Is Rove It?

[Guest eureka]

What has the "Veterans for Peace" citation to do with the US Constitution? Look at the Congressional Bill that gave Bush authority to go to war in Iraq and see how he jumped the gun.

I think we have all looked at this a lot. I also think that if you look back at the thread on Iraq, you will find that any nattering about the UN resolutions giving authority is just that, nattering. The UN Resolutions explicitly forbade action without explicit approval.

Look at the thread since I have no desire to go through all that again.

I happen to agree with all the international jurists and lawyers - includng American experts - who say the Coalition of the willing (what a name) did not have legal authority to invade Iraq. There is not the slightest doubt about that now.

[newbie]

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[BHS]

What has the "Veterans for Peace" citation to do with the US Constitution? Look at the Congressional Bill that gave Bush authority to go to war in Iraq and see how he jumped the gun.

I think we have all looked at this a lot. I also think that if you look back at the thread on Iraq, you will find that any nattering about the UN resolutions giving authority is just that, nattering. The UN Resolutions explicitly forbade action without explicit approval.

Look at the thread since I have no desire to go through all that again.

I happen to agree with all the international jurists and lawyers - includng American experts - who say the Coalition of the willing (what a name) did not have legal authority to invade Iraq. There is not the slightest doubt about that now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, which were those other countries that made the effort to obtain legal authority again? That little questions seems to have slipped through your righteous net.

[BHS]

What has the "Veterans for Peace" citation to do with the US Constitution? Look at the Congressional Bill that gave Bush authority to go to war in Iraq and see how he jumped the gun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You seem to have missed my point. Not since 1941 has the US ever formally declared war on another country. They don't do it any more. Instead, both parties have tacitly agreed to let the sitting president send in troops as he or she sees fit. Congress maintains control of the situation by dint of their power to reign in defense spending.

With the formal declaration of war proviso out of the way and ignored, a Congressional bill approving the war is a nice gesture but is not legally necessary.

Case in point: Congress specifically forbade Clinton from sending the US armed forces into Kosovo, but he went ahead and did it anyway, without political or legal repercussions.

[newbie]

Case in point: Congress specifically forbade Clinton from sending the US armed forces into Kosovo, but he went ahead and did it anyway, without political or legal repercussions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but I believe he probably saved 1,000,000 refugees from ethnic cleansing in the process.

From http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...5/ai_101861609:

"In Kosovo...the Clinton administration worked through NATO, keeping its shaky coalition together in the Western alliance's first war. Clinton's war brought Europe and America closer together and invested NATO and trans-Atlantic relations with a renewed sense of purpose. That unity of purpose proved invaluable in post-war Kosovo, where U.S. and European troops secured the peace and U.N. administrators sponsored a difficult, but so far reasonably successful, transition to democracy."

Seems to me it was worth it.

[BHS]

Case in point: Congress specifically forbade Clinton from sending the US armed forces into Kosovo, but he went ahead and did it anyway, without political or legal repercussions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but I believe he probably saved 1,000,000 refugees from ethnic cleansing in the process.

From http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...5/ai_101861609:

"In Kosovo...the Clinton administration worked through NATO, keeping its shaky coalition together in the Western alliance's first war. Clinton's war brought Europe and America closer together and invested NATO and trans-Atlantic relations with a renewed sense of purpose. That unity of purpose proved invaluable in post-war Kosovo, where U.S. and European troops secured the peace and U.N. administrators sponsored a difficult, but so far reasonably successful, transition to democracy."

Seems to me it was worth it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say that it wasn't, though that's a whole different argument that we should maybe start a thread for (though it's no doubt been argued to death). The Kosovo example was only meant to bolster my ongoing argument with eureka, not pass judgement on the legitimacy of that war.

[newbie]

BHS, after re-reading I guess I shouldn't have jumped in. And yes, it is a different argument than the Karl Rove thing. Sorry for hijacking.

[BHS]

BHS, after re-reading I guess I shouldn't have jumped in. And yes, it is a different argument than the Karl Rove thing. Sorry for hijacking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not a problem. Did you want to start a different thread? PM me if you do and I'll jump in.

[Guest eureka]

Kosovo was an illegal invasion. It was not, however, the US acting in defguance of the UN and other nations. It was an intervention by NATO.

That brings an entirely different situation that I, and I am sure Black Dog, brought up, in that we may have to rethink what is agression. It will never, however, be legitimate for one nation to take an international affair into its own hands.

Again, I suggest that you look at the Bill passed by the US Congress that authorized Bush to invade Iraq in accordance with UN Resolutions. Bush's action was illegitimate and has brought impeachment applocations. It is also still before the US Courts where, of course, Bush will receive the appropriate amount of Whitewash

.

So, which were those other countries that made the effort to obtain legal authority again? That little questions seems to have slipped through your righteous net.

Is this supposed to mean something? Did you sleep through the UN procedings?

There is not the slightest question that the President of the US needs Congressional approval and permission to go to war. There has not been a situation since 1941 that required a formal declaration of war. Not even Vietnam.

There many covert acts and many wars by proxy. They just serve to show how far the USA has degenerated in its national morality.

[Shakeyhands]

Well now.. let the semantics begin...

Bush qualifies vow to fire officials over CIA leak

To sack anyone `who committed crime'

Move likely lets Rove, Libby off hook

TIM HARPER

WASHINGTON BUREAU

WASHINGTON—U.S. President George W. Bush has moved the goalposts back in the ongoing CIA leak controversy enveloping his administration, providing greater cover for his deputy chief of staff, Karl Rove.

