Doesn't Bible Say: You Reap What You Sow"?

[mirror]

Blair's Rising Star Runs Into a Treacherous Future

Perhaps the crudest lesson to be drawn was that, in adopting the stance he took after the Sept. 11 attacks, Mr. Blair had finally reaped the bitter harvest of the war on terrorism - so often forecast but never quite seeming real until the explosions boomed across London.

The war in Iraq has been increasingly unpopular here, with taunts that Mr. Blair had become President Bush's poodle. The anger about Iraq led to Mr. Blair's shaky showing in the May elections: a third term with a severely reduced majority. Now, as long predicted and feared, his support of the war appears to have cost British lives at home. Thursday was a day of rallying behind the leader, but there were indications that the bombing could take a political toll.

I don't know what politiical plans Tony Blair had for his future but he can put all of them on hold now. His policies have miserly failed the British people and he should now resign.

[Redneck Yokel]

I don't think this should be placed solely on his shoulders. Though we must accept the consequences of our actions, this does not seem to be a direct consequence of his actions.

Can we blame the attacks of 9-11 on the american populace because they lived a lifestyle which others despised?

[Bakunin]

We should blame it on the lack of quality media that should report and analyse way better whats going on right now in middle east...

A sample, just before the american election, ossama made a video where he explained why when he was young he was an ally of america then why he changed his mind over the time... he explained why there is a war, how to stop it and evrything...he was speaking way more rational than bush. the transcript can be found over the internet.

However, the media did a very bad job about covering this story, if you guys remember, they made it an electoral issue and didn't bother explaining it.

They took one sentence, poorly representative where he was saying its not about bush or kerry. They didn't even bother finishing the sentence or explaining the context...

Now ppl are wondering whats wrong with terrorism like if they where exploding themselve just for fun...

[Argus]

The war in Iraq has been increasingly unpopular here, with taunts that Mr. Blair had become President Bush's poodle. The anger about Iraq led to Mr. Blair's shaky showing in the May elections: a third term with a severely reduced majority. Now, as long predicted and feared, his support of the war appears to have cost British lives at home. Thursday was a day of rallying behind the leader, but there were indications that the bombing could take a political toll.

I don't know what politiical plans Tony Blair had for his future but he can put all of them on hold now. His policies have miserly failed the British people and he should now resign.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Drivel. To begin with - what kind of plans do you think he would have? I mean, he's into his third term as prime minister. Do you expect him to run for king next? His future includes retirement, along with the awarding of numerous board memberships, awards, and a variety of honours.

In addition, Iraq is only one of Blair's numerous policies, and most of them have been very good for Britain, which is why he's into his third majority, duh!

As well, there's no saying this wouldn't have happened anyway. Muslim nut cases are liable to commit bloody violence at the drop of a hat. They revel in blood and death. And the UK has an unfortunate number of such people within its borders.

[Argus]

We should blame it on the lack of quality media that should report and analyse way better whats going on right now in middle east...

A sample, just before the american election, ossama made a video where he explained why when he was young he was an ally of america then why he changed his mind over the time... he explained why there is a war, how to stop it and evrything...he was speaking way more rational than bush. the transcript can be found over the internet.

However, the media did a very bad job about covering this story, if you guys remember, they made it an electoral issue and didn't bother explaining it.

They took one sentence, poorly representative where he was saying its not about bush or kerry. They didn't even bother finishing the sentence or explaining the context...

Now ppl are wondering whats wrong with terrorism like if they where exploding themselve just for fun...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They dismissed bin laden's video for the same reason all thoughtful, intelligent people dismiss the excuses fanatics give for their murderous violence. Because they realized it was nothing more than lies, excuses and attempts at justifying what cannot be justified.

Why were people commiting bloody acts of violence in western nations in the seventies and eighties? The Red Brigades? The Japenese Red Army? The Bader Meinhof Gang? The Irish Republican Army? These were all brutal terrorist groups located in nations which were entirely democratic and free, and where the standard of living was comfortable, to say the least. Yet they all found reason to justify their murders.

Bin laden is no different, except that his justification comes from the Koran, a religious text which was bathed in blood from its inception. And for fantic believers, who actually think they're escaping their miserable life of poverty and unimportance, in a brutally repressive religious environment, and are going to be given several dozen virgins to play with in paradise - well, small wonder they're willing to blow themselves up. That's a pretty darn good trade.

