Canada's Liberals

[bigdude]

Martin's Liberals running out of ethical capital

Exactly 10 years ago the influential Wall Street Journal glanced north, considered the economic mess left behind by Brian Mulroney and Pierre Trudeau, and labelled near-bankrupt Canada as an honorary member of the Third World. Paul Martin, then a rookie finance minister with a single budget under his belt, responded in ways that changed the country and ultimately made him Prime Minister.

Where is The Wall Street Journal now? Where is that Paul Martin?

Bankrupt and Third World are surely as fine a fit today as they were in 1995. Tailored by more than the sponsorship scandal, they drape a country that is economically sound but ethically destitute.

How else to measure the affairs of a state that in a matter of weeks heard testimony that federal Liberals in Quebec pocketed $300,000 in taxpayers money while mismanaging some $330 million, witnessed defections and deceit on Parliament Hill and missed the humour in speculation that Belinda Stronach, or, for that matter, Justin Trudeau have the political right stuff?

This is more than a horror movie; it's theatre of the absurd. Blame something in the air, water or food, but a nation built on peace, order and good government is tilting toward jungle rules favouring the raw application of power by those guided by ambition, opportunism and a blatant disregard for the national interest.

Who would have guessed a year ago that money-stuffed envelopes and gangland threats would join the political lexicon, that a single vote could elevate the demonstrably unqualified to Cabinet, or that an MP wearing a wire and Tim Murphy, the Prime Minister's top political adviser, would barter loyalty against rewards, public trust against personal advancement?

What's worse is that all of this — and too much more to list — is unfolding on the watch of a Prime Minister who promised to savage the democratic deficit with all the ferocity he applied to the fiscal deficit.

I remember all the hulabaloo when PM Martin first became leader of the Liberals and the media hype surrounding him suggested he was going to win 250 seats. Now he can't even get a majority goverment. What a disappointment PM Martin has become to the Canadian people.

[bigdude]

Waiting for rock bottom

The Prime Minister of Canada has been caught trying to support a version of events that is clearly not true. Liberal officials are accusing the Conservatives of committing forgery. There has never been anything like this in Ottawa. Ever.

The aftermath of the release of taped conversations between Conservative MP Gurmant Grewal and senior Liberals washed over a sullied capital yesterday.

Both the governing party and the Official Opposition have been tainted by this latest scandal. But the situation for the Liberals is worse.

Paul Martin insists that Mr. Grewal contacted Liberal Party officials, suggesting that he and his wife, Nina, might be willing to cross the floor, which would rescue the government from possible defeat in the House.

How did the Liberals respond? "I essentially said to members of the government and my staff that they could pursue discussions, but that under no circumstances could any offer be made and no offer was made," Mr. Martin insisted in the House yesterday.

"The fundamental fact is no offer was made, no request was accepted."

This is not true. The tapes released by Mr. Grewal clearly show Tim Murphy, Mr. Martin's chief of staff, violating the spirit and letter of those instructions.

It is true that Mr. Murphy insists repeatedly on the tapes that he cannot offer Mr. Grewal any specific, immediate reward in exchange for his and his wife's support.

But Mr. Murphy then promises Mr. Grewal that if the two will abstain or support the government on the crucial no-confidence vote, then both sides can negotiate the terms of their crossing the floor once the House rises for the summer and things settle down.

And he repeatedly assures Mr. Grewal that the Liberal Party will be very welcoming, that the Grewals' decision would deserve to be rewarded.

That's the spirit part. Mr. Murphy appears to violate the letter of Mr. Martin's instructions when he suggests that the government might be able to expedite a complaint against Mr. Grewal that is before the Ethics Commissioner, as part of a Grewal-Liberal accord.

If any Liberal takes issue with this interpretation of Mr. Murphy's conversations, please come forward. As yet, no one has.

Things have definitely taken a serious turn for the worse in Ottawa. Power does seem to corrupt doesn't it!

[daniel]

Which begs the question: What makes a good leader?

A good leader can instill loyalty in his/her team with confidence. The true test is not during times of prosperity but times of crisis.

Under the current circumstances, under Martin, the Liberal popularity has plummetted but the government is still surviving. His team appears in solidarity. Within caucus, who knows how much confidence there really is. Would the Liberals be experiencing better prospects with another leader (say, under Chretien whom they so eagerly booted out?)? Is Martin the best that there can possibly be? Since taking over, the Martin government has been in crisis management. Although, this is no fault of his own, would a better leader have driven the agenda albiet even for a minority government instead of the agenda driving him? Is there somebody waiting in the wings to pick up what Martin will drop?

