Anti Americanism and what is Canada ?

[Craig Read]

Good to see that Bush snubbed Canada.

John Howard is invited to his ranch, the day before he was to visit Canada.

Canadian firms are excluded from Iraqi reconstruction.

There is a backlash against Canadian products in the USA.

I heard that a Canadian radio station in Florida was taken off the air.

Good for the Americans, make the cowardly and free riding pay.

[Moderate Centrist]

"Chretien maintains he has principles ?

Principles of what ?

Cowardice, free loading, racism, hypocrisy ?

Is this what Canada stands for ?"

Your statement can equally be applied to the States. Agreed?

What does racism have to do with Chretien's not going to meet Bush?

[FastNed]

Bill, to put it politely, No, Craig's statements can't be equally applied to the States. Not hardly.

Cowardly & Free loading - that's really your opinion of our people in Iraq?

Hypocrits - Really, we just ceased the major portion of combat ops the other day and we have pacification, terrorist and civilian security issues on the table which have a higher priority than finding where the WMD are located. Iraq is the size of California +/or B.C. - but if we have to dig it up foot by foot, we'll find where they are stashed.

Racist - yup, everyone has seen the pictures of those poor, emaciated, undernurished & underarmed Black Marines serving in Iraq but excuse me if I duck for cover when you tell them that.

We have our problems, Bill, but we are damned candid about them - would that Canada was as forthright! Perhaps you should just change the name to "French Canada".

Would the last Canadian to leave Canada turn out the lights on the French Canadians, please!

[Craig Read]

Chretien maintains he has principles ?

Principles of what ?

Cowardice, free loading, racism, hypocrisy ?

Is this what Canada stands for ?

[firstascent]

Hello Ned,

What the heck are you talking about?

You are addressing me; I never posted here until just now.

You must be on another train of thought. Or maybe some of that high grade BC import veggy action I've heard so much about.

[Greg]

Whoa, Bill.

Tone done the "high grade BC import veggy action," talk. That statement is of the flaming type we don't allow here.

If Ned misquoted you or has posted to the wrong thread, then politely point out that.

Even in jest, that statement isn't appropriate.

[Moderate Centrist]

Hi Bill and Greg... and you too Ned,

I think Ned was addressing me here and typed Bill's name by mistake. At least I hope he was cause I'm about to reply to him here.

I think the point I was trying to make again was that Craig’s comments were very generalized. I simply find it amusing that the complaints against Canada on this discussion board are the exact same ones you’ll hear about the United States… from Americans.

I do not believe any of those things about the States. Neither do I believe them about Canada.

[FastNed]

Bill, I was responding to Moderate and somehow had a "senior" moment and typed in "Bill" instead - my bad. Sorry, inadvertent slip of the tongue !

[firstascent]

Well gosh I’m sorry. I just heard that Americans where really putting demand on that stuff and, well, you never know, Ned might have run into some.

But I am sorry if it was found to be offensive. I meant it as light humour.

Sorry Ned!

[Craig Read]

Canada has joined the French-Russian - Post modern UNO group.

The repercussions of this will be enormous.

I love the fact that Bush cancelled his trip here, and then invited Howard.

I also enjoy hearing that US firms and consumers are boycotting Canadian products.

There should be no free rides in life.

Canada is a free loading socialist pathology. In 20 years it will be bankrupt. And then is the chest beating 'I am Canadian' going to be in vogue ?

I am Canadian - is that something to be proud of?

Not really. Proud to be a socialist statist high tax high spend nation with no military, light security and a reverse dicrimination immigration policy and racist anti-americanism that signs something as bizarre as Kyoto ?

If that makes you proud, you are sick.

[Moderate Centrist]

Hi Craig,

Please explain where racism comes into this discussion. You lost me.

[Lost in Manitoba]

How long does it take a person to die from starvation or privation? How long before your body gives out from using crack/coke/heroin? Probably takes a while, right? Is being gassed any more painful than starving to death, any more horrifying than watching your children starve because you can't find a job to make some money to by some food to feed them or put a roof over their heads?

You know what's scary? It's preventable. But the Powers That Be doesn't care about its own citizens. Strange that they care about the Iraqui people so much, i mean, they aren't even taxpayers.

[Ronda]

I really doubt that the US and/or Britain (or Canada) is letting its children starve to death. Show me some examples. You also cite drug use as being a killer in the US/Britain/Canada. Where's personal responsibility??? You're completely off the mark if you equate a government failing to stop someone from (by their own free will) overdosing on crack to someone being rounded up and gassed by their government. You need a vacation to Iraq if you think those things are even in the same league.

