Western Separation

[Leader Circle]

This is from the Western Standard.

A nation torn apart

An exclusive Western Standard poll shows more than a third of westerners are thinking of separating from Canada. What’s dividing the country--and can anything be done to save it?

Kevin Steel - August 22, 2005

Western Independence How much do you agree with the following statement: “Western Canadians should begin to explore the idea of forming their own country”?

By Gender Male Female All Respondents

Agree 42.7 28.7 35.6

Disagree 57.3 71.3 64.4

By Age 18–29 30–44 45–64 65+

Agree 37.2 36.1 33.7 36.3

Disagree 62.8 63.9 66.3 63.7

By Province B.C. Alberta Saskatchewan Manitoba

Agree 32.1 43.0 33.6 28.8

Disagree 67.9 57.0 66.4 71.2

How effective do you think Prime Minister Paul Martin’s government has been at eliminating the democratic deficit since being elected one year ago?

Poor 56.8%

Good 43.2 %

How effective do you think the Martin government has been at ending western alienation since being elected one year ago?

Poor 64.0%

Good 36.0%

How much has the Gomery inquiry testimony impacted your opinion of western Canadians exploring the idea of forming their own country?

Increased 38.0%

No impact 34.8%

Reduced 27.2%

How much did the manner in which the Liberals won the budget confidence vote impact your opinion of western Canadians exploring the idea of forming their own country?

Increased 37.5%

No impact 36.6%

Reduced 25.9%

What impact would a Liberal re-election likely have on your opinion of western Canadians exploring the idea of forming their own country?

Increased 40.4%

No impact 35.5%

Reduced 24.0%

The poll was conducted around Canada Day, between June 29 and July 5, 2005, when sentiment for federation should have been running at its peak. It sampled 1,448 adults and had a margin of error of plus or minus 2.6 per cent, 19 times out of 20.

That’s the conclusion of a Western Standard poll, which found that a record number of people in all four western provinces say they are willing to look at separating from the East. According to the poll, which was conducted in July, using random selection methods, 35.6 per cent of westerners agreed with the statement: "Western Canadians should begin to explore the idea of forming their own country." How serious is that? In Quebec, measures of separatist sentiment often find about 37 per cent of Quebecers endorsing independence (though, at times, the numbers have risen as high as 55 per cent, as was the case with a poll conducted by the newspaper La Presse in July).

http://www.westernstandard.ca/website/inde...28&pagenumber=1

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This is quite surprising!

Interesting read.

[shoop]

43% of people think Martin has done a good job of eliminating the democratic defiicit?

wtf? what planet are those people living on?

man I hate agreeing with anything published in Ezra's little rag.

[canadian_conservative]

The reason western Canada wants to seperate is because they are paying taxes and high prices for oil they produce the provinces that actually produce the gas are paying over a buck more than any other province to get their own tanks filled with their gas. I don;t think it's fair and even I would want to seperate if my province was being treated unfairly.

[Black Dog]

(A) Already a thread on this over here.

( The Western Standard goes in here.

[canadian_conservative]

To view this link, you need to sign up for a free membership.

This is quite surprising!

Interesting read.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do I reall have to sign up? that seems like a lot of work? by the way I am half supprised you didn't bash me for my oppinion below because I have notices you go around and do that to alot of people includign me.

[Black Dog]

Do I reall have to sign up? that seems like a lot of work? by the way I am half supprised you didn't bash me for my oppinion below because I have notices you go around and do that to alot of people includign me.

Don't take it so personally. It's a discussion board, not an agreement board.

[canadian_conservative]

Do I reall have to sign up? that seems like a lot of work? by the way I am half supprised you didn't bash me for my oppinion below because I have notices you go around and do that to alot of people includign me.

Don't take it so personally. It's a discussion board, not an agreement board.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly but I am being slammed for disscussing a topic and being told by leaders circle that I insult people for their oppinion than the hypocryte slams me for my oppinion.

[Leader Circle]

Do I reall have to sign up? that seems like a lot of work? by the way I am half supprised you didn't bash me for my oppinion below because I have notices you go around and do that to alot of people includign me.

Don't take it so personally. It's a discussion board, not an agreement board.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly but I am being slammed for disscussing a topic and being told by leaders circle that I insult people for their oppinion than the hypocryte slams me for my oppinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I decided to edit this post. Was of poor taste and I will not stoop to that level!