[Cartman]

In addition, Iraq is only one of Blair's numerous policies, and most of them have been very good for Britain, which is why he's into his third majority, duh!

Watch what you say there Argus, the Liberals have been in power here for some time.

[Argus]

In addition, Iraq is only one of Blair's numerous policies, and most of them have been very good for Britain, which is why he's into his third majority, duh!

Watch what you say there Argus, the Liberals have been in power here for some time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Liberals don't have any policies that I'm aware of, and Blair, unlike Chretien, has an effective opposition.

[Riverwind]

The Liberals don't have any policies that I'm aware of, and Blair, unlike Chretien, has an effective opposition.

You don't know much about British politics. Blair is operating in a political environment where he is only person running that is considered a serious contenter for the PMs job because the other parties are either regional protest parties or seen a as bunch of extremists who can't get their act together.

[Bakunin]

They dismissed bin laden's video for the same reason all thoughtful, intelligent people dismiss the excuses fanatics give for their murderous violence. Because they realized it was nothing more than lies, excuses and attempts at justifying what cannot be justified.

Why were people commiting bloody acts of violence in western nations in the seventies and eighties? The Red Brigades? The Japenese Red Army? The Bader Meinhof Gang? The Irish Republican Army? These were all brutal terrorist groups located in nations which were entirely democratic and free, and where the standard of living was comfortable, to say the least. Yet they all found reason to justify their murders.

Bin laden is no different, except that his justification comes from the Koran, a religious text which was bathed in blood from its inception. And for fantic believers, who actually think they're escaping their miserable life of poverty and unimportance, in a brutally repressive religious environment, and are going to be given several dozen virgins to play with in paradise - well, small wonder they're willing to blow themselves up. That's a pretty darn good trade.

Your the perfect sample of what i meant...

In his text, Bin laden didn't use religion to explain his war.

However, most ppl asume thats what he doing cause they have no idea whats going on right now... why ? cause they watch tv and can't find quality information... I bet you didnt know that this all started in lebanon

In quebec we actually have 1 tv channel from france and trust me, they have way better understanding of whats going on over there than canada or usa...

here is 2 citations:

And I will talk to you about the reason for those events, and I will be honest with you about the moments the decision was made so that you can ponder. And I tell you, God only knows, that we never had the intentions to destroy the towers.

But after the injustice was so much and we saw transgressions and the coalition between Americans and the Israelis against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it occurred to my mind that we deal with the towers. And these special events that directly and personally affected me go back to 1982 and what happened when America gave permission for Israel to invade Lebanon. And assistance was given by the American sixth fleet.

During those crucial moments, my mind was thinking about many things that are hard to describe. But they produced a feeling to refuse and reject injustice, and I had determination to punish the transgressors.

And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children.

We found no difficulties in dealing with the Bush administration, because of the similarities of that administration and the regimes in our countries, half of which are run by the military and half of which are run by monarchs. And our experience is vast with them.

And those two kinds are full of arrogance and taking money illegally.

partial transcript at:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/...den.transcript/

full transcript:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C...BC36E87F61F.htm

Thats the kind of thing you'll never heard in the news...

[Argus]

Why were people commiting bloody acts of violence in western nations in the seventies and eighties? The Red Brigades? The Japenese Red Army? The Bader Meinhof Gang? The Irish Republican Army? These were all brutal terrorist groups located in nations which were entirely democratic and free, and where the standard of living was comfortable, to say the least. Yet they all found reason to justify their murders.

Bin laden is no different, except that his justification comes from the Koran, a religious text which was bathed in blood from its inception. And for fantic believers, who actually think they're escaping their miserable life of poverty and unimportance, in a brutally repressive religious environment, and are going to be given several dozen virgins to play with in paradise - well, small wonder they're willing to blow themselves up. That's a pretty darn good trade.

Your the perfect sample of what i meant...

Think so, huh.

In his text, Bin laden didn't use religion to explain his war.

However, most ppl asume thats what he doing cause they have no idea whats going on right now... why ?

Because they're right.

cause they watch tv and can't find quality information... I bet you didnt know that this all started in lebanon

Nonsense. It's all about religion. When bin Laden talks about the "injustices" done to the Lebanese or the Palestinians, that's just a recruiting campaign, it's propaganda. Bin Laden doesn't give a crap about the Palestinians or the Lebanese. If he had his way he'd murder far more Lebanese and Muslims than the Israelis could ever manage short of nukes.

