Western Separation

[Guest eureka]

Real growh rates in Spain, Belgium, Ireland & Portugal were hugher in the period from 1975 to 2000 than in the US: Britain and Finland were the same (2% annually). All had lower growth from 1980 to -2000 than from 1960-1980. Canada did lag in the former at about 1,5% heavily influenced by Mulroney.

I think that would be an indictment of monetarism and give the lie to the belief that Thatcher did any good at all.

I will leave this alone now to "stay on topic": as if we ever do!

[Guest eureka]

One more though, MM. I did not suggest that was the greatest generatio: just a lot better than the Me generation.

I would go back about three tousand years for the "Greatest generation."

[Toro]

Real growh rates in Spain, Belgium, Ireland & Portugal were hugher in the period from 1975 to 2000 than in the US: Britain and Finland were the same (2% annually). All had lower growth from 1980 to -2000 than from 1960-1980. Canada did lag in the former at about 1,5% heavily influenced by Mulroney.

I think that would be an indictment of monetarism and give the lie to the belief that Thatcher did any good at all.

I will leave this alone now to "stay on topic": as if we ever do!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course Spain, Ireland and Portugal had higher growth rates! They came from a lower base and integration into the EU opened up vast new markets. All three of these countries were large net recipients of EU transfer funds. C'mon, man! Context!

[Leader Circle]

Alberta, so far as I can see, has little or no influence. Their opinions are largely discarded, their social beliefs jeered at and ridiculed by the urban elites who control the country and its media and academic circles.

I had no idea that there was a correlation between Alberta's material wealth and the validity of its social beliefs. As for "urban elites": that describes more than 2/3 of Alberta's population.

I'd put it to you that the culture of Alberta, the attitude, the general belief in self reliance and robust sense of personal freedom and responsibility is as different from what you find among the media and political elites in Ottawa/Toronto/Montreal as the English French divide.

If only it were true. However, that is less Alberta's culture as Alberta's enduring myth. For example, why is a culture with such a "robust sense of personal freedom" also on eof the most socially restrictive parts of the country? As far as other myths go, sure Albertans believe in responsibility and freedom from regulation...until times get tough, in which case Albertans are always right there jostling for their spot at the trough. Finally, when it comes to "political elites", you don't have to look much further than the insulated pashas under the dome of the legislature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Blackdog, how can you say that 2/3 of Alberta's population is urban elite? Are you on crack? Ever been to Alberta? The only urban elite is in Edmonton and that is the artsy fartsy's most Albertan's don't like, because they are too lazy to get a job!!!

As far as socially restrictive, yeah maybe, but only to those lazy asses who want welfare and are perfectly able to work in a society that has, in essence, 0% unemployment, were it not for the welfare gang! There are 3 jobs for every person here and unless some major recruiting is done, it will always be that way!

You need to come here and see(of course a weeny like yourself would get the shit knocked out of him), before you try to stereotype Albertans! Come have a look and see what hard working, middle class, downhome kind of people are here in Alberta. Where people will actually say hello, without trying to sell you some useless knick knack as a tourist!

There is a way of life here, unlike the rest of Canada and it needs to be preserved!

Where you see a tractor driving down highway 2 in rush hour and you're not surprised! In Quebec it would be a catastrophe if a tractor tried that!

Cowboy hats and wranglers and ropers are the apparel here! Not preppy tight shirts and spiky hair like you see in your urban centers.

Don't judge until you have actually seen what Alberta is about!

[Guest eureka]

Belgium? Finland? Britain? You could also add Italy to the list at 2.1%; and Austria at 2% as equal: Germany at 1.9% almosy equal. Context indeed!

More significantly, almost every nation grew faster from 1960 to 1980 than since.

I think there is more than economic theoretical niceties at work.

[Toro]

Belgium? Finland? Britain? You could  also add Italy to the list at 2.1%; and Austria at 2% as equal: Germany at 1.9% almosy equal. Context indeed!

