Anti Americanism and what is Canada ?

[Hugo]

I agree with Ned fully. The problem is not the poor, the workers and the masses but the drop-outs and those who have, even only subconsciously, rejected the values of the society they are in. Since you cannot please 100% of people 100% of time, in any system there are going to be those who fall or jump through the cracks.

The real proof of the greater justice and good of the capitalist system is that for poor, working people who attempt to conform to society and the "system", capitalism gives them far greater benefits. They earn more, have a higher standard of living and much greater opportunity for advancement. If one compares the former East and West Germanies it becomes clear which system has actually given greater benefit to its people.

The problems of homelessness, drug abuse and crime are personal issues, not societal issues. Society has not failed these people, they have failed themselves. The system exists that the vast majority are able to prosper.

[firstascent]

Thank you for your post Lost, I liked it. I appreciate that you are not a communist or whatever other foul label some might conjure up, but there ironically is a lot more to your post than you may have imagined at first glance and I do think it is worthy of deeper consideration.

Let me say, when I first posted here before Christmas, I made some comments regarding the occupation of a country once known as Palestine to help shine some light on the cause of suicide bombing, and was hastily labeled anti Semitic.

I questioned the current direction of the US administration (as 50% or more Americans were doing at the time) and was painted with the anti-American brush.

I offered a peaceful and creative solution (less costly in dollars and human lives to the Iraqi situation) and was told I supported Saddam.

I offered the echo of most Arabs in helping some to understand why 9/11 happened and was accused of being ignorant and supporting terrorism.

I mentioned that the Iraqi thing does have a link to oil, and was called a peace-nik and a hippie and told I knew nothing about the oil. Doesn’t matter that I do know about oil and how it is brought to the surface, how it is transported soon by US shipping, how royalties work (payable soon to engineering firms from the US and Britain), etc, etc.

I spent over thirty years researching the period of time leading up to and including the Second World War. I was told I have no knowledge of this period because I didn’t bore the heck out of everyone with a detailed account of The Kingdom of Poland’s transformation to the Vistula Province and back to Poland again after the end of the First World War. Germans who were later exposed to reprisals from Polish civilians and authorities aren’t worth the mention; if you do then you become a Nazi apologist, revisionist and holocaust denier – even though I’ve interviewed several different German survivors from that region.

Well Lost, it’s that kind of group: stridently pro-war. But it is still lots of fun to rattle their cages. Or you could just put the blinders on and agree with everything they tell you.

I really did like your post though, it was written in a simple way, but it holds s stunning amount of concern for the unregarded list of political priorities.

[Ronda]

quote

I offered a peaceful and creative solution (less costly in dollars and human lives to the Iraqi situation) and was told I supported Saddam.

Ok, forgive me, I don't remember that. I have asked you numerous times what that "solution" would be and you told me that I wasn't interested since I was basically, too much of a hawk to care.

I also pointed out on another thread why anti-war seems anti-American and got no reply from you.

I was not calling Lost a commie, either. My original point was that I didn't think the analogy about "economic weapons" used against US citizens was well placed against "being gassed". Then you brought up Marxist theory and how you were empathetic towards it for the very reason that capitalism is "warfare against the working class" so I responded to that.

As I've said before, it really seems to me that you are the one who writes off everyone on this board (except lost and maybe mod) as being "stridently pro-war", not to mention ignorant, bloodthirsty, closed-minded and miles below yourself intellectually. It seems to me that every time I, or anyone else for that matter, disagrees with you, you respond with condescension or insults. Just because someone disagrees with you (for the nth time) doesn't mean they're ignorant, stupid, closed-minded or of course, excited to watch other people get killed.

[Lost in Manitoba]

All of the comments on this board are really good, even if they don't align with my bias and preconcieved notions. You all seem to be informed and educated, or very good at BS'ng.

Just actually read the header,

Anti Americanism and what is Canada ?

I guess I just randomly selected this topic, but here's my opinion, for what its worth. I'm not anti-American, I am anti-Right Wing Politics, either in the guise of the Republican party or the PC/Alliance parties. When people spout off anti-American remarks, I truly believe its the policies and attitudes they get frustrated with, and i agree and wholeheartedly 'hate those *******s'.