The Israelis have inflamed the Arab world for years. Why? Because they're not Muslims. If they were a Muslim nation they'd be called heros, they'd be looked up to and admired for their strength and abilities. The Syrians slaughtered more people when they put down the Muslim Brotherhod revolt in the city of Hama than the Israelis have, but the whole Muslim world yawned. The Hindus are always going on rioting binges where they'll slaughter 500 Muslims here, 1000 Muslims there, and the Muslim world yawns. Who cares? But let the Isrealis kill a Jew and the Muslim world is pulling its collective beard out in a frenzy of outrage.

In quebec we actually have 1 tv channel from france and trust me, they have way better understanding of whats going on over there than canada or usa...

From the FRENCH!? The French only know a couple of things about the Arabs. One, they have oil. Two, if you suck up enough they'll be nice to you and buy some of your weapons with that oil. The French really ARE surrender monkeys. Some years back some Lebanese group was terrorizing Paris with bombs over some clan member who was arrested for terrorism. The French acted like the French always do. They surrendered. They let the guy go, and then they paid a multi-million dollar bribe, and the bombings stopped. Since then the French have learned to walk small around anyone in a bedsheet, and be ready to kiss ass if one of them glares their way.

We have nothing to learn from the French. NOBODY has anything to learn from the French.

[THELIBERAL]

RE::In addition, Iraq is only one of Blair's numerous policies, and most of them have been very good for Britain, which is why he's into his third majority, duh!

And Blair is a Conservative?

[Black Dog]

Nonsense. It's all about religion. When bin Laden talks about the "injustices" done to the Lebanese or the Palestinians, that's just a recruiting campaign, it's propaganda. Bin Laden doesn't give a crap about the Palestinians or the Lebanese. If he had his way he'd murder far more Lebanese and Muslims than the Israelis could ever manage short of nukes.

Interesting theories, and contradicted by just about everybody with a working knowledge of Bin Laden, his ideaology and methodology.

But then analysis is not your strong suit. But if I need anyone to stir up hatred of Arabs, I'll know who to call.

The Israelis have inflamed the Arab world for years. Why? Because they're not Muslims. If they were a Muslim nation they'd be called heros, they'd be looked up to and admired for their strength and abilities. The Syrians slaughtered more people when they put down the Muslim Brotherhod revolt in the city of Hama than the Israelis have, but the whole Muslim world yawned. The Hindus are always going on rioting binges where they'll slaughter 500 Muslims here, 1000 Muslims there, and the Muslim world yawns. Who cares? But let the Isrealis kill a Jew and the Muslim world is pulling its collective beard out in a frenzy of outrage.

Right, because there's no Muslim/Hindu violence is there? Oh wait.

As for Muslim oppression of Muslims, Al Qaeda believes that the Muslim world is weak and oppressed and dominated by West. which uses things like the establishment of Israel or the setting of Muslim against Muslim in Iraq or Afghanistan as a way of keeping the Muslim world weak. Whichis why the central tenant of Al Qaeda is the destruction of all the corrupt regimes and teh formation of a pan Islamic caliphate.

[PocketRocket]

They dismissed bin laden's video for the same reason all thoughtful, intelligent people dismiss the excuses fanatics give for their murderous violence. Because they realized it was nothing more than lies, excuses and attempts at justifying what cannot be justified. 

Ever hear the old expresion "Know thine enemy"???

How can you know someone's mind if you dismiss out-of-hand anything he says???

Are you some kind of mind-reader that you know whether Bin Laden was lying???

You must be good. That's a damn long way to tap into someone's thoughts.

But, have you ever considered the question "What if he IS speaking the truth"???

I suppose not, judging from your tenor here.

  Why were people commiting bloody acts of violence in western nations in the seventies and eighties? The Red Brigades? The Japenese Red Army? The Bader Meinhof Gang? The Irish Republican Army? These were all brutal terrorist groups located in nations which were entirely democratic and free, and where the standard of living was comfortable, to say the least. Yet they all found reason to justify their murders. 

Yeah, but none of these groups were previously aligned with the victims of their attacks.

Bin laden is no different, except that his justification comes from the Koran, a religious text which was bathed in blood from its inception. 

Have you ever read the Quran??? Have you even ever held a copy in your hands???

You are an intelligent person, and a good debater, but in this you simply mouth words while citing nothing to back them up.

Truth is not truth simply because it is oft repeated in a parrot-like fashion.