More significantly, almost every nation grew faster from 1960 to 1980 than since.

I think there is more than economic theoretical niceties at work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Continue to discussion on global growth here

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3710

[mirror]

Leader Circle

I think Black Dog lives in Alberta!

[Leader Circle]

Leader Circle

I think Black Dog lives in Alberta! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know, that is why he should try opening his eyes....I think he lives on Whyte with the Artsy Fartsy's I speak of!!!

He has no concept of the people of Alberta! Plus voting the way he does, it's a wonder he doesn't get run over by one of my crew trucks!!

LOL

[kimmy]

Leader Circle

I think Black Dog lives in Alberta! 

I know, that is why he should try opening his eyes....I think he lives on Whyte with the Artsy Fartsy's I speak of!!!

He has no concept of the people of Alberta! Plus voting the way he does, it's a wonder he doesn't get run over by one of my crew trucks!!

LOL

There is far more to Alberta than fake cowboys.

-k

(edited for ... let's just say clarity. -k)

[newbie]

Leader Circle

I think Black Dog lives in Alberta! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know, that is why he should try opening his eyes....I think he lives on Whyte with the Artsy Fartsy's I speak of!!!

He has no concept of the people of Alberta! Plus voting the way he does, it's a wonder he doesn't get run over by one of my crew trucks!!

LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aah, more comments to indicate why Alberta has the reputation it does.

[Argus]

Alberta, so far as I can see, has little or no influence. Their opinions are largely discarded, their social beliefs jeered at and ridiculed by the urban elites who control the country and its media and academic circles.

I had no idea that there was a correlation between Alberta's material wealth and the validity of its social beliefs. As for "urban elites": that describes more than 2/3 of Alberta's population.

Didn't say there was any correlation. I said that it's one thing to have to pay more than your share, another to have to pay more than your share and have no say in how it's spent. And "urban" does not equate to "urban elites". I live in a city, but I have as little to do with the wine and cheese set as most people. The "urban elites" are all in central Canada, primarily in Toronto, which is why anything from a garbage strike to a street shooting which takes place in Toronto makes the "national" network news. Because, after all, that's what all the people who run the networks think is important.

I'd put it to you that the culture of Alberta, the attitude, the general belief in self reliance and robust sense of personal freedom and responsibility is as different from what you find among the media and political elites in Ottawa/Toronto/Montreal as the English French divide.

If only it were true. However, that is less Alberta's culture as Alberta's enduring myth.

Oftentimes an "enduring myth" can be a major part of a culture. That's why the myth of the cowboy has so much affect on Americans.

For example, why is a culture with such a "robust sense of personal freedom" also on eof the most socially restrictive parts of the country?

I doubt that's true. They just dissapprove of different behaviour. People in Ontario can be just as socially restrictive. Just look at Mirror's statement that if you're against SSM you don't even qualify as a person, much less a Canadian.

As far as other myths go, sure Albertans believe in responsibility and freedom from regulation...until times get tough, in which case Albertans are always right there jostling for their spot at the trough. Finally, when it comes to "political elites", you don't have to look much further than the insulated pashas under the dome of the legislature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should get a gander at Ontario's politicians these days, or the ones I see here in Ottawa.

[Mad_Michael]

One more though, MM. I did not suggest that was the greatest generatio: just a lot better than the Me generation.

I would go back about three tousand years for the "Greatest generation."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doesn't matter. I don't like "it was better in the old days" arguments of any kind. I've studied way too much history to accept those kind of arguments.

Nothing in the past was half as pretty as people like to believe.

[kimmy]

(deleted)

[Black Dog]

idn't say there was any correlation. I said that it's one thing to have to pay more than your share, another to have to pay more than your share and have no say in how it's spent. And "urban" does not equate to "urban elites". I live in a city, but I have as little to do with the wine and cheese set as most people. The "urban elites" are all in central Canada, primarily in Toronto, which is why anything from a garbage strike to a street shooting which takes place in Toronto makes the "national" network news. Because, after all, that's what all the people who run the networks think is important.

