They're at it again

[Black Dog]

When a govt disarms its population - be aware.  One of the first things Hitler did was disarm the German citizenry.

Leaving aside any arguments for or against gun control, the popular notion that Hitler disarmed the German people is a myth.

Gun control, the Law on Firearms and Ammunition, was introduced to Germany in 1928 under the Weimar regime (there was no Right to Arms in the Constitution of 1919) in large part to disarm the nascent private armies, e.g. the Nazi SA (aka "the brownshirts"). The Weimar government was attempting to bring some stability to German society and politics (a classic "law and order" position). Violent extremist movements (of both the Left and Right) were actively attacking the young, and very fragile, democratic state. A government that cannot maintain some degree of public order cannot sustain its legitimacy. Nor was the German citizenry well grounded in Constitutional, republican government (as was evidenced in their choices at the ballot box). Gun control was not initiated at the behest or on behalf of the Nazis - it was in fact designed to keep them, or others of the same ilk, from executing a revolution against the lawful government. In the strictest sense, the law succeeded - the Nazis did not stage an armed coup.

The 1928 law was subsequently extended in 1938 under the Third Reich (this action being the principal point in support of the contention that the Nazis were advocates of gun control). However, the Nazis were firmly in control of Germany at the time the Weapons Law of 1938 was created. Further, this law was not passed by a legislative body, but was promulgated under the dictatorial power granted Hitler in 1933. Obviously, the Nazis did not need gun control to attain power as they already (in 1938) possessed supreme and unlimited power in Germany. The only feasible argument that gun control favored the Nazis would be that the 1928 law deprived private armies of a means to defeat them. The basic flaw with this argument is that the Nazis did not seize power by force of arms, but through their success at the ballot box (and the political cunning of Hitler himself). Secondary considerations that arise are that gun ownership was not that widespread to begin with, and, even imagining such ubiquity the German people, Jews in particular, were not predisposed to violent resistance to their government.

...

The simple conclusion is that there are no lessons about the efficacy of gun control to be learned from the Germany of the first half of this century. It is all too easy to forget the seductive allure that fascism presented to all the West, bogged down in economic and social morass. What must be remembered is that the Nazis were master manipulators of popular emotion and sentiment, and were disdainful of people thinking for themselves. There is the danger to which we should pay great heed. Not fanciful stories about Nazi's seizing guns,

[Guest eureka]

You should read what I wrote, Monty. It explains the "increase" in violent crime. We were also talking of gun related deaths.

In those, I recall giving the comparisons with the US for a particular year. There were 30 in the UK and over 10,000 in the US.

To be a good teacher, you need to be a good reader and a little more receptive to what you read.

[Shakeyhands]

Dumb is in the mind of the beholder. Put me down for an international gun ban.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mirror is no longer on the forum, so I will direct my comments to you. I would not like guns banned because I know that the bad guys would not turn in their guns. I have grandparents that live on an isolated farm and I am glad that Grandpa has guns for protection.

Don't you remember what happened when the UK banned handguns? Their robbery and break-in rate went up 60% because (surprise!) the bad guys never turned in their guns. Now their citizens are disarmed and are at the mercy of the bad guys who are not so leery of breaking into homes - unlike the US where the bad guys are leery of breaking into homes for fear of not knowing what the homeowner has for protection. Indeed many of their shooting incidents come from people protecting their home.

When a govt disarms its population - be aware. One of the first things Hitler did was disarm the German citizenry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Besides really twisting some facts to support your argument, you are wrong on the Hitler statement. My guess is, based on the sorts that trot that one out, is that it is some sort of NRA bunk, along with how safe Switzerland is because they have to own guns there. Pure bunk.

I'll tell you what, if none of us had guns, why would you need to protect your self again? I've never felt unsafe anywhere in Canada. Can't say I can say the smae thing about the US. Too many idiots there with weapons and the wrong attitudes.

