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[Riverwind]

And the HRDC budget isn't 400 billion a year. That is what government collects in total.

You are arguing that the HRDC mismanagement was evidence that all government money is misspent. The reality is the vast majority goes where it needs to go and helps a greater number of people at less cost that charity.

You seem to think that 'having a choice' about taxes is some fundamental right. There are many ways that society takes away your choices because the harm to society is greater than the harm of taking away an individual's choice. You don't have a choice to drink and drive or to rob a bank - I assume you don't have a problem with those social constraints.

[Yaro]

So your position is anarchic in nature? Thats interesting, how, in your opinion, do stop the eventuallity of anarchy not turning into fascism? I have always had a fascination with those who prefer the "no system" solution, perhaps having a section of the nation cornered off where no taxs are collected and no services are provided... perhaps one of our islands.

Yaro i never said it is ok to not pay into the system and receive its benefit.

I think you misunderstand me, by living in a society where others alter society to your benifit through acts of generosity that you chose not to take part in you are recieving a benifit.

[for_liberty]

The problem with social services such as national health care is the government then makes decisions for you. Just look at what is happening now with obesiety. Because it is puting a strain on our society the governemnt is going to come in and take choice away from us for the good of the "system" When health care is nationalized the health of the people will inevitably be nationalized.

[Riverwind]

The problem with social services such as national health care is the government then makes decisions for you. Just look at what is happening now with obesiety. Because it is puting a strain on our society the governemnt is going to come in and take choice away from us for the good of the "system"  When  health care is nationalized the health of the people will inevitably be nationalized.

You are assuming that taking choices away from people is the only tool at the government's disposal. The government can do a lot by encouraging healthy choices and, if worst comes to worst, imposing premiums based on willingness to make healthy choices.

[for_liberty]

Had someone suggested in the 70's to ban smoking everywhere even in bars and other private establishments they would have been called a facist. Government just keeps on making decisions for us. And they will always justify it.

[mirror]

Had someone suggested in the 70's to ban smoking everywhere even in bars and other private establishments they would have been called a facist. Government just keeps on making decisions for us. And they will always justify it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Times have changed quite a bit, that's for sure. Probably for the better too. Now people don't have to suffer second hand smoke and the resulting proven negative health consequences. If that's fascism then I guess I'm a fascist.

[stubblejumper]

It sound like for liberty would prefer to live in Zimbabwae.

Just look at any third world country, no social safety net, lots of charties and emmense poverty. Is that what you want Canada to become ?

If you like, I am more then able to take my familyand a gun(or 2) claim some land and subsist from hunting and farming. Just like they did 100 years ago.

But honestly, I like my house,central heat,TV,PC,Car,etc. I really don't want to live in the old west or mad max. And that's the soceity that would eventually exist.

Humans react very selfishly when the chips are on the table and its a free for all. That's why we have come up with 1000s of years of rules.

I hope that helps. If not read some books , right or left wing but history,Dickens,Shakespeare,Rousseau,Hobbes,Locke,Smith,etc.. Learn about the human condition. Come back and then tell us what you think.

[Argus]

The Cons are the party of rural Canada and Calgary.

the majority of Canadians are not rural nor Calgarian.

Get used to it:  It's called Progress.  I know that's an alien concept in Conservative circles, but thankfully, the Cons arn't able to Con Canadians that often.

I always find it odd that people who are the biggest blowhards about their pride in Canada and their ignorant nationalism about Americans are always the first to express how much they hate and despise enormous numbers of Canadians.

I mean, a KKK member only hates Jews and Blacks. That's a pretty small percentage of Canadians compared to people who hate everyone who votes conservative.

[Argus]

Why do you spite out the word socialist like it is some dirty word in Canada?

Because being a socialist means being not only arrogant enough to "know" how your neighbour should live his life, but arrogant enough to demand the government force him to live his life as you want, oh, and to take away almost all his money in order to do it. Socialists are basically Communists who live in a country with too good an education system to convince enough people to help them put Communism in place. Socialists have the same knee-jerk reflexes, though, in their determination to put in place lots and lots and lots of rules and laws and regulations to govern every aspect of everyone's lives, their jealousy of those who make too much money, and their outrage whenever anyone disagrees with their views of the world.

[Argus]

Why don't we just make it so all social services are voluntary. If you would like to use them you shopuld pay for them, if you don't pay you can not use. SOunds fair to me.

Social services exist to help people who can't afford to pay so it does not make sense to apply a user pay 100% model.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A nifty idea, and not a bad one. Except that in reality what you are doing is punishing the productive, succesful segment of society, taking money away from them, and giving it to the non-productive segement of society - whether they are deserving or not.

[Argus]

It sound like for liberty would prefer to live in Zimbabwae.

Just look at any third world country, no social safety net, lots of charties and emmense poverty. Is that what you want Canada to become ?

Singapore would be a better example, and they're not doing so badly. Zimbabwe has busted itself, arguably, in pursuit of social equality - taking productive land out of the hands of those who made it productive, and giving it to unproductive people who did little or nothing with it.

A social safety net is not what controls or reduces poverty. It merely manages poverty and keeps it liveable and acceptable to those suffering under it. Canada had very little in the way of a social safety system in the fifties, but this was a rich country, nonetheless, with probably less poverty than we have now.

[mirror]

Socialists are basically Communists who live in a country with too good an education system to convince enough people to help them put Communism in place

These are inappropriate comments.

[Argus]

Socialists are basically Communists who live in a country with too good an education system to convince enough people to help them put Communism in place

These are inappropriate comments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And as I said, they are outraged whenever anyone has a different opinion. Socialists don't generally support freedom of speech except for Socialists.