Or it could be because there's more people in the GTA than in Alberta and Saskatchewan combined?

As for the "wine and cheese set" stereotype: please. It's boring. Give it a rest.

Oftentimes an "enduring myth" can be a major part of a culture. That's why the myth of the cowboy has so much affect on Americans.

Fair enough.

I doubt that's true. They just dissapprove of different behaviour. People in Ontario can be just as socially restrictive. Just look at Mirror's statement that if you're against SSM you don't even qualify as a person, much less a Canadian.

They dissapprove of different behaviour (which alone torpedos the notion that of Albertans' robust individualism) to the point where they are willing to legislate against different behaviours (ie. SSM). That makes them restrictive. Of course, legislation aside, Albertans are also prone to other means of expressing their dislike of different opinions: just look at the number of times I've been challenged by fellow Albrtans to "walk into a bar and say that" or how about, not two posts above yours: "Plus voting the way he does, it's a wonder he doesn't get run over by one of my crew trucks!!"

You should get a gander at Ontario's politicians these days, or the ones I see here in Ottawa.

I expect they look a lot like Ralph Klein and his posse, albeit with nicer suits.

Blackdog, how can you say that 2/3 of Alberta's population is urban elite? Are you on crack? Ever been to Alberta? The only urban elite is in Edmonton and that is the artsy fartsy's most Albertan's don't like, because they are too lazy to get a job!!!

Actually, most of Alberta's urban elite lives in Calgary, judging by the per capita income and number of corporate HQs down there. See, in my book, "elite" status depends more on real power (political and economic) than it does fancy book learnin'.

As far as socially restrictive, yeah maybe, but only to those lazy asses who want welfare and are perfectly able to work in a society that has, in essence, 0% unemployment, were it not for the welfare gang! There are 3 jobs for every person here and unless some major recruiting is done, it will always be that way!

I'll refrain from explaining the necessity of unemployment to the capitalist system and instead point out that you're just proving my points here.

You need to come here and see(of course a weeny like yourself would get the shit knocked out of him), before you try to stereotype Albertans! Come have a look and see what hard working, middle class, downhome kind of people are here in Alberta. Where people will actually say hello, without trying to sell you some useless knick knack as a tourist!

As was already pointed out, I was born and raised here. And I would also point out the irony in your accussing me of stereotyping Albertans, even as you trot out ever single tired cliche in the book.

(By the way, why the constant threat of violence with you people? Are your opinions so weak that they can't withstand dissent? Or are you just trying to show what a big tough manly man you are?)

Where you see a tractor driving down highway 2 in rush hour and you're not surprised! In Quebec it would be a catastrophe if a tractor tried that!

Cowboy hats and wranglers and ropers are the apparel here! Not preppy tight shirts and spiky hair like you see in your urban centers.

You need to get off the farm, son. Stop perpetuating every sterotype about Albertans there are and open your eyes. Alberta, for all its faults, is a modern and diverse province. It's people like you, who cling to outdated stereotypes and wax nostalgic for the bygone days who are the are relics and dinosaurs that are holding us back.

[Argus]

idn't say there was any correlation. I said that it's one thing to have to pay more than your share, another to have to pay more than your share and have no say in how it's spent. And "urban" does not equate to "urban elites". I live in a city, but I have as little to do with the wine and cheese set as most people. The "urban elites" are all in central Canada, primarily in Toronto, which is why anything from a garbage strike to a street shooting which takes place in Toronto makes the "national" network news. Because, after all, that's what all the people who run the networks think is important.

Or it could be because there's more people in the GTA than in Alberta and Saskatchewan combined?

Perhaps, but half of them speak little or no English. Besides, it's not just Alberta which is ignored. The government ignores virtually everyone outside central Canada. The national english media ignores everyone outside Toronto.