[Montgomery Burns]

Dumb is in the mind of the beholder. Put me down for an international gun ban.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mirror is no longer on the forum, so I will direct my comments to you. I would not like guns banned because I know that the bad guys would not turn in their guns. I have grandparents that live on an isolated farm and I am glad that Grandpa has guns for protection.

Don't you remember what happened when the UK banned handguns? Their robbery and break-in rate went up 60% because (surprise!) the bad guys never turned in their guns. Now their citizens are disarmed and are at the mercy of the bad guys who are not so leery of breaking into homes - unlike the US where the bad guys are leery of breaking into homes for fear of not knowing what the homeowner has for protection. Indeed many of their shooting incidents come from people protecting their home.

When a govt disarms its population - be aware. One of the first things Hitler did was disarm the German citizenry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Besides really twisting some facts to support your argument, you are wrong on the Hitler statement. My guess is, based on the sorts that trot that one out, is that it is some sort of NRA bunk, along with how safe Switzerland is because they have to own guns there. Pure bunk.

I'll tell you what, if none of us had guns, why would you need to protect your self again? I've never felt unsafe anywhere in Canada. Can't say I can say the smae thing about the US. Too many idiots there with weapons and the wrong attitudes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shakey, Hitler disarmed the German citizenry. And I got my UK stats from Britain's Home Office, as can be seen by the link I provided. And it wasn't just the difficulty of Hitler's panzers navigating through the Swiss Alps that made Hitler leery of annexing Switzerland; he knew that their population was armed.

Btw, Switzerland is a low crime rate, low murder country.

Your utopia theory of no one having guns and no one needing them is not realistic. The bad guys will not turn in their guns. Period. Look at what happened to the UK when they disarmed their citizens.

And your claim that you have never felt unsafe anywhere in Canada? I dare you to walk through "the hood" at nighttime in my mid-sized Canadian city with a 12 pack of beer. One of my employees foolishly did that (he was drunk), and was beaten to a bloody pulp, and missed 3 weeks of work. No one realistaically walks through the hood in my city - the city with the highest robbery rate (per capita) in Canada and the US.

So don't give me any of that Michael Moore "Canada is so safe they don't lock their doors" BS.

[Guest eureka]

I have corrected your assumptions about the UK and guns so, unless you are a complete idiot, stop repeating them.

[Montgomery Burns]

You haven't "corrected" anything. I provided figures from Britain's Home Office; you have provided nothing.

Quit embarrassing yourself.

[Guest eureka]

I explained that non-existent increase to you, Monty. You will lose all credibility - I will search to see whether you had any to lose, though - if you cannot accept an unarguable fact because it does not fit your violent side.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Montgomery Burns,

And it wasn't just the difficulty of Hitler's panzers navigating through the Swiss Alps that made Hitler leery of annexing Switzerland; he knew that their population was armed.

No, the Swiss said they would blow up the mountain tunnels if Germany invaded, making invasion extremely difficult and time-consuming. In the end, it served all sides to have Switzerland neutral, the Germans because the could hide much of their plunder there, and the allies because they ran spy operations and escape conduits through there.

You haven't "corrected" anything. I provided figures from Britain's Home Office

eureka has explained the discrepancy of the cause of the rapid rise in the numbers, quite adequately. It was not due to an actual 'gigantic leap in break-ins due to the gun laws', but a re-configuration in the paperwork.