Now consider Harper. The current circumstances couldn't be better for any other party at any other time in recent Canadian history. The current government has by default inherited the most scandalous corruption ever (seems as if that will continue to be the case for every consecutive government). The Conservatives certainly has capitalized with increased popularity. So why in the best of times has their rise in popularity stalled at only with their traditional supporters? Is the Conservatives really instilled with confidence and loyalty? What would the caucus meetings truly reveal? After five leaders, is Harper the best that there can possibly be?

[bigdude]

June 1, 2005

If it is confirmed that a police investigation has been launched, the two of them must step aside while it is ongoing. There's no room for debate about that.

In Canada's history, there is ample precedent for that, too. Quite a few ministerial resignations have been prompted by criminal and quasi-criminal inquiries and investigations, as seen most recently in the Bernard Valcourt case (in 1989), the Andre Bissonette case (in 1987), the Sinclair Stevens case (in 1986), and the Marcel Masse case (in 1985). And, yes, I too noticed that a lot more people were forced to quit under Mulroney than Chretien for ethical violations. You didn't think I'd miss that, did you?

If I were Mr. Murphy or Mr. Dosanjh, I would be feeling rather nervous for the next while.

...

Grewal Tapes Update (RCMP) (Grewal-Tapes-UpdateRCMP)

June 1, 2005 16:00

OTTAWA -- The R.C.M.P is looking at a complaint by the Bloc Quebecois of possible criminal activity in attempts by the Liberals to win over a Tory MP.

But a spokeswoman for the force (Corporal Monique Beauchamp) will only say the complaint is being processed to see if an investigation is necessary.

Bloc Leader Gilles Duceppe says it's unlawful to try to buy an MP's vote and Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh should step down while the matter is settled.

A tape made secretly by Gurmant Grewal indicates Dosanjh and Prime Minister Martin's chief of staff Tim Murphy made vague promises to him in exchange for Grewal joining the Liberals.

Dosanjh says the tapes have been doctored and Martin denies any offers were ever made in exchange for Grewal's vote.

Who cares if the tapes were doctored, as that is for the police to sort out. This altering of the tapes is a red herring thrown in by Dosanjh to try and take the heat off the Liberals. Bye, bye Ujjal.

[cybercoma]

To steal a concept from Will Ferguson, author of Bastards and Boneheads: Canada's Glorious Leaders Past and Present, Finance Minister Paul Martin: Bastard, Prime Minister Paul Martin: Bonehead.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Who cares if the tapes were doctored, ...

I thought the NDP wanted to get to the bottom of this!

[cybercoma]

Who cares if the tapes were doctored, ...

I thought the NDP wanted to get to the bottom of this!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They just want to get to the bottom of the bank account, who cares about corruption? I thought that was obvious.

[bigdude]

Screw your cutting sentences in half and misrepresenting people. Pathetic.

Who cares if the tapes were doctored, as that is for the police to sort out. This altering of the tapes is a red herring thrown in by Dosanjh to try and take the heat off the Liberals. Bye, bye Ujjal. 

[The Terrible Sweal]

Screw your cutting sentences in half and misrepresenting people. Pathetic.

Cutting sentences in half is acceptable when you make it clear you have done so. Especially when the full quote was read by everone just a moment before.

Misrepresenting you would have involved suggesting a different meaning than you originally gave. I don't think I did that.

[bigdude]

PM won't discipline aide, minister over tapes

Another PM Martin mistake except how can he do the right thing when he is involved in this up to his eyeballs.

[Shakeyhands]

PM won't discipline aide, minister over tapes

Another PM Martin mistake except how can he do the right thing when he is involved in this up to his eyeballs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not so sure now are we? With obvious gaps in the tapes its clearer than ever how slimy Grewal is... Not to mention his party leader who is backing him up to the hilt.. What does the CPC have to do with the doctoring of the tapes?????? Shame

[August1991]

Which begs the question: What makes a good leader?

A good leader can instill loyalty in his/her team with confidence.  The true test is not during times of prosperity but times of crisis.

Under the current circumstances, under Martin, the Liberal popularity has plummetted but the government is still surviving.  His team appears in solidarity.  Within caucus, who knows how much confidence there really is.  Would the Liberals be experiencing better prospects with another leader (say, under Chretien whom they so eagerly booted out?)?  Is Martin the best that there can possibly be? Since taking over, the Martin government has been in crisis management.  Although, this is no fault of his own, would a better leader have driven the agenda albiet even for a minority government instead of the agenda driving him?  Is there somebody waiting in the wings to pick up what Martin will drop?