[firstascent]

Hello Lost in Manitoba,

Hahaha, that was a great post! It’s true, some think of weapons and destruction as coming only from a military aspect or a belligerent government; while under our very noses, economic weapons are dropped every day.

So then, what has been the toll? Think of the man who has not only lost his job, and now his family, but sits alone desperate and depressed. What suffering goes unnoticed here in our own country while others decide what colour the second Mercedes should be? Are our children getting enough? Do we have safe places for them to grow up? Are the families of this nation or the United States any better off for the war in Iraq? How does it feed the suffering? How does it encourage the discouraged?

That was a great post Manitoba.

[Hugo]

Bill,

I believe you are just being inflammatory now. I don't think any sane man could complain about how the government has failed the unemployed and depressed of the USA, while he condones the perpetuation of the habitual torture, rape and execution of countless innocent Iraqis that has gone on every day for over 20 years.

Either you are trying to start arguments, or you genuinely are a racist, a bigot, a Nazi apologist and a Ba'athist. I sincerely hope that it is the former.

[firstascent]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugo:

Bill,

I believe you are just being inflammatory now. I don't think any sane man could complain about how the government has failed the unemployed and depressed of the USA, while he condones the perpetuation of the habitual torture, rape and execution of countless innocent Iraqis that has gone on every day for over 20 years.

Either you are trying to start arguments, or you genuinely are a racist, a bigot, a Nazi apologist and a Ba'athist. I sincerely hope that it is the former.

---

What ... are you talking? I was commending the person on their post and commenting on its merit.

You have issues Hugo! Drop the Nazi crap and get a life.

[Hugo]

I am quite amazed that you really believe that the US treats its citizens worse than Saddam Hussein treats his. That's all I will say.

[FastNed]

Say Lost, I hope you are not talking about your own life but if any part of that is personal, screw the government, contact the nearest Church or two or three and tell them you need help. Or your children need help!

Both of our countries have a vast number of people willing to help someone having a bad spell and don't need government permission to give it.

[firstascent]

quote:

---

Originally posted by FastNed:

Say Lost, I hope you are not talking about your own life but if any part of that is personal, screw the government, contact the nearest Church or two or three and tell them you need help. Or your children need help!

Both of our countries have a vast number of people willing to help someone having a bad spell and don't need government permission to give it.

---

Hey Ned,

I think most are missing the point of the post. If I'm wrong, I'm sure Lost will correct me.

I have followed this ideology as a study and it does have merit. It comes from Marx. There is a form of violence in capitalism that is over looked by most in the shadow or war. The very economy of capitalism is in a form a warfare against the working class. Again, this is still held to be true by many, that speculators and traders tend to have damaging effects on peoples lives both financially and otherwise. I have an empathetic mood to this situation.

Am I wrong Lost?

[Ronda]

Again, Bill thinks we've all missed the brilliant metaphor when in reality we just think it's bunk.

Yes, dear, we've all heard of Marx - thanks, though.

Capitalist gov't is to poor people as Saddam Hussein is to gassed Kurds...

is about as relevant as

Augusta National Golf Club is to American women as the Taliban is to Afghan women.

Do you understand the parallel I'm making and how it points out the main flaw of the original point that you so admire? I hate to be so condescending, Bill, but, hey... when in Rome.

quote

...this is still held to be true by many...

Oh, it sure is... but it's still bunk.

Did you notice that when the Berlin wall came down, the traffic was all one way?

[Lost in Manitoba]

Hey,

I'm not that deep, but some of you get the point and some just rant and accuse others.

The starvation stats I don't have... but have you ever driven in urbanized America and not seen the poor, the starving, or the huddled masses? If not,get of the freeway and drive around the underpasses or the ghettos. Lock your doors first, and never drive under the speed limit. Look at the sheer poverty and think 'wow. it's so great that the US of A spends more on millitary than the rest of the world combined.'

[Ronda]

quote

but have you ever driven in urbanized America and not seen the poor, the starving, or the huddled masses? ...'wow. it's so great that the US of A spends more on millitary than the rest of the world combined

1) Have you ever driven in any urbanized area of any country in the world and NOT seen the poor, huddled masses?

2) The US of A also spends more on foreign aid than the rest of the world combined.