Sorry CC, I don't slam you for your opinion. Being on the same side of the political spectrum, it amazes me how different we are.

[canadian_conservative]

Do I reall have to sign up? that seems like a lot of work? by the way I am half supprised you didn't bash me for my oppinion below because I have notices you go around and do that to alot of people includign me.

Don't take it so personally. It's a discussion board, not an agreement board.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly but I am being slammed for disscussing a topic and being told by leaders circle that I insult people for their oppinion than the hypocryte slams me for my oppinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I decided to edit this post. Was of poor taste and I will not stoop to that level!

Sorry CC, I don't slam you for your opinion. Being on the same side of the political spectrum, it amazes me how different we are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well if your serious I will take some blame on my part to. I appologise for my comments before. Yes it is quite amazing how we do differ.

[SirSpanky]

Back on topic....

The reason western Canada wants to seperate is because they are paying taxes and high prices for oil they produce the provinces that actually produce the gas are paying over a buck more than any other province to get their own tanks filled with their gas.  I don;t think it's fair and even I would want to seperate if my province was being treated unfairly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Alberta seperates, and the albertan federal government wants cheap gas from thier oil fields, do you think that the companies who can sell it for $60 a barrell in the open market will want to sell it close to home for less? Likely, no. Then the oil producers themselves will want their own country, and seperate from Alberta!! They'd probably be better off taxing the high gas sales. This still leaves albertans with market prices.

And what province is paying a dollar more (per liter I guess you were referring to) than other provinces?

I think the desire to seperate is more based on alienation (although I have no desire to seperate so that is purely speculation)

[Leader Circle]

Back on topic....

The reason western Canada wants to seperate is because they are paying taxes and high prices for oil they produce the provinces that actually produce the gas are paying over a buck more than any other province to get their own tanks filled with their gas.  I don;t think it's fair and even I would want to seperate if my province was being treated unfairly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Alberta seperates, and the albertan federal government wants cheap gas from thier oil fields, do you think that the companies who can sell it for $60 a barrell in the open market will want to sell it close to home for less? Likely, no. Then the oil producers themselves will want their own country, and seperate from Alberta!! They'd probably be better off taxing the high gas sales. This still leaves albertans with market prices.

And what province is paying a dollar more (per liter I guess you were referring to) than other provinces?

I think the desire to seperate is more based on alienation (although I have no desire to seperate so that is purely speculation)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think alot of the reason westerners want separation is, mainly alienation from central Canada. We realize we have no say in federal matters because all of the western seats put together do not even match Ontario's totals. Also, when you are treated like second class citizens by the PM himself(Not even bothering to stop in Alberta during his campaign), you begin to realize that we don't matter to our leader. Having a PM from central Canada also makes westerners mad because they don't feel they are being represented by him and when he fights a battle it is only for Ont & Que and not the west. Little things like the senate appointments here recently, tend to set people off too. More & more we are losing our vote.

It also seems that everything revolves around Quebec's issues with federalism and the PM seems determined to give them anything they want. So, it is possible that if western separation is a possibility, maybe PM will wake up & give a little love to the west! I doubt it, but it is worth a shot. Maybe handing over more power to the provinces will lessen that separation need??

www.separationalberta.com

[Black Dog]

I think alot of the reason westerners want separation is, mainly alienation from central Canada. We realize we have no say in federal matters because all of the western seats put together do not even match Ontario's totals. Also, when you are treated like second class citizens by the PM himself(Not even bothering to stop in Alberta during his campaign), you begin to realize that we don't matter to our leader. Having a PM from central Canada also makes westerners mad because they don't feel they are being represented by him and when he fights a battle it is only for Ont & Que and not the west. Little things like the senate appointments here recently, tend to set people off too. More & more we are losing our vote.

Such is the nature of the current electoral system. Simple population distribution weights the East more than the west and exaggerates regional disparities.

Ditching the FPTP electroral system would ensure greater western representation and a stronger voice.

The reason western Canada wants to seperate is because they are paying taxes and high prices for oil they produce the provinces that actually produce the gas are paying over a buck more than any other province to get their own tanks filled with their gas.  I don;t think it's fair and even I would want to seperate if my province was being treated unfairly.

Sorry dude: you're mistaken.

Here's how prices broke down in major Canadian markets yesterday, along with the percentage change since last week.