  And for fantic believers, who actually think they're escaping their miserable life of poverty and unimportance, in a brutally repressive religious environment, and are going to be given several dozen virgins to play with in paradise - well, small wonder they're willing to blow themselves up. That's a pretty darn good trade. 

And how many of these "fanatics" have you spoken with recently???

You dismiss one person's speculation, which was based on an actual event; Bin Laden's tirade, and then come back with more parroted nonsense about "escaping their miserable life of poverty and unimportance", and, of course the predictable "several dozen virgins to play with in paradise", which we've also heard harped upon in other forums too many times to mention.

(BTW, the actual number of virgins is 72)

What about the guys who flew the hijacked planes on 9/11???

How poverty-stricken were they???

Must have been doing alright to come to the USA, take pilot's training courses, etc.

What about Bin Laden himself???

Rich beyond either your wildest dreams, or mine.

What "poverty" is he seeking to escape???

Why is he the terrorist, while the rest of his family are friends to GW Bush and company???

What made him so different???

These questions must be addressed, and answered, before we can claim to know anything.

Your sweeping generalizations hold no water.

How can you claim to be such an authority on the mind of the Muslim fanatic without citing any backing evidence, and still claim your assertion is more valid than that of someone who actually gives Bin Laden's speech for consideration???

How can you justify the fact that only a few tiny clips of it were used, and used out of context, when it was reported to the public???

You don't know any more about the minds of these fanatical types than I or anyone else here.

Your two posts here were personal speculation stirred in with liberal doses of aggressive language, and simple repetition of the same old tripe we hear from Bush's mouthpieces.

Smoke and mirrors, nothing more.

[Argus]

Nonsense. It's all about religion. When bin Laden talks about the "injustices" done to the Lebanese or the Palestinians, that's just a recruiting campaign, it's propaganda. Bin Laden doesn't give a crap about the Palestinians or the Lebanese. If he had his way he'd murder far more Lebanese and Muslims than the Israelis could ever manage short of nukes.

Interesting theories, and contradicted by just about everybody with a working knowledge of Bin Laden, his ideaology and methodology.

What I mean is that bin Laden, men like bin Laden, do not care what happens to ordinary people. To bring about his ideal of a theocratic state throughout the Arab world bin laden would cheerfully slaughter tens of millions without a qualm. Because it's done in God's name. And so his only sense of outrage over the few piddling deaths involving Israel and the US are that Muslims are being killed by evil infidels. Is bin Laden outraged when the Lebanese kill each other? Hardly. Or when the Syrians kill Lebanese? Nope. So don't try making him sound like he got all teary eyed at the injustices done to the poor people of Palestine and Lebanon. He'd commit the same injustices himself, on a far greater scale, if he could.

The Israelis have inflamed the Arab world for years. Why? Because they're not Muslims. If they were a Muslim nation they'd be called heros, they'd be looked up to and admired for their strength and abilities. The Syrians slaughtered more people when they put down the Muslim Brotherhod revolt in the city of Hama than the Israelis have, but the whole Muslim world yawned. The Hindus are always going on rioting binges where they'll slaughter 500 Muslims here, 1000 Muslims there, and the Muslim world yawns. Who cares? But let the Isrealis kill a Jew and the Muslim world is pulling its collective beard out in a frenzy of outrage.

Right, because there's no Muslim/Hindu violence is there?

When the Hindus tore down a thousand year old Mosque, how many riots were there in the Muslim world? In round figures, please. None. Nobody much cared. Now remember the riots and deaths when it was alleged some American military cop flushed a Koran down the toilet? People died over that. If the people who swarmed over a mosque and tore it apart were Jews there'd have been a bloodbath of rioting throughout the Arab world. There'd have been riot squads outside every Israeli and American embassy. What do we have in front of the Indian embassy? One security guard?

As for Muslim oppression of Muslims, Al Qaeda believes that the Muslim world is weak and oppressed and dominated by West. which uses things like the establishment of Israel or the setting of Muslim against Muslim in Iraq or Afghanistan as a way of keeping the Muslim world weak. Whichis why the central tenant of Al Qaeda is the destruction of all the corrupt regimes and teh formation of a pan Islamic caliphate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which would slaughter millions in Allah's name. Look at Iran. Such an evil regime, the Shah had. Thank heavens a saintly old cleric took over and made things right. Except his secret police were worse than the Shah's, his torture chambers bigger and louder, his oppression even heavier. Al Quaeda has nothing against opression. They just want to be the ones doing the oppressing.