3) The actual dollar figure that the US spends on military is not terribly relevant because it also has the largest economy to draw from.

4) Just a note that in almost every other country in the world, the standard of living is lower and the percentage of "starving" poor people is higher.

The capitalist system is not perfect but it seems to be doing better than the alternatives. It was eventually evident that "the Worker's paradise" was anything but. As a wise man once said, "Da proof is da proof..."

I do understand your little dig but I've always thought that the idea that a capitalist system wages a war on poor people (as if they're a race unto themselves or something?) was ridiculous. It becomes much more so when you're comparing a capitalist government to a paranoid dictator who routinely murders critics in cold blood.

[Hugo]

quote

it's so great that the US of A spends more on millitary than the rest of the world combined.

Few points for your information:

The USA is indeed the largest military spender in the world. It spends $399.1bn per year. The second largest is Russia. It spends $65bn per year.

The Russian economy is worth $1.27 trillion annually. The US economy is worth $9.8 trillion annually. The US spends 4% of its GDP on the military, whereas Russia spends a little over 5%.

The USA is not a particularly big spender in relative terms. It spends a decent enough sum in comparison to the economy size. The USSR spent about $330bn on the military in 1988, a far, far greater percentage of the Soviet economy.

The fact you quote is actually correct but you need to look at the big picture.

[Lost in Manitoba]

Don't let me come off as a commie, or a supporter of dictators. I am a capitalist in a capitalist society. I work to support myself. I spend my money on hockey, movies, etc. My money is my own. I don't regularly volunteer or donate. I don't have all the answers; hell, I don't really have any. Hugo, you are right of course about GNP. My thought was only this, people should look after their own affairs before meddling into the affairs of others. Look after your own family first.

I do care about the people in countries like Iraq. No one should be tortured or killed by tyrants. That i should have to say this is stupid. It should be ingrained in every human being that this is not acceptable.

What I do have a problem with is this, the reasons for the war. Do I think it is about oil? Not really, considering there are other sources, domestic and foriegn, that are much more friendly. I think, me singular voice joe citizen, its about power and control. Does the end justify the means? I think that the US is using the people of Iraq as a means to an end, namely control of a mideast country. And with that, I am disgusted. Never should a person be used as a means to an end. The end should be the person, namely the liberation of the person. If the US would hand over Iraq to a coalition of against-the-war peacekeeping forces, and just walked away without looking for profit or political gain, well then, I think they really would be the good guys. But as is...

I wonder sometimes, did Osama and his boys wake up one day, look at a map and say 'hell, this united states may be a good place to attack' with no reason whatsoever? Or did they do it because some foriegn power came into their culture and crudely and rudely try to enforce their policies? Could this latest war cause a terrorist act in the years to come?

ps. Before some idiot replies, no I don't support terrorists, no I'm not a nazi, and neither do I support the taliban.

[FastNed]

Hello Lost - glad the points you're raising are rhetorical, not personal.

Now about those poor huddled masses in America. The economic "poor" are a constantly changing population in flux. Statistically, many of them are young adults just starting out while others are there due to sudden adverse changes in their lives. There appears to be a three to five year cycle in effect with this group and the majority move out and up within that period. Of those that don't, the cynic in me says that some people are born loosers while the optomist insists we must do more. But there are a vast number of people and organizations focused on these people and solutions do not appear to come from the amount of money involved. A substantial number of these people have been failed by our educational system and the remedy to this type of poverty appears to be education and the time involved to escape poverty equates to the learning curve. What has happened to education in both of our Countries?

Of those that are left "huddled" under the overpass, the majority are either the mentally ill or addicts, of one flavor or another. The situation with those having a mental illness is a real catch-22; they can not be institutionalized and forced to take medication which controls or alleviates their problem as the ACLU and others have litigated that this type of treatment violates their "Civil Rights". Outpatient programs which spend 60,000 to 80,000 per year, per individual have been a failure because of this "forced medication" issue. No one has a solution, do you?

As to the addicts, after ten years of voluntary work, I can state that there is NO program or approach which works consistently with more than fifteen or twenty percent of this population and of those that get clean, the same small percentage stays that way. So long term (three to five years), the success rate is at best about four percent. Again, no one has found a solution.

Now as to these being a problem of "capitalism", I suggest you look at the alcohol and (now) drug problems of the former Soviet Union and present day Russia. These problems appear to be part of the human condition, not of our economic systems.