WHITEHORSE +1.2%

108.9

VANCOUVER +6.8%

105.5

CALGARY -0.4%

90.5

SASKATOON -2%

94.9

WINNIPEG +0.1%

94.1

SUDBURY +10.3%

96.7

TORONTO +2.1%

96.1

OTTAWA +3.9%

98.4

MONTREAL +9.1%

108.4

QUEBEC 0.0%

101.4

SAINT JOHN +3.6%

104.9

CHARLOTTETOWN 0.0%

100.3

HALIFAX +6%

104.9

ST. JOHN'S 0.0%

104.8

-source: M.J. Ervin + Associates

Albertans pay less for gas than everyone else.

[CentralCanadian]

Here we go,

Sadly, I live in the wealthiest Canadian Province and I feel sympathetic for Westerners. The Parliment needs to dissolve, and we need a Republic with two-tiered 'Functioning' Congress. The current system gives to much power to one party or person, call me an American or 'Bush-lover', the truth is I'm niether. Our PM should elected based on a popular vote, and our reps should have nothing to do directly with who gets into office, I think people should take a poll on that. All and all I believe that there is no current party that is 'Centrist' enough to keep this country progressing. Martin is weak and we see that so clearly in his presentation and pose so I believe if this issue came up as a political vote, I might just move to the west, at least there they are little more democratic minded.

[Guest eureka]

I think I have my property surveyed; put an electric fence around it; and issue a UDI. Then I can go about my business in peace without being bothered by all this drivel.

Hands up any who have ever taken a course in Canadian Government!

[Redneck Yokel]

Here we go,

Sadly, I live in the wealthiest Canadian Province and I feel sympathetic for Westerners.  The Parliment needs to dissolve, and we need a Republic with two-tiered 'Functioning' Congress.  The current system gives to much power to one party or person, call me an American or 'Bush-lover', the truth is I'm niether.  Our PM should elected based on a popular vote, and our reps should have nothing to do directly with who gets into office, I think people should take a poll on that.  All and all I believe that there is no current party that is 'Centrist' enough to keep this country progressing.  Martin is weak and we see that so clearly in his presentation and pose so I believe if this issue came up as a political vote, I might just move to the west, at least there they are little more democratic minded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I fully support the idea of a more 'American' style system, as our system is either non-functional or completely dictatorial (at any one time). I believe that many of our political woes would be solved with a simple (actually more of an overhaul) revamp of the system which we abide by at this time.

[CentralCanadian]

*Announcer Voice* Well Johny tell them what they've won!

*Johny* They've won the REPUBLIC OF CANADA, complete with fully functional Commons and a fully-functional elected Senate, whats more they will actually be able to chose their PM, this baby will be completely and utterly and truly DEMOCRATIC ALL RIIIIGGGHTT!

[crazymf]

Well this may come as a surprise to some of you, but I think it's silliness to separate. After reading much about the separation movements, it looks like more of the same with the power struggles and beaurocracies. What this country really needs is a strong leader who can bring ALL of Canada together. If the french want out, give them everything north of the river so we can keep in touch with the maritimes. The rest of the country would stick together like glue if we got rid of them.

Better yet, send a trainload of Indians another of whiskey and another of guns to Quebec and let them figure it out. We'll send someone out in a couple of weeks to shoot the last one standing.

Seriously, who in their right or left brain would sacrifice the easy lifestyle most of us enjoy merely to gain political clout. I haven't heard one separatist come up with a plan where my lifestyle will get better with separation, only that the 'government' will be structured better blah blah blah.

After travelling to Cape Breton last year and talking to people across the country, I realized there is NO difference in the day to day lifestyle of any of us. Even the french dude in Quebec City did his best to help us get directions when there was an absolute language barrier.

So, fellow Albertans, why separate? I'm not convinced. Give me good reasons. Quantitative reasons. Not just political ramblings. It makes no sense.

What makes more sense is to then amalgamate all of North America into a single nation.

[Leader Circle]

Well this may come as a surprise to some of you, but I think it's silliness to separate. After reading much about the separation movements, it looks like more of the same with the power struggles and beaurocracies. What this country really needs is a strong leader who can bring ALL of Canada together. If the french want out, give them everything north of the river so we can keep in touch with the maritimes. The rest of the country would stick together like glue if we got rid of them.