[Argus]

They dismissed bin laden's video for the same reason all thoughtful, intelligent people dismiss the excuses fanatics give for their murderous violence. Because they realized it was nothing more than lies, excuses and attempts at justifying what cannot be justified. 

Ever hear the old expresion "Know thine enemy"???

How can you know someone's mind if you dismiss out-of-hand anything he says??

Does the phrase "actions speak louder than words" mean anything to you?

If I told you that Paul Bernardo wept sadly as he read about teenage girls being mistreated would you believe it?

  Why were people commiting bloody acts of violence in western nations in the seventies and eighties? The Red Brigades? The Japenese Red Army? The Bader Meinhof Gang? The Irish Republican Army? These were all brutal terrorist groups located in nations which were entirely democratic and free, and where the standard of living was comfortable, to say the least. Yet they all found reason to justify their murders. 

Yeah, but none of these groups were previously aligned with the victims of their attacks.

They certainly claimed to be. They were trying, like bin Laden, to create an earthly paradise. Except their earthly paradise would be achieved when the prolotariate threw off the invislble reigns of oppression by the capitalist enemy. Unfortunately, the prolotariate seemed disinclined to do so, and thus needed to be prodded along. Terrorising him was one method, forcing the government to clamp down on liberties - hopefully establishing a tyranny, was the other. With a tyranny in place perhaps they could then prod the lumpen prolotariate to get on with destroying capitalism.

Bin laden is no different, except that his justification comes from the Koran, a religious text which was bathed in blood from its inception. 

Have you ever read the Quran??? Have you even ever held a copy in your hands???

Only portions, and what you might call the highlights. I've never ready Sexy Sally and her Studly Dog Brutus either, but I suspect it wouldn't be proper reading in Church.

You are an intelligent person, and a good debater, but in this you simply mouth words while citing nothing to back them up.

Truth is not truth simply because it is oft repeated in a parrot-like fashion.

The difference between the Koran and the Bible, it has seemed to me, was that Jesus was a wandering preacher who willingly sacrificed himself as a lesson, while Muhahmed was a warrior and a ruler in some fairly nasty times. I can't imagine Jesus telling his people to go out and cut off the heads of those who refuse to believe in him, for example. And I don't think it's a coincidence that virtually all major terrorists are Islamic and fighting for Allah.

How can you claim to be such an authority on the mind of the Muslim fanatic without citing any backing evidence, and still claim your assertion is more valid than that of someone who actually gives Bin Laden's speech for consideration???

Because I'm me. I don't give the self-serving diatribes of dictators, mass-murderers, wacko cultists or goofy hollywood scientology actors a helluva lot of consideration because I don't think they merit any.

What about Bin Laden himself???

Rich beyond either your wildest dreams, or mine.

What "poverty" is he seeking to escape???

We can have that discussion as soon as he straps explosives to himself and runs at an American patrol.

Why is he the terrorist, while the rest of his family are friends to GW Bush and company???

What made him so different???

Why did Paul Bernardo become a rapist while none of his family did? Why did John Wayne Hinkley try to kill Reagan to impress an actress he'd never met? Why do certain people join cults and drink Kool Aid? I'm not looking for deep philosophical meaning as to why certain wackos become wackos. They just are.

[cybercoma]

I apologize for being so brazen, but if I read one more damn comparison to 9/11 I think I'm going to smash my computer monitor into little bits and pieces.

~52 People Died in England.

~1000 Soldiers Died in Afghanistan

~2000 Soldiers Died in Iraq

~3000 People Died in New York.

Can we please, PLEASE stop comparing this little "incident" in England to 9/11.

[Bakunin]

I apologize for being so brazen, but if I read one more damn comparison to 9/11 I think I'm going to smash my computer monitor into little bits and pieces.

~52 People Died in England.

~1000 Soldiers Died in Afghanistan

~2000 Soldiers Died in Iraq

~3000 People Died in New York.

Can we please, PLEASE stop comparing this little "incident" in England to 9/11.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And don't forget...

Reported civilian deaths resulting from the

US-led military intervention in Iraq: 25814

[PocketRocket]

Does the phrase "actions speak louder than words" mean anything to you?

If I told you that Paul Bernardo wept sadly as he read about teenage girls being mistreated would you believe it? 

These people claim to have a cause. Whether you and I disagree with their cause or their methods is irrelevent.