As for what is Canada? I think maybe we are a country trying to make it a habitable place for any culture or group that wish to live here. We as a country are very introspective, we are always worried about stepping on toes or being repressive to ones beliefs. We fear coming off as racists, as sexists, xenophobes, as greedy, as arrogant, as... well, you name it and were afraid of doing it and being disliked by anyone. It almost seems we have a national guilty conscience, and we continually try to make up for past misdeeds. And everyone knows guilt is a powerful motivator.

Anyway, thats my take. Go back to the debate already in progress.

[acadie]

Right on Crai Gread it's bout time nort of the 49th realised who holds their hand & butters the bread.One day we may awake & appreciate our defenders.

[Craig Read]

If the best you can boast about is 'being nice', then i suggest you take a back pack and travel a little more. Every country i have been, even in the third world boasts of its culture, its people and its humanity. Being nice is about as differentiating as having 2 legs.

If that is all that is going on north of the 49th then you don't have much defining you as a Canadian.

Unless of course you count the breathless rush to post modernism - which means big government, UNO taxes, UNO regulations, no military, no security -- and the incredible idea that history, politics, cultural differences and societal differences as well as military power don't matter.

Sounds to me like Alice in Wonderland, not a vibrant, democratic, wealthy and moral country.

Nothing moral about coercive socialism and its attendant nonsense. Isn't Canada after all just an EU light version of post modern socialist blabbertrap ?

[FastNed]

How does one say: "eat humble pie" in French?

It appears that M. Chretien must eat this dish quickly as events force him to request assistance from those "American B@stards".

Ontario Public Health Officials have requested assistance from the US CDC in Atlanta; the SARS situation in Toronto has the potential for a National Emergency. Wisely, Ontario is seeking help before this becomes a National disaster.

While teams are being constructed and resources gathered to be sent North, the CDC has been required to advise Toronto & Ontario that a response outside the US requires an Official request from the National Government. A "Pro Forma" request is needed to comply with American Law.

Now, M. Chretien must call Amb. Cellucci and formally request assistance! There is no question it will be granted, indeed, I suspect the American CDC Team wil be in place long before the paperwork is filed.

If you are American, when a friend asks for help, you give it.

[Moderate Centrist]

Hi Ned,

Don't forget that if you are a Canadian and someone asks for help you also give.

Please don't forget that thousands of Americans were stranded on September 11th and were taken in by Canadian families or that Canada committed what troops it could to Afgan or that Canada had ships in the middle east to help on the war on terror.

[FastNed]

Point well made, Mod! I just couldn't resist an opportunity to zing the great "French" Leader of Canada - the devil made me do it!

I do not question or doubt the basic friendship that exists between our peoples, nor that when the cards are down each of us would be there for the other. If these %$#*& politicians would go get an honest job and learn to work for a living as the rest of us must do, matters would be a great deal better for all of us.

[Guest]

Great posts by WetCoast Bastion and Moderate Centrist.

Too much anti-Canadianism by the self-appointed "conservative" moral compass for my taste.

[Craig Read]

Maybe too much reality for your taste.

Hard to change when you tell yourself you are so perfect.

Most empires collapse from within - Confederation is not dialectically 'preordained' to survive.

It won't without significant reform.

But reform and thinking are anathema to the Canada First club chaired by such geniuses as Maudlin Barflow and her anti-empirical evidence friends.

If you want to be a Canadian - it helps first of all to stop your anti-american racist nonsense.

[Guest]

Craig Read : "Maybe too much reality for your taste. Hard to change when you tell yourself you are so perfect."

That was completely uncalled for.

There wasn't any need for this sort of low-blow sneering personal attacks. If you have something intelligent and rational to say, then do so. Do you think I respect you and your opinions more or less now that you responded with disrespectful hostility and insults?

"If you want to be a Canadian - it helps first of all to stop your anti-american racist nonsense."

This is my third post here. I have never expressed any "anti-American racist nonsense." #1: Why are you lying? #2: Why are you so hostile?

I personally think that your perception of others - especially your fellow Canadians and Canada in general - is characterized by undue hostility and misplaced generalizations.

...but, this is a message board. Hopefully after communicating with your fellow Canucks for a while instead of making assumptions about them, your attitude will become more positive.

