The Kandahar Mission

[canadian_conservative]

Way to go Canadian armed forces!!!

I think we are doing a good deed by sending are troops into Afganistan to rebuild, provide security and to do humanitarian aid all at the same time. I think it is proving Canada's roll in the world and proving to other countries that are armed forces can really to goo things for people. I think the money funded to are armed forces is a start to a good thing and hopefully can be made better within the future. I think are armed forces will be revamped to serve Canada and abroad Canada's military future is starting to look bright. Way too go Canada

Good luck to are forces in Kandahar Afganistan may you come home safe.

[crazymf]

I was wondering when this thread was coming. I agree with everything you said. I just hope those people deserve and appreciate it. From everyone I've talked to who's been there, the place is a clusterf**k with rampant poverty and a completely different reality.

[Army Guy]

The Kandahar Mission is much different than our current mission in Kabul. And the PRT (provincal reconstruction teams) are just a small part of the new mission. the main focus will be assisting the US in bringing the fight to the Taliban.

There is no new money for DND, the monies the liberals promised will not even bring DND out of the red for another couple years, even then there will not be enough for any major purchase of any equipment....Don't let the liberals fool you with all thier promises in regards to DND...Gen Hillier is restructuring the dept so we can atleast carry on with our jobs with what little monies our goverment gives us.

[Black Dog]

can_con: given your concern for Canadian soveriegnty, it may interest you to know that the Canadan contingent in Afghanistan answers to U.S. brass. While the operation is being conducted under the NATO banner, the NATO contingent answers to the Supreme Commander in Europe, who is always an American general.

What's most disturbing is the fact this whole operation was signed off with no public debate as to the role of the Canadian Forces, what level of effective operational control the U.S. military will have over Canadian Forces, what the protocol is with regards to prisioners of war (I for one don't feel comfortable with Canadians handing folks over to Uncle Sam for shipment to Gitmo) and so on.

The U.S. cleared out of Afghanistan to pave the way for their Iraq invasion. Why are we fighting the Yanks' war?

[Yaro]

This mission is total crap. The first mission in Afganistan had a reasonable premise, this one is about nothing more then American empire building, there is no way we should be there.

[newbie]

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[canadian_conservative]

Great point about this will not evenm bring are DND out of the hole I completly agree with you. But this new money that was given is a boost to what it could have been and it is a major start for the rehabilitation of are armed forces. If the Conservative government succeeds and brings the librals down next parliment session and Harper gets in office are armed forces are good and ready. About your top brass thing, yes we do report to an american general who is unfortunatly leading are forces but we havnt lost total soverenty casue of that he is just commanding the allied forces their. sombody needs to be in charge don't they? Their has also been generals from the Uk that have commanded the allied forces by the way.

Are presence their is not for an american empire it is to help[ ease the terrorist activities by Taliban and Alqada their, and to bring peace and rehabilitation to this country.

[canadian_conservative]

The U.S. cleared out of Afghanistan to pave the way for their Iraq invasion. Why are we fighting the Yanks' war?

Iraq was an illegal and outright idiotic invasion with no purpose on the presidents part except for self gain (oil)

Don't mix the war of Iraq and Afganistan together, Afganistan is a war on terror and to abolish terrorism the world's new threat, its not Hitler its not the Russians these are terrorists that we are fighting today. So I wouldnt call it a Yank war I would call it an allied war with all NATO Allies against the terrorists.

[Argus]

Great point about this will not evenm bring are DND out of the hole I completly agree with you.  But this new money that was given is a boost to what it could have been and it is a major start for the rehabilitation of are armed forces.

If the Martin government actually winds up carrying through on its promises - which is unlikely - the promised money would be, at best a moderate boost to the armed forces. Martin backloaded these numbers for a reason (ie, almost all new money comes only in the fourth and fifth year, that is, 4-5 years from now), and that reason is that this government will certainly not survive that long. If he gets a majority he can throw this promise away. If he's booted out it doesn't exist. If he gets in with another minority, well, stuff happens, eh. In any event, the money is not nearly enough to really begin rehabilitating the armed forces, not without a lot of extra bucks for the major purchases the military needs. And Martin has thus far in his political career shown absolutely no interest in the military except as a source of additional cash when he wants to cut budgets.

[Argus]

This mission is total crap. The first mission in Afganistan had a reasonable premise, this one is about nothing more then American empire building, there is no way we should be there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Empire building? In Afghanistan? Drivel. The only interest the US has there is in setting up a somewhat moderate, somewhat pro-western government and getting out. Leaving now, especially if weak-kneed partners like Canada leave as well, would cause Afghanistan to fall back into the civil war days between the warlords.