As for the "wine and cheese set" stereotype: please. It's boring. Give it a rest.

Perhaps it should be champagne and caviar, as our present governor general and her erstwhile intellectual hubby have so ably demonstrated.

I doubt that's true. They just dissapprove of different behaviour. People in Ontario can be just as socially restrictive. Just look at Mirror's statement that if you're against SSM you don't even qualify as a person, much less a Canadian.

They dissapprove of different behaviour (which alone torpedos the notion that of Albertans' robust individualism) to the point where they are willing to legislate against different behaviours (ie. SSM).

Oh? And when have they done that? Besides, no one that I'm aware of wanted to legislate against homosexual behaviour. What they objected to is being required to recognize the equality of a marriage they do not believe is equal. I think most Albertans' opinon could be defined as "Do whatever the hell you want but keep it out of my face."

[Leader Circle]

idn't say there was any correlation. I said that it's one thing to have to pay more than your share, another to have to pay more than your share and have no say in how it's spent. And "urban" does not equate to "urban elites". I live in a city, but I have as little to do with the wine and cheese set as most people. The "urban elites" are all in central Canada, primarily in Toronto, which is why anything from a garbage strike to a street shooting which takes place in Toronto makes the "national" network news. Because, after all, that's what all the people who run the networks think is important.

Or it could be because there's more people in the GTA than in Alberta and Saskatchewan combined?

As for the "wine and cheese set" stereotype: please. It's boring. Give it a rest.

Oftentimes an "enduring myth" can be a major part of a culture. That's why the myth of the cowboy has so much affect on Americans.

Fair enough.

I doubt that's true. They just dissapprove of different behaviour. People in Ontario can be just as socially restrictive. Just look at Mirror's statement that if you're against SSM you don't even qualify as a person, much less a Canadian.

They dissapprove of different behaviour (which alone torpedos the notion that of Albertans' robust individualism) to the point where they are willing to legislate against different behaviours (ie. SSM). That makes them restrictive. Of course, legislation aside, Albertans are also prone to other means of expressing their dislike of different opinions: just look at the number of times I've been challenged by fellow Albrtans to "walk into a bar and say that" or how about, not two posts above yours: "Plus voting the way he does, it's a wonder he doesn't get run over by one of my crew trucks!!"

You should get a gander at Ontario's politicians these days, or the ones I see here in Ottawa.

I expect they look a lot like Ralph Klein and his posse, albeit with nicer suits.

Blackdog, how can you say that 2/3 of Alberta's population is urban elite? Are you on crack? Ever been to Alberta? The only urban elite is in Edmonton and that is the artsy fartsy's most Albertan's don't like, because they are too lazy to get a job!!!

Actually, most of Alberta's urban elite lives in Calgary, judging by the per capita income and number of corporate HQs down there. See, in my book, "elite" status depends more on real power (political and economic) than it does fancy book learnin'.

As far as socially restrictive, yeah maybe, but only to those lazy asses who want welfare and are perfectly able to work in a society that has, in essence, 0% unemployment, were it not for the welfare gang! There are 3 jobs for every person here and unless some major recruiting is done, it will always be that way!

I'll refrain from explaining the necessity of unemployment to the capitalist system and instead point out that you're just proving my points here.

You need to come here and see(of course a weeny like yourself would get the shit knocked out of him), before you try to stereotype Albertans! Come have a look and see what hard working, middle class, downhome kind of people are here in Alberta. Where people will actually say hello, without trying to sell you some useless knick knack as a tourist!

As was already pointed out, I was born and raised here. And I would also point out the irony in your accussing me of stereotyping Albertans, even as you trot out ever single tired cliche in the book.

(By the way, why the constant threat of violence with you people? Are your opinions so weak that they can't withstand dissent? Or are you just trying to show what a big tough manly man you are?)

Where you see a tractor driving down highway 2 in rush hour and you're not surprised! In Quebec it would be a catastrophe if a tractor tried that!