[Craig Read]

Thanks for the support Fast. What is endemic in Canada is such malformed attitudes. Vcr girl is just another tree hugging tax and spender from BC. The province that thinks David Suzuki is actually an intelligent commentator on world affairs.

Any politician who comes out and says the current state of affairs is not acceptable is derided as an immigrant hating, kill the old, starve the children pro American. In Canada they actually believe that people are dying on the streets in the US due to health care and other 'neo liberal' policies.

Canada has to add some value to the world. It needs to define itself, not in senseless slogans and socialism - healthcare is hardly an identity - but in something more profound.

Being nice means nothing, and besides the reality is that Canadians are not nicer than anyone else - anti american racism is a case in point.

[FastNed]

Hello Vancouvergal. You are correct that this is a great forum and the discussions do get heated but generally do stay well within polite bounds. And on the rare occasion we do begin to slip, Greg will chime in as Administrator and remind us that we are attempting to engage in civilized debate.

Before you form a harsh opinion of Craig, note that he has been under incoming fire for some time as "pro-American" and like anyone in that position, he shoots back.

This thread began around a discussion of Canadian Culture - does one exist other than "Anything but American"?

What is your view?

[Guest]

FastNed - Thanks for the welcome and the advice. FYI I'm not inclined whatsoever to prejudge others, but I do hold them accountable for their behaviour.

"This thread began around a discussion of Canadian Culture - does one exist other than "Anything but American"? What is your view?"

IMHO sadly too much of Canadian history and heritage is ignored and even dismissed. Canada has many proud traditions and a history which stretch back hundreds of years. The communities of the Maritimes and Quebec have centuries of history and unique culture and tradition.

Craig Read - So far you're batting two for two. Why do you feel the need to grossly stereotype and insult others? Why do you feel entitled to behave in such an unnecessarily boorish fashion?

I for one am interested in rational and civil debate and discussion. If you are not interested in this sort of communication please feel free to look elsewhere to fulfill an apparantly irresistable urge to flame.

"Canada has to add some value to the world."

What - zippers and insulin wasn't enough?

"Being nice means nothing"

Au contraire, it is everything: 'Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.' It is one of the essential pillars of "Western" civillization.

Pax!

[Craig Read]

Being nice defines a people about as much as bad odours describe the French.

Canada was in the process of adding value to the world.

Since Trudeau, and the left wing weirdo's that now dominate the political scene at ALL levels implemented big government the country has slowly started to shut down.

40.000 go the US each year. 300.000 have fled Quebec since 1975. Statism is a cancer. It spreads, it eats, it destroys.

Evenutally Canada will have to face the fact that it is technically bankrupt. Programs will collapse or taxation will increase or probably as is the Canadian want you will increase taxes and tinker with the socialist state. The rot will spread.

This says nothing about our military, our lack of security or our pathetic immigration policy.

None of these issues are nice.

[Guest]

I suspect you may be a cynic, Craig Read.

"Canada was in the process of adding value to the world."

I'd be interested in reading your opinion on positive Canadian influences and impacts. Prior to our national degeneration, of course.

"None of these issues are nice."

I'd agree with you.

However, personally I don't allow myself to be puppeteered by emotionalistic reationism. The more one reacts to an agenda (or any issue or situation) the more one is controlled by it. IME

[Craig Read]

Cynic ? Not - Realist yes. Canadians live in a dream world. I have lived worked all over the EU which i call Canada's future.

Nice place to vacation is Europe. Old buildings, bricks, history, art, interesting people and culture. It also spawned communism, fascism, the holocaust, socialism and secret police. It has massive levels of debt and unfunded liabilities. The EU is an attempt to counter US power but also find a way to pay off these crippling debts by making a common market which is actually a huge mercantilist bloc. In 20 years the deodorant free French and friends will face financial paralysis. I suppose if they are nice they will survive of course.

The EU is no friend of Canada's.

Yet Canadians copy EU institutions, post modern theology [an idiotic philosophy], and support of the UNO.

Yes once Canada had some value, now it is just another whining EU wannabee with a streak of venal anti-jew and anti-american sentiment in its educational system, political system and biased media.

[Guest]

quote

Cynic ? Not - Realist yes.