Now consider Harper.  The current circumstances couldn't be better for any other party at any other time in recent Canadian history.  The current government has by default inherited the most scandalous corruption ever (seems as if that will continue to be the case for every consecutive government).  The Conservatives certainly has capitalized with increased popularity.  So why in the best of times has their rise in popularity stalled at only with their traditional supporters?  Is the Conservatives really instilled with confidence and loyalty? What would the caucus meetings truly reveal? After five leaders, is Harper the best that there can possibly be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Daniel, IMV, that is a very interesting post.

Belinda crossed the floor and Grewal and Mark did not; that's the only evidence we have so far of disloyalty.

IOW, the efforts have all been Liberals trying to get Tories to cross. We have heard no stories of Tories trying to get Liberals to cross.

Right or wrong, I think Harper some time ago decided that he wasn't going to play that game. (IMV, Harper is a Clyde Wells type - a little too straight.)

Now then, considering the pressure, are you not impressed that Harper has kept his own people (excepting Stronach) in line?

In addition, Harper has apparently not ceded to the temptation of offering a Liberal MP something. We have no tapes, stories, anecdotes, allegations or cups of tea - anything - where Harper discusses a Liberal crossing the floor.

Draw your own conclusion.

----

daniel, you also raise a good point about why the Tories have not done better in the polls and why the Liberals still come first. My own explanation is that Canada is in serious trouble but some Ontario voters want the Liberal Party to keep Canada as it is. These Ontario voters don't understand why there is a problem.

[Riverwind]

daniel, you also raise a good point about why the Tories have not done better in the polls and why the Liberals still come first.  My own explanation is that Canada is in serious trouble but some Ontario voters want the Liberal Party to keep Canada as it is.  These Ontario voters don't understand why there is a problem.

Copied from another thread because it is a more appropriate response to your comment here:

I don't understand your logic. Quebequers have absolutely no interest in voting for the Conservatives - for many of the same reasons that people in Ontario have. In Quebec, the voters turn to an anti-system party which has no chance of being in gov't. If Francophone voters were willing to vote Conservative then the Liberals would already be out of power. If some prominate Francophones joined the party I am sure the CPC brass would sprain their wrists ripping the objectionable social conservative policies out of their policy book.

In short, why do you blame people in Ontario for keeping the Liberals in power when the Quebec electorate has the power to throw them out but they choose not use it?

In fact, If Francophone Quebequers switch to the Conservatives you would likely see the Liberal core support melt away in English Canada. I know I would for the CPC if they had a chance in francophone Quebec.

[bigdude]

Conducted in conjunction with the Institute for Research on Public Policy (IRPP), a new SES-IRPP-CPAC survey indicated that over four in ten Canadians (43%) believed that Prime Minister Paul Martin and former Prime Minister Jean Chretien should both take responsibility for activities uncovered by the Gomery Commission. Another 29% said Paul Martin alone should take responsibility, while 16% said that Chretien should take the blame by himself.

"Interestingly, Quebec voters were more likely to believe that former Prime Minister Jean Chretien should take responsibility for the sponsorship scandal," said SES President Nikita Nanos. "However, among Canadians outside of Quebec, this opinion flips. Canadians from outside of Quebec are more likely to believe that Martin should take responsibility when compared to Chretien."

"The impact of the Gomery Inquiry on the public perception of Prime Minister Martin should give political leaders pause," according to SES President Nikita Nanos. "It appears that the best motives and a proactive open approach are no guarantee of gaining public confidence."

The results with the regional breakdown is available on the SES website (www.sesresearch.com). An analysis by Nikita Nanos is also available in the June issue of Policy Options - the official magazine of the IRPP.

Polling April 30th to May 4th, 2005 (Random telephone interviews of 1,000 eligible Canadian voters, 18 years of age or older, MoE ±3.1%,

19 times out of 20). Percentages may not add up to 100 due to rounding.

Question - Who should take responsibility for activities uncovered by the Gomery Commission: (Read and Rotate) Prime Minister Paul Martin, former Prime Minister Jean Chretien, both or none of them?

Both - 43%

Paul Martin - 29%

Jean Chretien - 16%

None of them - 6%

Unsure - 5%

Question - Do you follow the work of the Gomery Commission very closely, somewhat closely, not very closely, or not at all?

Very closely - 12%

Somewhat closely - 47%

Not very closely - 26%

Not at all - 13%

Unsure - 2%

Question - During his nationally televised address, Paul Martin apologized to Canadians for the activities that were uncovered by the Gomery Commission. Did your impression of Paul Martin improve, stay the same or worsen because of the apology?