Paul Barnardo can hardly claim to have been raping and killing helpless teenage girls for a cause.

Yeah, but none of these groups were previously aligned with the victims of their attacks.

They certainly claimed to be. They were trying, like bin Laden, to create an earthly paradise. Except their earthly paradise would be achieved when the prolotariate threw off the invislble reigns of oppression by the capitalist enemy. Unfortunately, the prolotariate seemed disinclined to do so, and thus needed to be prodded along. Terrorising him was one method, forcing the government to clamp down on liberties - hopefully establishing a tyranny, was the other. With a tyranny in place perhaps they could then prod the lumpen prolotariate to get on with destroying capitalism.

The IRA???? Trying to achieve an "earthly paradise"???

I seem to recall saying something about "sweeping generalizations" being a disservice.

Bin laden is no different, except that his justification comes from the Koran, a religious text which was bathed in blood from its inception. 

Have you ever read the Quran??? Have you even ever held a copy in your hands???

Only portions, and what you might call the highlights. I've never ready Sexy Sally and her Studly Dog Brutus either, but I suspect it wouldn't be proper reading in Church.

Judging by the title, I would tend to agree. But then again, when the album "Jesus Christ Superstar" first came out back around 1970, it created a furor and was denounced by the Vatican.

Until someone actually LISTENED to it and read the lyrics.

Within a couple years, it was being used in some Catholic schools.

Remember the ruckus that "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" raised when it was first published???

Banned in many parts pf the USA. For what???

[PocketRocket]

(Had to split my reply into 2 parts as the 10-quote-limit was giving me error messages.....)

You are an intelligent person, and a good debater, but in this you simply mouth words while citing nothing to back them up.

Truth is not truth simply because it is oft repeated in a parrot-like fashion.

The difference between the Koran and the Bible, it has seemed to me, was that Jesus was a wandering preacher who willingly sacrificed himself as a lesson, while Muhahmed was a warrior and a ruler in some fairly nasty times. I can't imagine Jesus telling his people to go out and cut off the heads of those who refuse to believe in him, for example.

Jesus, no. God, on the other hand, told Abraham to go out and sacrafice his own son, relenting onoly at the last moment.

But God also (according to Kings, I forget which chapter/verse) also sent bears to maul and kill several children who had made fun of one of His prophet's baldness, calling him "Old bald, thou".

Hell, even Noah's story shows God indiscriminately killing off nearly the entire population of the planet, down to the smallest animal.

The Old Testament is simply fraught with violence, incest, polygamy, child abuse, you name it.

If you consider that any prophet is simply a messenger, and also consider the acts attributed to God/Allah/Jehova etc, shall we blame the messenger for the message???

How can you claim to be such an authority on the mind of the Muslim fanatic without citing any backing evidence, and still claim your assertion is more valid than that of someone who actually gives Bin Laden's speech for consideration???

Because I'm me. I don't give the self-serving diatribes of dictators, mass-murderers, wacko cultists or goofy hollywood scientology actors a helluva lot of consideration because I don't think they merit any.

*chuckle* The scientologists we agree on, at least. But if you look into scientology and its history more closely, you'll find that most of its adherents are a sad, brainwashed bunch.

Have you heard about all the threats to various publications which tried to do stories on the scientology movement???

Even Time pulled the second part of an article they had begun which was to have been spread over two issues.

Scientologists scare me nearly as much as organized terror. Maybe more, because we NEVER hear anything bad about them, probably because of the threats mentioned above, IMHO.

 

What about Bin Laden himself???

Rich beyond either your wildest dreams, or mine.

What "poverty" is he seeking to escape??? 

We can have that discussion as soon as he straps explosives to himself and runs at an American patrol.

Unlikely that he will ever do so. But with the wealth he was born to, why would he bother leading such a movement, when it forces him into exile, living the life that you claim others are seeking to escape???

Why is he the terrorist, while the rest of his family are friends to GW Bush and company???

What made him so different???

Why did Paul Bernardo become a rapist while none of his family did? Why did John Wayne Hinkley try to kill Reagan to impress an actress he'd never met? Why do certain people join cults and drink Kool Aid? I'm not looking for deep philosophical meaning as to why certain wackos become wackos. They just are.

You are citing individual examples of twisted depravity.

These can hardly be applied to a situation in which there are thousands of people willing to fight and die for what they feel is a valid cause

[Argus]

(Had to split my reply into 2 parts as the 10-quote-limit was giving me error messages.....)