I say the same thing all the time.

quote

It also spawned communism, fascism, the holocaust, socialism and secret police.

...and the Renaissance, and the Magna Carta, and almost all of the great philosophers and philosophies.

quote

It has massive levels of debt and unfunded liabilities.

So do we. So does the USA.

quote

The EU is an attempt to counter US power but also find a way to pay off these crippling debts by making a common market which is actually a huge mercantilist bloc.

What do you think NAFTA is? Same thing.

quote

The EU is no friend of Canada's.

I disagree. I have also lived in Europe and had an experience that must be contrary to your own.

quote

Yes once Canada had some value

So tell us about it, why don't you? In your opinion, what are the positive accomplishments of Canada? It'd be nice to actually have a back-and-forth discussion rather than these detached soapbox pontifications. That is the point of a discussion board, isn't it.

quote

now it is just another whining EU wannabee with a streak of venal anti-jew and anti-american sentiment in its educational system, political system and biased media.

Anti-Canadian bigotry and rhetoric does not prove your point (whatever that may be): rather the opposite. Justify your negative "characterizations." Why do you hold the overwhelmingly negative view of Canada and Canadians that you seem to?

FWIW I believe Canada to be filled with open-minded, tolerant, generous, and quite honestly nice people.

[Craig Read]

Not according to Polls, the Liberals and the Globe and Mail.

The culture being created in Canada is racist. Stereotyping Americans with bigotry and language of ignorance.

It flows from 'your' political leadership.

Take Chretien - he reflects the adolescence of his country. Pandering to EU socialists and 3rd world dictators, this pathetic leader refuses to understand that anti-Americanism is simply dumb and bad Canadian policy. It contravenes Canadian history, its core values and its current self interest. Chretien is a mockery of a man. A total incompetent.

For Chretien how about a comparison of Canada and the US since 1993. Let's look at this:

-Total jobs created

-# of Referenda and mid term elections held

-% of population that votes

-# of house debates on Kyoto

-Productivity per capita

-Capital investment per capita

-GDP per capita

-Income per capita

-Access to timely health care

-Access to updated technology in health care

-Military spend

-Security of borders

-Funding per capita for international groups

-# of State owned broadcasters

-# of State sponsored newspapers with ties to the party of power

and on... and on... and on....

You want comparisons Chretien ? I don't think you would like a comparison on real issues with the US.

A legacy ?

A legacy of mealy mouthed stupidity. Just like his old buddy Trudeau another Canadian national embarassment.

[SirRiff]

saying that Canada is somehow 'anti-Americans' is a strange attempt by a minority of Canadians to get their voice heard. certainly, they deserve to be heard, but sometimes this desire manifests in misleading philosophies and meanings.

Canada absolutely is a unique nation, just because %100 of the people cannot put down a comprehensive written definition of what it is, doesn't mean it doesn’t exist. it exists in an intangible form that changes your life everyday in often small and unnoticed ways.

and the real defining test for whether a country is successful is if it provides for the quality of life of its citizens. when compared to the other developed nations in the world, Canada is undeniably always a top candidate, and according to the UN

(Link) we are constantly near the top. in fact in 2000 the countries were listed as;

1. Norway

2. Sweden

3. Canada

4. Belgium

5. Australia

6. US

7. Iceland

8. Netherlands

9. Japan

10. Finland

11. Switzerland

12. France

13. UK

now it doesn’t take a Sesame Street genius to figure out 'which of these countries doesn’t belong'. the US shares a completely opposite culture from the rest of these progressive countries.

and in fact, a vocal minority in this oasis of life we have called Canada, have no choice to protest that we are in crisis, or that we are one the wrong path. the truth is, that saying things are 95% OK, will never get you an audience. politicians always claim they alone can fix whatever is wrong, even if there is little wrong.

in fact, it is necessary to incite fear and uncertainty to achieve influence. the truth is we live in the best country, in the best culture, with the best people. anybody that says otherwise is either trying to invent influence, or is just frustrated philosophically and misdirecting the facts.

Nobody will ever get your attention by saying things are pretty damn good and we take them for granted. They will only get your attention saying your government is ignorant (which it is), that it wastes your money (which it does), that you are immediately unsafe (which really isn’t true if you have the time to debate such things), and that only they are capable of fixing things. The truth is that the exact same arguments will be made by the next candidate who wants to get your attention, regardless of who is in power.