Yesterday, Bush said he would fire any administration official "who committed a crime," a quantum leap from his previous vows to oust anyone who leaked classified information.

The earlier statements from Bush came after official denials that Rove or Lewis (Scooter) Libby, the chief of staff to U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney, had anything to do with leaking the name of CIA agent Valerie Plame, the spouse of former ambassador Joseph Wilson, a leading critic of the Bush war in Iraq.

It is now known that both Rove, the president's trusted political guru, and Libby did discuss Plame with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper who testified last week before a grand jury probing the leak.

In this week's Time, Cooper writes that neither man named Plame, but did provide information about her and her work.

Bush has now provided more breathing room for Rove and Libby because, although it is illegal to disclose the identity of a covert agent in the United States, the burden of proof is high and a conviction is difficult to obtain.

A prosecutor would have to prove intent to break government policy and the agent would have to be working overseas for the U.S. government.

I do hope that this 'flip flop' further exposes how this administration truley works...

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentSe...ol=968350060724

[mirror]

Too bad the Democrats had such a dud of a candidate in John Kerry in the last election.

I think though that the American people are finally beginning to catch on:

Poll Shows Bush's Credibility Slipping

[mirror]

Sounds like justice system in some ways is alive and well in the USA. Sure sounds like Rove is hooped to me. I wonder who else is going down with him:

Plame's Identity Marked As Secret

Rove: Not Entirely Forgotten

[mirror]

Is the author of this article suggesting that Rove might be executed? I don't believe in capital punishment by-the-way:

Deadly repercussions

It is not a stretch to imagine that countless CIA contacts around the world have been hauled into secret interrogation rooms and asked some very pointed questions. Valuable sources of intelligence, intended to provide information to policymakers in order to prevent the next 9/11, probably have been compromised. This is, after all, nuclear espionage, for which even the United States has executed people.

One can hope that the special counsel is only chasing a perjurious executive branch staffer, but it's our collective national security that has been permanently damaged.

[Black Dog]

I do have to wonder if, as some here have alleged, Plame was not an undercover operative, why hasn't that been the focus of the counter attack? Surelyu that simple "fact" would be enough to stop the grand jury investigation. Becasue if her identity was not protected, then no foul was committed. That doesn't seem to be the case:

Harlow, the former CIA spokesman, said in an interview yesterday that he testified last year before a grand jury about conversations he had with Novak at least three days before the column was published. He said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.

Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified.

Link.

[mirror]

I think the whole grand jury investigation is about who revealed classified information about Plame's identity. And the net seems to be getting bigger and bigger with each passing day. Where it is going to stop, nobody outside of the special counsel's office really knows.

[BHS]

It's a bit late in posting, but I only just now discovered this article:

David Corn article

It appears there's credible evidence that the person who outed Valerie Plame is none other than Joe Wilson himself. But like you say, mirror: who gets caught up in the nets of this investigation, only time and the special counsel's office will tell.

[Nemo]

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[BHS]

Karl Rove is getting no more than his just deserts for being a scandalmonger.  It is a mark of a mean disposition to deal in gossip or scandal; and such a rabid backbiter as Rove can hardly hope to escape getting kicked for behaving like a vicious dog.  What he did to retired diplomat Joseph Wilson and his wife (as he did to Senator John McCain and his wife) was contemptible if not criminal.  The great and the good are not little or mean in their affairs; nor will lions stir from their lair for a hyena being eaten by jackals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you even read the article I posted? I'm guessing no, because there's pretty good evidence that the big rumour monger is Joe Wilson himself.

Karl Rove is a political operative, and as such he speaks with the press on a daily basis. It's his job to keep abreast of current news stories and to spin the adminstration's take on the events of the day, and there's no better way to do that than to converse with top columnists and newspeople. Every administration has people like this. You make it sound like Rove is the first guy to have a quiet conversation with reporters. Calling him "rabid" is just plain silly and obviously partisan.

Your last line sounds like a quote from Churchill - am I right? I have no idea what you're trying to say by including it in your post. That Rove is neither great nor good? That Rove should be more like a lion? That Joe Wilson is a lion (please) that looks down his nose in disdain as hyena Rove is being eaten by the jackal press? Help me out here.

[Nemo]

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[BHS]

The Cato Institute article is nothing more than spin off the Republican "talking points" (viz. lies spread to conceal the truth).  It's Karl Rove's job in the White House to make up talking points for the Administration.  No doubt, President Bush will award him the Medal of Freedom for doing such a good job.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, it's a lie that the first article to be published confirming that Valerie Plame was a covert agent was the article by David Corn, who wrote the article having clearly spoken to Joe Wilson on the matter? If that's a lie, what then is the truth?

[Nemo]

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[BHS]

Another Karl Rove tactic:  When caught in a lie, deny it; when confronted by the truth, call it a lie.  (People will always believe the last lie they hear.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Um, what the hell are you talking about?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear BHS,

It appears there's credible evidence that the person who outed Valerie Plame is none other than Joe Wilson himself

You actually don't seem like a moron. (I read the link, utter garbage, kindergarten-level logic).

[BHS]

Dear BHS,

It appears there's credible evidence that the person who outed Valerie Plame is none other than Joe Wilson himself

You actually don't seem like a moron. (I read the link, utter garbage, kindergarten-level logic).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would be really nice if you could provide a little more of an argument than "You actually don't seem like a moron" and "Kindergarten-level logic". I don't see how logic comes in to it actually - it's a pretty straight forward re-telling of the facts of the timeline in the Plame outing case. When you can come up with something better than sputtered ad hominem attacks on myself and the Clifford May I'd love to hear it.

[Nemo]

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