Better yet, send a trainload of Indians another of whiskey and another of guns to Quebec and let them figure it out. We'll send someone out in a couple of weeks to shoot the last one standing.

Seriously, who in their right or left brain would sacrifice the easy lifestyle most of us enjoy merely to gain political clout. I haven't heard one separatist come up with a plan where my lifestyle will get better with separation, only that the 'government' will be structured better blah blah blah.

After travelling to Cape Breton last year and talking to people across the country, I realized there is NO difference in the day to day lifestyle of any of us. Even the french dude in Quebec City did his best to help us get directions when there was an absolute language barrier.

So, fellow Albertans, why separate? I'm not convinced. Give me good reasons. Quantitative reasons. Not just political ramblings. It makes no sense.

What makes more sense is to then amalgamate all of North America into a single nation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the are about 11 billion reasons to separate. That would be the amount of equalization money sent to Ottawa in 2003 with little return. If Alberta has no debt, why should we held pay the national debt? It was started by Trudeau, why would we help anything that involved that loser?

We would get rid of the useless GST! Lets have elected officials that are forced to vote the way the people want them to. (there's a novel idea)

I am sure there are many more reasons for separation, but I don't want Alberta to separate if we can find an accountable government. If the Liberals can be ousted in the next election, I would not support separation. If the Liberals make government after the next election, I will support separation as strongly as I can!!!

[Black Dog]

I think the are about 11 billion reasons to separate. That would be the amount of equalization money sent to Ottawa in 2003 with little return. If Alberta has no debt, why should we held pay the national debt? It was started by Trudeau, why would we help anything that involved that loser?

We would get rid of the useless GST! Lets have elected officials that are forced to vote the way the people want them to. (there's a novel idea)

I am sure there are many more reasons for separation, but I don't want Alberta to separate if we can find an accountable government. If the Liberals can be ousted in the next election, I would not support separation. If the Liberals make government after the next election, I will support separation as strongly as I can!!!

First: I have never seen any figures showing who pays what into equalization: anybody have some handy?

Second: details aside, why are people convinced that separation would change any of these things? Alberta's political system suffers with many of the same flaws as the federal system (such as a lak of public input and a serious democratic deficit): The elite in Alberta have benefitted greatly from this set up and I highly doubt they'd be willing to change it.

[crazymf]

I think the are about 11 billion reasons to separate. That would be the amount of equalization money sent to Ottawa in 2003 with little return. If Alberta has no debt, why should we held pay the national debt? It was started by Trudeau, why would we help anything that involved that loser?

We would get rid of the useless GST! Lets have elected officials that are forced to vote the way the people want them to. (there's a novel idea)

I am sure there are many more reasons for separation, but I don't want Alberta to separate if we can find an accountable government. If the Liberals can be ousted in the next election, I would not support separation. If the Liberals make government after the next election, I will support separation as strongly as I can!!!

Agreed, but get real. The mainstream(so to speak) separatists all bitch and whine about what's wrong instead of focusing on a productive positive direction for the west. I am on the fence on the issue. When and if we ever identify a leader capable of leading the west, I'll listen. If we ever get a competent leader in Ottawa, that would be the preference.

I love Canada and being Canadian. Being an Albertan is a pride as well and I was born here. It will take a lot more than rhetoric to get me to actually cut and run from the rest of Canada. I think it is more possible that from northern Ontario west could separate as one country. The french could conceivably take over the east.

Alberta separation alone is not going to happen imo. A groundswell of support for mutual separation with Quebec is more likely.

[Mad_Michael]

I think the are about 11 billion reasons to separate.

By this reasoning, Toronto alone has 20 billion reasons to separate.

...If Alberta has no debt, why should we held pay the national debt?

Because Alberta was legally incorporated under the Canadian Government - thus Albertans have a proportional share of said debts, incurred to the theoretical benefit of Albertans. Repudiation of said debts would turn Alberta into a banana republic.

It was started by Trudeau, why would we help anything that involved that loser?

You are showing your ignorance of actual facts here - which really calls into question the validity of your other statements.

We would get rid of the useless GST! Lets have elected officials that are forced to vote the way the people want them to. (there's a novel idea). 

If elected representatives were required to have a poll election or referendum in every riding of the country for every decision as you are suggesting here, I respectfully submit our governance would be worse (and far more annoying).