Cowboy hats and wranglers and ropers are the apparel here! Not preppy tight shirts and spiky hair like you see in your urban centers.

You need to get off the farm, son. Stop perpetuating every sterotype about Albertans there are and open your eyes. Alberta, for all its faults, is a modern and diverse province. It's people like you, who cling to outdated stereotypes and wax nostalgic for the bygone days who are the are relics and dinosaurs that are holding us back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not stereotyping anything, I am saying that, as much as Quebec has a case for sovereignty, so does Alberta!

I don't threaten any violence to scare you, I tell you what the average working man thinks of union-type people who care about nothing but themselves. It frustrates me for people to abuse a system just because they can and it seems like you promote unemployment!

Bottom line: Alberta is a great place and needs more recognition from Ottawa.

[Black Dog]

I am not stereotyping anything, I am saying that, as much as Quebec has a case for sovereignty, so does Alberta!

Come on. You complained that I was sterotyping Alberta and then proceeded to reel off a litany of traits that constitute a "real" Albertan that came straight out of "Okie from Muskogee..."

For example:

The only urban elite is in Edmonton and that is the artsy fartsy's most Albertan's don't like, because they are too lazy to get a job!!!

Come have a look and see what hard working, middle class, downhome kind of people are here in Alberta.

Cowboy hats and wranglers and ropers are the apparel here! Not preppy tight shirts and spiky hair like you see in your urban centers.

Sounds like a place where even squares can have a ball.

I don't threaten any violence to scare you, I tell you what the average working man thinks of union-type people who care about nothing but themselves. It frustrates me for people to abuse a system just because they can and it seems like you promote unemployment!

I'm not scared as internet threats are pretty meaningless. However, your behaviour does little to counteract the image of Albertans as ignorant knuckledragging hicks: indeed, it confirms it. As an Albertan, I have no interest in seeing such sterotypes perpetuated.

[mirror]

And from the 2nd and final member of the WBP, Doug Christie was the first, remember.

Here is another tale of woe about this terrible country called Canada. Seriously where does he come up with this dribble?

I can see it all now when Dick Cheney recoperates from the Katrina disaster, he will be coming back to Calagary to speak at that bastion of Canadian goodwill, the Fraser Institute, to declare that to bring democracy to them, just like they did for Iraq, the US is going annex, ah Alberta's the one with the oil isn't it, yes, Alberta.

Secession of the West: Is it Time?

Now, a sure path to re-election lies open to Paul Martin's Liberal government. He will pass legislation imposing a sweeping seizure of Alberta's resource revenues to prevent the calamity Courchene perceives. Alberta will scream wildly. Martin will sweep Ontario and the Atlantic provinces and possibly pick up seats in Quebec by championing the cause of "Canada" against the grasping avarice of Alberta's "oil barons."

It will be a re-enactment, that is, of the Trudeau formula of the 1970s and '80s: Win Canada by campaigning against Alberta.

However, apart from the change in the polls, something else is new since Trudeau's day. In order to prevent a separatist government in Quebec from securing a referendum victory with an ambiguous question on the ballot, the Liberals passed the "Clarity Act," requiring a clear question on any separation vote. But in so doing, they unwittingly provided a constitutionally valid path by which any province could opt out of the Canadian federation.

Something else will no doubt gall Albertans, notably what the federal government will almost certainly do with the revenues it seizes. The manufacturing industries of Ontario and Quebec, like manufacturing industries all over the U.S., can expect to face increasingly sharp competition from Asia, particularly from China.

Martin will almost certainly use the funds he gets in Alberta to artificially shore up Quebec and Ontario industry against this competition. But the industries will not be saved, will go under anyway, and the Canadian bonanza from the oil boom will have been wasted. The question is: Will the Alberta voter realize that soon enough? Certainly not if Ottawa can help it.

PS I think Jim Dinning is going to do just fine!