[masterkush]

How do Canadians buy guns in a foreign country

thats my question

you think you can get a handle on that wilkens old boy

[mcqueen625]

This issue does make a nice quid pro quo argument to bring up when the Americans complain about our drug laws though. How can they complain about Canada legalizing pot (which they fear will lead to an increase in smuggling into the States) when they in turn threaten our culture of restrictive gun laws with their relatively liberal gun culture?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What a crock! As in Canada, the same applies in the United States, it is not law abiding citizens that are carrying guns and using then, it it the criminal element. Restrictive guns laws on this side of the border has done absolutely nothing tho take guns out of the hands of our criminals and it never will, simply because these people don't apply for carry permits here of south of the border. The fact is that illegal guns on both sides of the border are bought the same place I could buy one if I was so inclined, on the streets from the same types of people who are peddling crack and other drugs. I spent a number of years working as a Youth Worker with Young Offenders and I know that if I wanted to buy a hand gun I could talk to numerous former client's who have graduated to the adult criminal lifestyle. By the way, let's not forget that in Canada 'Hand-gun restrictive" legislation was brought in way back in 1934, and to date I have read estimates that approximately only 20% of hand-guns were ever registered. Most crime in Canada involving firearms, it was hand-guns that were involved, not rifles and shotguns, the very target's of the infamous "Gun Registry" that has cost us approximately $2 Billion and counting, and has not prevented one criminal act perpetrated by a criminal using one of these targeted weapons. Every time I read where a robbery has taken place using a weapon, it is never a rifle or shotgun, because they are not very easily hidden, whereas a hand-gun fits right into a pocket.

Canada's infamous "Gun Registry" was nothing but a tax grab by Chretien's Liberals, and for Martin to continue with this program it just continues to convince me that fighting crime is not a high priority for this government. THey would rather pass legislation legalizing drug use, because enforcing laws costs money. Judging by some of the sentences handed out by our Liberal appointed judges for some very serious crimes it convinces me that our government would like to close even more prisons and put more criminals onto the streets.

[mcqueen625]

How do Canadians buy guns in a foreign country

thats my question

you think you can get a handle on that wilkens old  boy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My take, although you didn't ask that question of me, is that you don't need to buy guns in a foreign country because they are readily available right her in Canada on our street corners. Many of these weapons have been here for some time, unregistered, and classed as "restricted weapons." Committing a crime with a "Restricted weapon" is supposed to add time to a jail sentence, but since many judges tend to call House arrest as incarceration, I don't know how that is sending any kind of message to the criminal element other than "keep up what you are doing, and maybe someday, we'll really get tough on you and put you behind bars for a month." Sorry, how stupid of me I forgot about remission time for good behaviour, how about 1/6th of that month. No wonder our criminals who committ crimes south of the border request immediate transfers back to a Canadian jail where they may just end up being released onto all of us. What a great system we have here in Canada.

[err]

Dumb is in the mind of the beholder. Put me down for an international gun ban.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mirror is no longer on the forum, so I will direct my comments to you.

Too bad....

I would not like guns banned because I know that the bad guys would not turn in their guns.  I have grandparents that live on an isolated farm and I am glad that Grandpa has guns for protection. 

I remember an excellent picture on the cover of one of the Toronto newspapers... It was of this dead "gun store owner" lying on the sidewalk on front of his big sign that said "Guns don't kill people... People do". It makes sense to me that people with guns shoot people a lot more than do people who don't have guns.

Bad people can steal guns from the "good people" who own guns, so having lots of guns for good people makes it easier for bad people to get them....

[Montgomery Burns]

Err, I am happy that my elderly grandparents (who live on a farm 7 miles to the nearest city) have guns. You seem to have this naive utopian view that if all guns were banned, then everybody can hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Get real: The bad guys will always have access to guns. Look what happened in the UK after they banned handguns--a 92% increase in the robbery rate after only 4 years.

I live in the robbery capital of Canada and the USA. You always hear about robberies or attempted robberies from acquaintances here. Saskatoon has a higher robbery rate than all the major Canadian and US cities. Our robbery rate is about 4 times higher than the typical US city the same size (200,000 - 250,000).

Less restrictive gun use in Canada would make the bad guys leery.

[Toro]

I live in Tallahasssee and have lived in Saskatoon. The two cities are of similar size, both with sizeable student populations. The murder rate is half here what it is in Saskatoon.