Any reasonable examination of Canada would show that we live among the best lives of any humans in the world regardless of who our elected leaders are. That in securing our rights we are almost unnoticed compared to what the worlds power, the US does everyday to secure its prosperity. And that we do have a unique and distinct culture, which consciously chooses the everyday quality of life that equality and peace brings us, over the rhetoric of liberty and patriotism that so often define US culture.

And I think that majority of Canada strongly embraces this culture without harm to those who disagree, and thus Canada as a nation is succeeding at providing for its citizens.

None of this pretends we don’t have real hardships to face, that is called life. But inventing a non-existent crises because of philosophical or political differences is misleading at best, and deviant at worst.

Real world Canada is great, regardless of what philosophy you subscribe to.

SirRiff

[Craig Read]

And according to real studies with real numbers and methodologies such as the Heritage Group or the Fraser Inst. Canada ranks about 17th in the world as a place to live. The UN study is meaningless - it is based on 4 subjective categories with no science or methodology. Typical UN process much like Kyoto.

Being a UN model state is also nothing to cheer about. The UN's raison d'etre is statism - control, welfare, high taxes, equality and affirmative [ie racist] action. Being told by such a group that you are a model nation is more of an embarassment than anything else. The UN and their Dr Blofield view of global governance and massive state ownership is the antithesis of what makes societies rich - monetarily and morally.

I find it laughable that Canada with the 4th highest debt/capita and taxation / capita, with no military, a broken immigration system, a Federal political structure that allows one party to capture one province and dominate the land with majority governments, and a Federal budget that hands out $100 billion per annum in subsidies, transfer payments, assorted nonsensical projects and health/pension scams is transformed into #1 in the world!. You must live in some perverted reality to buy into that one. Or do you believe what you want to believe ? I know lots of people in life that hear only what they want to hear.....

Welcome to Dr Blofield's model state. Please deposit your brain outside the door as you walk in.....

[FastNed]

I think the diference in the viewpoints expressed by SirRiff and Craig are based upon the view from where they are standing and what they see.

Politically, Craig is rather correct. The present government of Canada is close to Third World status; the Ottawa Tribe has all the levers of power firmly in hand, the system is jiggered so they can not loose political control and they are adept enough at what they do that the average Canadian does not notice the errosion of their personal freedoms.

SirRiff, from his position sees that the quality of life in Canada (as in all of North America) is pretty damn good compared to the remainder of the world. The average Canadian has a fairly decent life and is concentrating on his life, his family and his future. Like his American Cousins (until the 9 - 11 awakening) politics and the political control of the Country is not something much thought about until election time - and except for the "political junkies", even then its no big deal.

What is not seen is that a generation or two down the road, Canada will find itself in the present situation of "Old Europe".

Destitute!

[Guest]

You could be right Ned but I tend to look at it another way. Canada isn't really a leader among the nations. So much that happens seems to take forever, royal commissions for instance. However, we are cooperative and we are observant. Being a young nation we have been able to look and see how certain things have fared for other countries, especially the US. I see us as a country moving slowly but surely along the right path. True equallity will exist here, as will an encompassing and sustainable social safety net. Accountabillity and transparency are slow to be adopted, but it will come. The ideas of PR and senate reform, I'd expect to be a reallity in say 10 or 15yrs. People talk of seperation and the sky is falling, and I often agree that these are hard times. But as slow and as ponderous as our gov't is, it will eventually get us to the place we want to be. (Of course it is up to us to give them a poke once in awhile to be sure they're not sleeping at the wheel)

[SirRiff]

Canada is only 31 million in a huge nation. if you want to live in a dense industrialized nation then the US is your best bet with 280 million.

and these political criticisms of canada are philosphical and have no meaning in the real world. the only thing that matters is how a country provides for its citizens. i'm sure we could have all had this discussion during the 50s about how blacks were ruining the country and such. but obvously it would have been nonsense because it didnt affect us.

all these disgruntled threads are personal philosophies disguised as real world politics. truth is we have the highest quality of life in the world and the country is doing fine.

the only way to get attention in such a great country is to complain about something non-existant

SirRiff