[Argus]

The U.S. cleared out of Afghanistan to pave the way for their Iraq invasion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No doubt that would be somewhat of a surprise to the US troops in Afghanistan.

[Black Dog]

The U.S. cleared out of Afghanistan to pave the way for their Iraq invasion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No doubt that would be somewhat of a surprise to the US troops in Afghanistan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say they abandoned it completely, did I? Nonetheless, resources were siphoned away from Afghanistan to Iraq.

Are presence their is not for an american empire it is to help[ ease the terrorist activities by Taliban and Alqada their, and to bring peace and rehabilitation to this country.

Sure. Just like the Soviets. And the British before them. And so on and so forth back to Alexander the Great. How did that work out?

[Army Guy]

Black dog:

What's most disturbing is the fact this whole operation was signed off with no public debate as to the role of the Canadian Forces, what level of effective operational control the U.S. military will have over Canadian Forces, what the protocol is with regards to prisioners of war (I for one don't feel comfortable with Canadians handing folks over to Uncle Sam for shipment to Gitmo) and so on.

Actually the debate has already happened, all that is happening is we are continuing on with the orginal mission, just in a different location.

Yes, Canadain troops will be under US Command and control, that being said the Canadian commander does have a say in how they will be deployed. As for the POW's nothing has changed they are handed over to the US for processing.

[canadian_conservative]

Your right Martin did screw the people like me who were waiting to get a big boost in are amred forces over. But as long as that minority lasts and for god sake I hope it does Mr HArper will push and push and nag (he is good at that) to get funding for are military. If worst comes to worse and people fall for Martins charm and he gets re elected he will have Hillier pushing him to keep up the funding. Like I said in another forum about Hillier, the General would make a damned fine Defense Minister.

[Black Dog]

Actually the debate has already happened, all that is happening is we are continuing on with the orginal mission, just in a different location.

But you said yourself the mission is different. We're not going as peacekeepers or rebuilders, but as Uncle Sam's proxy army.

Yes, Canadain troops will be under US Command and control, that being said the Canadian commander does have a say in how they will be deployed. As for the POW's nothing has changed they are handed over to the US for processing

In other words: processed to secret detention facilities to be held without charge or trial, or rendered to other nations for interregation including torture. That's not something I as a Canadian want on my conscience.

[Army Guy]

Black dog:

But you said yourself the mission is different. We're not going as peacekeepers or rebuilders, but as Uncle Sam's proxy army.

No, not exactly. Our orginal mission was to fight terrorist or taliban our role changed when we moved up north to help with the security of kabul...now our role is being changed again and the camp is moving down south around Kanadar, they will be running many different types of missions out of Kanadar, fighting the taliban,done by our JTF and regular army troops...the PRT's (provincal reconstructing teams) have a separate mission which is to rebuild infra structure etc and will not be doing any fighting unless engaged by the taliban...

In other words: processed to secret detention facilities to be held without charge or trial, or rendered to other nations for interregation including torture. That's not something I as a Canadian want on my conscience.

Yes, your right...however i've explained this before we do not arrest or detain persons unless they are caught red handed either in combat or about to engage in combat...

[Yaro]

Empire building? In Afghanistan? Drivel. The only interest the US has there is in setting up a somewhat moderate, somewhat pro-western government and getting out. Leaving now, especially if weak-kneed partners like Canada leave as well, would cause Afghanistan to fall back into the civil war days between the warlords.

The US is currently setting up 8 permanent bases in Afghanistan, 6 of these bases are going to be set up for strategic air defence. Now unless the Taliban recently aquired some advanced fighter jets those bases don't have anything to do with Afgahanistan there completely aimed at the Chinese and Russians.

I wan't nothing to do with any cold war that the US wants to start to distract there population from there economic problems.

[Argus]

Empire building? In Afghanistan? Drivel. The only interest the US has there is in setting up a somewhat moderate, somewhat pro-western government and getting out. Leaving now, especially if weak-kneed partners like Canada leave as well, would cause Afghanistan to fall back into the civil war days between the warlords.

The US is currently setting up 8 permanent bases in Afghanistan, 6 of these bases are going to be set up for strategic air defence. Now unless the Taliban recently aquired some advanced fighter jets those bases don't have anything to do with Afgahanistan there completely aimed at the Chinese and Russians.

The US has permanent bases in a lot of places which aren't part of its "empire".

[Yaro]

The US has bases in about 80% of the world’s countries, that’s not even remotely relevant. The US is setting up house in Afghanistan in a way that is completely outside the "war on terror". If the US wants to setup 8 bases to contain Russia and China, that’s fine but I don't want to be anywhere near it.