[err]

Look what happened in the UK after they banned handguns--a 92% increase in the robbery rate after only 4 years....

Your're not painting a complete picture. Don't you think it is possible that there might be some other factors surrounding the robbery rate... like the fact that its unemployment was at an all-time high in 1996....

I live in the robbery capital of Canada and the USA.  You always hear about robberies or attempted robberies from acquaintances here.  Saskatoon has a higher robbery rate than all the major Canadian and US cities.  Our robbery rate is about 4 times higher than the typical US city the same size (200,000 - 250,000).

And how about unemployment or other factors. You have to beware of over-simplifying something that is potentially complex....

Less restrictive gun use in Canada would make the bad guys leery.

Less restrictive gun laws would increase the number of guns in circulation, and hence make it even easier for "bad guys" to get access to them....

[newbie]

deleted

[Montgomery Burns]

Look what happened in the UK after they banned handguns--a 92% increase in the robbery rate after only 4 years....

Your're not painting a complete picture. Don't you think it is possible that there might be some other factors surrounding the robbery rate... like the fact that its unemployment was at an all-time high in 1996....

I live in the robbery capital of Canada and the USA.  You always hear about robberies or attempted robberies from acquaintances here.  Saskatoon has a higher robbery rate than all the major Canadian and US cities.  Our robbery rate is about 4 times higher than the typical US city the same size (200,000 - 250,000).

And how about unemployment or other factors. You have to beware of over-simplifying something that is potentially complex....

Less restrictive gun use in Canada would make the bad guys leery.

Less restrictive gun laws would increase the number of guns in circulation, and hence make it even easier for "bad guys" to get access to them....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1) No other factors in a mere 4 years. A 92% increase in the robbery rate is proof enough for me.

2) Actually, Saskatoon--with the exception of Alberta--is doing very well. Our unemployment rate is around 5 to 5.2%--about one-third below the national average.

3) As long as the "good guys" have protection--I'm f-i-n-e with that.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Montgomery Burns,

1) No other factors in a mere 4 years. A 92% increase in the robbery rate is proof enough for me.

You seem to be forgetting (or avoiding) the qualification of that number provided by eureka. The number jumped drastically because the British police began listing all offences associated with one event as seperate crimes. If someone broke into a house, and commited theft, etc, these used to be reported as 'one incident', while now they list every offence, and one 'incident' can contain 2-10 'crimes', skewing the previous numbers.

from... http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050721/d050721a.htm

Robberies with a firearm continue to decline

The rate of robbery incidents fell 4% in 2004. Police reported more than 27,000 robberies, half of which were committed without a weapon of any kind. The rate of robberies committed with a firearm continued to decline, down 3% in 2004, accounting for one in seven robberies. The remaining 35% of robberies were committed with other weapons such as knives

I live in the robbery capital of Canada and the USA. You always hear about robberies or attempted robberies from acquaintances here. Saskatoon has a higher robbery rate than all the major Canadian and US cities. Our robbery rate is about 4 times higher than the typical US city the same size (200,000 - 250,000).

I grew up in Saskatoon, and can tell you it is a great city. However, I can also tell you that the population of 'poor, First Nations peoples' is also higher there, and the incarceration rate of the 'natives' is higher there than anywhere in the country.

Mind you, Saskatoon's roberry rate has no correlation with having or not having guns. The laws are the same for every city in Canada.

[Guest eureka]

Thanks for that, Thelonius. I was not going to bother with it and simply ignore M.B. He has no desire to learn anything from discussion; he is here purely to spread his mischievous prejudices wherever he can find an audience.

[Montgomery Burns]

That is why you are not up to it. You seem to think that Constitutional Law is Left or Right and that only demented "Rightists" have the "right" conclusions.

Humour is a good thing, generally, but sometimes one can laugh too hard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The facts are the facts, and the fact is you're outa ammo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Has he ever had any ammo...besides those troll weapons he fires on this board on a near daily basis?