[Shady]

Socialists are basically Communists who live in a country with too good an education system to convince enough people to help them put Communism in place

Excellent observation!

These are inappropriate comments

Oh please. It's just a little taste of your own medicine. The left loves to throw around the term fascist when describing conservatives. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Again Argus, great observation!

[for_liberty]

It sound like for liberty would prefer to live in Zimbabwae.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I want government out of my life not more of it. And i don't think it is appropriate to assume i would like to go live under a dictator. i don't assume because you seem to have socialist ideals that you would like to live in Cuba. I wouldn't want anyone to live under a brutal dictator.

[mirror]

Socialists are basically Communists who live in a country with too good an education system to convince enough people to help them put Communism in place

Excellent observation!

These are inappropriate comments

Oh please. It's just a little taste of your own medicine. The left loves to throw around the term fascist when describing conservatives. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Again Argus, great observation!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wrong. These are inappropriate comments for this forum. The moderator has requested that we do not throw around terms like FASCIST, COMMIE, etc. I think we all need to respect his request otherwise things will seriously degenerate.

[for_liberty]

Had someone suggested in the 70's to ban smoking everywhere even in bars and other private establishments they would have been called a facist. Government just keeps on making decisions for us. And they will always justify it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Times have changed quite a bit, that's for sure. Probably for the better too. Now people don't have to suffer second hand smoke and the resulting proven negative health consequences. If that's fascism then I guess I'm a fascist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well if the shoe fits. The problem is 20 years ago no one would want that to happen and now we have people cheering the government on. If you don't want to drink some beers in a bar because of smoke, don't go. It's that simple. I'm afriad of how much more choices the government will make for us in the next 20-30 years.

Do you think the pit bull ban was a good idea?

[mirror]

Any animal that can harm humans is not suitable for urban life. Most dogs belong in the country.

[Yaro]

If you don't want to drink some beers in a bar because of smoke, don't go. It's that simple.

I don't understand this, shouldn't I have the right to punch someone in the face if they are smoking near me? Why should the government interfere with that? What if someone is pooring posion into my water supply? should I just avoid drinking it?

Singapore would be a better example, and they're not doing so badly. Zimbabwe has busted itself, arguably, in pursuit of social equality - taking productive land out of the hands of those who made it productive, and giving it to unproductive people who did little or nothing with it.

WTH are you talking about? The same Singapore that gives you lashs for spitting your gum on the sidewalk?

Because being a socialist means being not only arrogant enough to "know" how your neighbour should live his life, but arrogant enough to demand the government force him to live his life as you want, oh, and to take away almost all his money in order to do it. Socialists are basically Communists who live in a country with too good an education system to convince enough people to help them put Communism in place. Socialists have the same knee-jerk reflexes, though, in their determination to put in place lots and lots and lots of rules and laws and regulations to govern every aspect of everyone's lives, their jealousy of those who make too much money, and their outrage whenever anyone disagrees with their views of the world.

Personally I love free speech, there’s nothing better to separate the loud mouth no nothings from the intelligent productive members’ then free speech. For example, a loud mouth no nothing might say something along the lines of Socialists are basically communists who live in a country with to good an education system to convince enough people to help put communism in place, were as an intelligent productive member might actually do some research and learn that communist countries were among the most highly educated on the planet, and that indeed among first world nations the more conservative the country generally the lower the education level.

Yes free speech is a wonderful thing.

[Canuck E Stan]

Yes free speech is wonderful,

Good point about communism,

" were among the most highly educated on the planet"

Key word here is "were", to bad their intelligence couldn't last much more than a step up from a socialist.

[Yaro]

What communism didn't survive wasn't there education it was the formation of an aristocracy, and I am hardly a communist so please don't put me in the position of defending communism.

[for_liberty]

If you don't want to drink some beers in a bar because of smoke, don't go. It's that simple.

I don't understand this, shouldn't I have the right to punch someone in the face if they are smoking near me? Why should the government interfere with that? What if someone is pooring posion into my water supply? should I just avoid drinking it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You equate violence with someone smoking around you. I don't see how that is the same. If someone is smoking near you or if there is smoking in a bar you can leave. And i would say if someone is pouring poison in your water supply to report it to the proper authorities. It is not the same. You can see someone smoking around you and can move someone pouring poison in your water supply with out you knowing is commiting murder.

[mirror]

You equate violence with someone smoking around you. I don't see how that is the same. If someone is smoking near you or if there is smoking in a bar you can leave. And i would say if someone is pouring poison in your water supply to report it to the proper authorities. It is not the same. You can see someone smoking around you and can move someone pouring poison in your water supply with out you knowing is commiting murder.

Your making a very valid reason why smoking is getting banned pretty much everywhere. People in the 21st century need to be able to go to work, a bar, basically anywhere, and be in a smokefree place, and the smokers need to butt out. Smokefree is now a right in Canada, not a privilege.

[for_liberty]

You equate violence with someone smoking around you. I don't see how that is the same. If someone is smoking near you or if there is smoking in a bar you can leave. And i would say if someone is pouring poison in your water supply to report it to the proper authorities. It is not the same. You can see someone smoking around you and can move someone pouring poison in your water supply with out you knowing is commiting murder.

Your making a very valid reason why smoking is getting banned pretty much everywhere. People in the 21st century need to be able to go to work, a bar, basically anywhere, and be in a smokefree place, and the smokers need to butt out. Smokefree is now a right in Canada, not a privilege.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What by saying you have the right to leave. Listen i am not a smoker and i don't thinkit is a good habit , but if anyone wants to go ahead. It is there body and should feel free to do with it as they please.

[for_liberty]

mirror do you also think it is ok to punch someone is they light up beside you?