

This is the last message I am posting because you are all trying to force me into a position to defend this guy, and I won't. Just because I can empathize with both sides of the situation doesn't make me hypocritical, because not everything is as black and white as you might want it to be. I don't want him on the loose any more than you do, until or unless he can prove that he wants to be contributing member of society again, and that he is no longer a threat. As I've said, I personally don't believe it can be done, but I'm not a psychic and neither are you, I'm sure.

[Argus]

Liz

There are some people here who you will never convince.

Well, there are some people in the world who respond favourably to emotional bluster and nonsense. I'm just not one of them.

Fortunately there are more enlightened people working in our justice system that try and find the right balance in how to deal with situations such as this. And they make mistakes as well. 

Enlightenment requires knowledge - a generally foreign concept to some. The prison system is full of bureacrats with more interest in rotating the beans under their watch than safeguarding them, more interest in limiting expenses by releasing prisoners than protecting the public by keeping them locked up. I see no evidence that those involved in our justice system qualify as "enlightened". The system doesn't work on any measurable scale of logic. It convicts the guilty and frees the innocent. It fails to adequately punish or deter, and rewards poor behaviour. And this after decades of being under the control of the "enlightened".

I agree with you that trying to understand and root out the causes of crime are essential. There are a lot of factors at work including home situation, peer pressure, TV violence and its celebration of crime culture, and the media which love to sensationalize the news to sell their ads.

These are all excuses. There is only one real cause for this kind of violence, and that is that some people are simply born bad. They are rejects on the scales of life, defective productions of the genetic factory. A million people can play a video game and have fun, but there's always that one emotional cripple who goes out and shoots people and blames it on the game. Ten million people will be bullied, but there's always one or two who'll go wacko and start shooting up the school. There is no point in trying to understand TV violence, peer pressure or home situations because none of them lead to violence in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases.

A hundred million people saw the movie Taxi Driver. Only one was inspired to go and murder a president. Was it the movie's fault? Or was there just something defective about this particular person?

As long as we as a society make clear to people at an early age that violence against others is unacceptable then the responsibility for their commision of violence lies entirely with them. And punishment should be as severe as is required both for justice and to drum that message of unacceptable behaviour into the heads of the rest of their peers.

[Argus]

Ok, before everyone sics his dog on me for not believing in the death penalty:

You are jumping to conclusions. I did not say I believed in the death penalty. I believe that in some cases it would be just, and justice is what I believe in. However, the poor state of the Canadian justice system leads me to conclude that rendering an unalterable punishment is probably not a good idea at this time.

While I personally, along with most of you, don't believe Todd Smith can be rehabilitated, that doesn't mean that he can't be. We could all be wrong. All I'm saying, is everyone deserves a chance to change and to prove that, and if they don't show signs of improvement, then leave them behind bars!

Then we agree. My problem is that people like this are NOT kept behind bars until all concerned are agreed that he - or she - poses no further danger to society.

And saying that we should "dust off the hangman and his noose" does sound a little primitive.

Perhaps, but we are dealing with primitive people.

And by the way, this guy had so many people bullying him in the junior high school, that he thought everyone was out to get him. Because that's what happens when so many people bully you and no one who sees it stands up for you. You don't think about those who don't know about it and would be willing to stand up for you. Anyone who has been in that bad of a situation will know what I'm talking about. That's why Todd Smith wanted to kill everyone.

Sorry, but in junior high I was a skinny, nerdy kid with glasses. Don't talk to me about bullying, okay? I've seen it. And at no time did I ever want to kill everyone. At no time did I ever consider blaming anyone other than those personally involved. At no time did I ever seek, or even desire revenge against anyone not personally involved. That he did makes him, well, insane. You yourself describe him as an incurable sociopath. You aren't turned into a sociopath by bullying. He was that way to begin with. Perhaps that's what other kids picked up on.

And Argus, I guarantee you don't know all the facts. Besides the police who didn't give out all the facts, there were only a handful of us there who know them and none of us were willing to speak to the media. Therefore, I know you don't know all the facts.

I'm sure there are details involved of which I'm unaware. What I'm saying is that does not preclude judgement based on the facts that are known. Put another way, I fail to see how any information can affect what you have stated as fact - ie, that he's a diagnosed sociopath (sociopaths are rarely treatable) who cannot be cured. That is the core of the discussion. A violently inclined sociopath who cannot be treated is not someone who should be walking around loose. What he was subjected to, at school or at home, or the root causes, are at best peripheral.

This is the last message I am posting because you are all trying to force me into a position to defend this guy, and I won't.

I'm sorry you see it that way. I never saw your postings as a defence of him. I saw them as indicative of a certain bleeding heart liberal mindset in terms of crime and criminal behaviour. I come from an age where personal responsibility was the tradition. I certainly understand how environment and experiences can turn one into a criminal. And there's nothing wrong with understanding this and doing our best to deal with them. But what made a person a criminal is relatively unimportant in the discussion of what to do with the criminal. Because what we're ultimately seeking is the protection of society. And no matter what mischances or bad luck a person experienced they are now - what they now are. And that's what we have to deal with.

[Guest eureka]

Experiences and environment most certainly contribute to criminality. It is only in recent times that there has been any such thing as a "safe" city. In earlier days when piverty and disenfranchisement were the norm, crime, including homicide, was far higher than today. Too, there is a strong correlation between severity of punishment and rates of incarceration, and crime; again including homicide.

The death penalty has been ineffective in deterring murderers as has the risk of shooting by criminals. The US is sufficient evidence of that. In Britain, most criminals do not carry guns because they are not subject to being shot by trigger happy cops if surprised. Apprehension is better than death.

Some 25 or so years ago, an American Law School studied every case in the USA where the death penalty had been carried out in the twentieth century. The conclusion was that there had been over 400 innocent men executed in the first 50 years of the century. That number was only of the provably innocent from the records. The inference is that the number could be much higher.

There is also the fact that those sentenced to death are overwhelmingly the poor and the non-white. That leads either to the conclusion that environment or experience plays a very large role in criminal activity, or that the system is geared to justice only for the privileged.. Or both.