I don't think it’s a good idea to get involved in a cold war that we can't possible come out ahead because of.

[Army Guy]

Yaro:

Where are you getting your info from ?

[Yaro]

Which information?

The information about the military bases?

I read this in a report out from the pentagon, I will try to find an online version a little later. However this has been in the works for some time and the fact that Uzbekistan is evicting the USs primary air base in the region has fast tracked US plans for the bases.

[Army Guy]

Yaro:

I read this in a report out from the pentagon, I will try to find an online version a little later. However this has been in the works for some time and the fact that Uzbekistan is evicting the USs primary air base in the region has fast tracked US plans for the bases.

The US is currently setting up 8 permanent bases in Afghanistan, 6 of these bases are going to be set up for strategic air defence. Now unless the Taliban recently aquired some advanced fighter jets those bases don't have anything to do with Afgahanistan there completely aimed at the Chinese and Russians.

My Webpage

The US already has three operational bases inside Afghanistan; the main logistical center for the US-led coalition in Afghanistan is Bagram Air Field north of Kabul - known by US military forces as "BAF". Observers point out that Bagram is not a full-fledged air base.

Other key US-run logistical centers in Afghanistan include Kandahar Air Field, or "KAF", in southern Afghanistan and Shindand Air Field in the western province of Herat. Shindand is about 100 kilometers from the border with Iran, a location that makes it controversial. Moreover, according to the US-based think-tank Global Security, Shindand is the largest air base in Afghanistan.

My Webpage

Last December, US Army spokesman Major Mark McCann said the United States was building four military bases in Afghanistan that would only be used by the Afghan National Army. On that occasion, McCann stated, "We are building a base in Herat. It is true." McCann added that Herat was one of four bases being built; the others were in the southern province of Kandahar, the southeastern city of Gardez in Paktia province, and Mazar-i-Sharif, the northern city controlling the main route to central Afghanistan.

Or this site that says they are considering building perment bases.

My Webpage

[Yaro]

Ya, I know the present situation. I also know that because of the closure of there main airbase in the area they will be building at least 4 permanent bases and have plans for 4 more.

There is also increasing tension with Pakistan due to the US's strategic alliance with India (when are people going to learn not to trust India?).

Thanks for the links, not really anything I didn't know though.

[lenwick]

Rondi Adamson says blunt talk about the true nature of war is a wakeup call for Canadians

U.S. Gen. George Patton once famously told troops that, "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other, poor dumb bastard die for his country."

I'm fairly certain not much fuss was made about that comment, because it was, and is, true. And yet Gen. Rick Hillier's equally accurate comments about the nature of war and the nature of terrorists, have addled many — and not just easily addled Carolyn Parrish.

I suspect this is because Canadians are not accustomed to hearing the truth about what an army does or what war is all about. For more than three decades we have been told that we are "peacekeepers," as though that role never involves killing or dealing with scumbags and murderers. More than 100 Canadian soldiers have died in peacekeeping operations in the last 50 years. In the Balkans alone, more than 20 died, and some died from enemy fire. I take some comfort knowing those guys were prepared to kill in return. At the very least, "peacekeeping" involves keeping the peace we have graciously allowed someone else to make in the first place by sacrificing young men and women. How any moral superiority can be claimed in these scenarios is difficult to glean.

Canadians are even less familiar with hearing our military leaders express opinions. Those leaders have, like Canada's military itself, been neutered. This is a shame, since part of their job is to understand the situation they are dealing with and, one would hope, make a judgment about it. This is not to say they should make policy decisions. But we should welcome their weighing in, particularly someone like Hillier, who is the government's chief military adviser.

In sending Canadian troops to Afghanistan, our government is, de facto, acknowledging that there are very bad people there who need to be killed. Hillier was just expressing things more bluntly than Paul Martin ever would. And that's just dandy. For one thing Canadians lack is a realistic attitude where military matters are concerned. One hopes Hillier's speaking the truth might lead to an understanding from more Canadians of the need for increased military spending and manpower.

On Wednesday, Ernest "Smokey" Smith, Canada's last surviving winner of the Victoria Cross and the only Canadian private to win the honour in World War II, died. During a battle in Italy in October 1944, Smith successfully fought off German troops and tanks by killing the former and firing directly into the latter, hence killing more of the former. One suspects Smith would have taken no umbrage at Hillier's open recognition that we face a detestable enemy who threatens us. One also suspects he would have wholeheartedly agreed with one of Hillier's less colourful comments, but one as true as the others: "We need to take a stand."