Yes, I have found this annoying, as well, the last couple of weeks, and I had to delete some of the stuff in your earlier post I had addressed in order to satisfy the arbitrary quote limit.

I can't imagine Jesus telling his people to go out and cut off the heads of those who refuse to believe in him, for example.

Jesus, no. God, on the other hand, told Abraham to go out and sacrafice his own son, relenting onoly at the last moment.

But God also (according to Kings, I forget which chapter/verse) also sent bears to maul and kill several children who had made fun of one of His prophet's baldness, calling him "Old bald, thou".

Never read that one. I admit that the old testament contains a lot of stuff showing how intolerent and violent the Almighty can be, as I posted on another thread, think Sodom and Gomorah, fire and brimstone. The thing is, though, that Christians are supposed to model themselves after Christ, Jesus Christ, and while the old testament forms a part of the teachings of the Christian churches, it is Christ's messages which they focus on, and most of Christ's messages focus on brotherhood, tolerance, peace, and helping each other. Now I'll certainly agree that most Christian Churches have done an imperfect job of emulating that, but what if Jesus was a warrior king instead? Just as the Christian church focuses on Christ so to do the Muslims focus on Muhammed, and this is a guy who sent his people to collect the heads of non believers and bring them to him. The Muslims have an entire frame of law and government, which is not something Jesus ever bothered with. Can you imagine Jesus penning a law that thieves should have their hands cut off for the first offence?

You say I should have read the Koran, and only then would I know that it is not so bloodthirsty a document. Is this logical? On the surface. But one must presume all these wackos blowing themselves up have read it. Certainly the people in charge of Iran, their grand ayatolahs and the like, have read it backwards, forwards, upside down and sideways. They still feel there's nothing wrong with stoning 13 year old girls to death because they were raped. And didn't the loser, the guy who was supposed to be the MODERATE! in the recent election call for using nuclear weapons on the Israelis because, even though millions and millions of Muslims would die in the retaliation, the Arab world would survive but Israel wouldn't? If we look at places like Iran and Saudi Arabia and Sudan which are being run according to their clerics' interpretation of the Koran do we see lands of peace, brotherhood and enlightenment?

Did the Taliban read the Koran?

So maybe the real difference between us and them is that while the old testament contains some bloodthirsty deeds, we've grown beyond literal interpretation and have looked more to Jesus' teaching on peace and forgiveness while the Muslim world still clings to the literal word of a ruler from centuries back, refusing to move their societies forward into the modern world.

*chuckle* The scientologists we agree on, at least. But if you look into scientology and its history more closely, you'll find that most of its adherents are a sad, brainwashed bunch.

Have you heard about all the threats to various publications which tried to do stories on the scientology movement???

Scientologists are wacked. It isn't merely their bizarre beliefs but the way they behave which sets their "religion" to the level of a cult. I find it wierd in the extreme that a middle aged guy like Tom Cruise can drag very young girls into his temple for multi hour long sessions with the "elders" where they try to convince them to join their cult, and then gets cheered by the multitudes at his latest movie. He's little better than a child molester.

What about Bin Laden himself???

Rich beyond either your wildest dreams, or mine.

What "poverty" is he seeking to escape??? 

We can have that discussion as soon as he straps explosives to himself and runs at an American patrol.

Unlikely that he will ever do so. But with the wealth he was born to, why would he bother leading such a movement, when it forces him into exile, living the life that you claim others are seeking to escape???

Rich men, having no particular need to work for a living, often have causes they embrace and put money into. I doubt bin Laden imagined he'd end up spending the remaining days of his life in a cave, or that he'd have embraced his cause to the extent he did if he had the the foreknowledge of how it would end up.

What made him so different???

Why did Paul Bernardo become a rapist while none of his family did? Why did John Wayne Hinkley try to kill Reagan to impress an actress he'd never met? Why do certain people join cults and drink Kool Aid? I'm not looking for deep philosophical meaning as to why certain wackos become wackos. They just are.

You are citing individual examples of twisted depravity.

These can hardly be applied to a situation in which there are thousands of people willing to fight and die for what they feel is a valid cause

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How many people drank Kool-aid? How many people embrace Scientology? How many are in the Moonies or shave their heads and play tambourines in the airports? And that's in the educated, sophisticated West. It's no surprise these wackos mostly come from the third world, where in some places they still burn witches at the stake because they've soured the milk and damaged the crops.