I am sure there are many more reasons for separation, but I don't want Alberta to separate if we can find an accountable government.

I'm still waiting for the first valid reason to be given. All hear so far is just whinging.

If the Liberals can be ousted in the next election, I would not support separation. If the Liberals make government after the next election, I will support separation as strongly as I can!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So long as that Alberta 'Reform' group controls the Conservative Party of Canada, there is no one else who can form a Government in Canada besides the Liberal Party and thus, endless Liberal election victories are foreseen as probable. Eventually Albertans might figure it out that they are the ones causing the Liberal majorities, not Ontario.

[Leader Circle]

I think the are about 11 billion reasons to separate. That would be the amount of equalization money sent to Ottawa in 2003 with little return. If Alberta has no debt, why should we held pay the national debt? It was started by Trudeau, why would we help anything that involved that loser?

We would get rid of the useless GST! Lets have elected officials that are forced to vote the way the people want them to. (there's a novel idea)

I am sure there are many more reasons for separation, but I don't want Alberta to separate if we can find an accountable government. If the Liberals can be ousted in the next election, I would not support separation. If the Liberals make government after the next election, I will support separation as strongly as I can!!!

First: I have never seen any figures showing who pays what into equalization: anybody have some handy?

Second: details aside, why are people convinced that separation would change any of these things? Alberta's political system suffers with many of the same flaws as the federal system (such as a lak of public input and a serious democratic deficit): The elite in Alberta have benefitted greatly from this set up and I highly doubt they'd be willing to change it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From the SPA website:

http://www.separationalberta.com/why.asp

[Riverwind]

I think the are about 11 billion reasons to separate. That would be the amount of equalization money sent to Ottawa in 2003 with little return.

Equalization money is funded from general revenues which means there is absolutely no way to calculate how much comes from Alberta. However, in terms of total dollars - Ontario pays much more into the pot than Alberta does so Ontario has more right to complain.

If the Liberals can be ousted in the next election, I would not support separation. If the Liberals make government after the next election, I will support separation as strongly as I can!!!

Would you support separation of Red Deer If Albertans elected an NDP gov't because people in Calgary and Edmonton decided they are sick of the Conservatives? If you have a problem with the first past the post system that gives absolute power to a minority then you could start by advocating change to the way Alberta elects its gov't. However, I am pretty sure that you don't have a problem with the electoral system in Alberta because it elects people who you agree with. That makes you a hypocrite if you complain about the flaws in the Canadian electoral system but ignore identical flaws in the Alberta electoral system.

[Leader Circle]

I think the are about 11 billion reasons to separate.

By this reasoning, Toronto alone has 20 billion reasons to separate.

...If Alberta has no debt, why should we held pay the national debt?

Because Alberta was legally incorporated under the Canadian Government - thus Albertans have a proportional share of said debts, incurred to the theoretical benefit of Albertans. Repudiation of said debts would turn Alberta into a banana republic.

It was started by Trudeau, why would we help anything that involved that loser?

You are showing your ignorance of actual facts here - which really calls into question the validity of your other statements.

We would get rid of the useless GST! Lets have elected officials that are forced to vote the way the people want them to. (there's a novel idea). 

If elected representatives were required to have a poll election or referendum in every riding of the country for every decision as you are suggesting here, I respectfully submit our governance would be worse (and far more annoying).

I am sure there are many more reasons for separation, but I don't want Alberta to separate if we can find an accountable government.

I'm still waiting for the first valid reason to be given. All hear so far is just whinging.

If the Liberals can be ousted in the next election, I would not support separation. If the Liberals make government after the next election, I will support separation as strongly as I can!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So long as that Alberta 'Reform' group controls the Conservative Party of Canada, there is no one else who can form a Government in Canada besides the Liberal Party and thus, endless Liberal election victories are foreseen as probable. Eventually Albertans might figure it out that they are the ones causing the Liberal majorities, not Ontario.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The title of Mad is right! I'll leave it at that!

[crazymf]

Equalization money is funded from general revenues which means there is absolutely no way to calculate how much comes from Alberta. However, in terms of total dollars - Ontario pays much more into the pot than Alberta does so Ontario has more right to complain.

Per capita, or total? Where are your numbers derived from?

Your comment seems to contradict itself. On one hand you can't calculate Albertas portion and on the other Ontario pays more. Please clarify.