Improve - 17%

Stay the same - 59%

Worsen - 16%

Unsure - 9%

For in-depth coverage of the poll with SES President Nik Nanos, watch PrimeTime Politics with Peter Van Dusen on CPAC - Canada's Political Channel, live tonight.

Visit the SES website at www.sesresearch.com to sign up for instant email notifications of Canada's latest polls.

Feel free to forward this e-mail.

Cheers,

Nik

-------------------------------------

Nikita James Nanos, CMRP

President & CEO

SES Research

T 613.234.4666 x. 237

www.sesresearch.com

Back to the main event.

[Argus]

daniel, you also raise a good point about why the Tories have not done better in the polls and why the Liberals still come first.  My own explanation is that Canada is in serious trouble but some Ontario voters want the Liberal Party to keep Canada as it is.  These Ontario voters don't understand why there is a problem.

Copied from another thread because it is a more appropriate response to your comment here:

I don't understand your logic. Quebequers have absolutely no interest in voting for the Conservatives - for many of the same reasons that people in Ontario have.

The people of Quebec are reasonably happy with the BQ. They know that all the BQ cares about is them. Many of those who vote BQ actually have little or no interest in seperation. They simply know that the BQ, unlike the Tories or Liberals or NDP, will not have any reason to compromise in considering the interests of one part of the country against those of another. Because the BQ doesn't care what's in BC's interest, or Ontario's or New Brunswick's. They only care about Quebec. And the voters of Quebec know that even if they kick out almost all the Liberals it won't cost them. The Liberals will simply offer up even more incentives to vote for them next time. There will be even more promises of bridges, roads, and huge, heaping doses of government grants and subsidies. So they don't need the BQ to be part of the government in order to get everything they want.

I have no idea why the people of Ontario vote Liberal. It's probably a combination of stupidity, gullibility, elastic values, a cynicism that all politicians are crooks anyway, the lack of charm of Stephen Harper, scaremongering by the Liberals and the media and too many foreign born people for whom this sort of corruption is just politics as usual anyway.

[Riverwind]

They simply know that the BQ, unlike the Tories or Liberals or NDP, will not have any reason to compromise in considering the interests of one part of the country against those of another. Because the BQ doesn't care what's in BC's interest, or Ontario's or New Brunswick's. They only care about Quebec. .

I have no idea why the people of Ontario vote Liberal. It's probably a combination of stupidity, gullibility, elastic values, a cynicism that all politicians are crooks anyway, the lack of charm of Stephen Harper, scaremongering by the Liberals and the media and too many foreign born people for whom this sort of corruption is just politics as usual anyway.

You praise Quebequers for being self-centered obstructionists but you call Ontario stupid for not giving Harper a blank check to govern. Sorry, my original point is still valid - if Quebequers really wanted the Liberals out of power they could vote Conservative. So stop insulting and blaming the Ontario voter and try looking at the CPC policies that make it difficult for urban voters to vote Conservative.

[bigdude]

- where this belongs

There were weekends involved and there were translation issues to deal with.

So far all we have to go on is Liberal hype that the tapes have been altered.

So this is NDP ethics, is it? Piling on to a bandwagon of bribe-seeking and fraudulent tapes? Marvellous. Nothing like the high road, eh?

Weekends and translations? No one needed the CPC to provide a translation! And 13 DAYS of weekend? Crap. It takes about 4.5 hours to copy 4 hours of tapes. It takes two minutes to call a newspaper and another 45 minutes to send a reporter out to collect them.

The moment the dumbies refused to relase the tapes it was obvious that they were knee deep in tory sleaze. If the NDP wants to cosy up to these kinds of criminal tactics, they might as well cut their own throats. All the NDP has going for it is the high road, so they better watch their step.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are smoking something and it isn't cigarettes.

Typical Liberal hype withouit the slightest shred of evidence anywhere.

The NDP wanted it investigated like most appropriate Canadian citizens do, and the NDP are the only federalist party with any credibility at all on this issue.

The NDP are certainly NOT promoting a lynching party like you Liberals are trying to lead.

The reality is the Gomery commission has severely damaged you Liberals and you are desperate to find an escape route.

You are grasping at straws here.

[The Terrible Sweal]

(IMV, Harper is a Clyde Wells type - a little too straight.)

Get real. When Wells talked straight, it was straight talk. When Harper talks straight it's an overly sweeping, unsupported accusation.

Now then, considering the pressure, are you not impressed that Harper has kept his own people (excepting Stronach) in line?

Except for failing spectacularly, yes, Harper's success is admirable.

In addition, Harper has apparently not ceded to the temptation of offering a Liberal MP something.

What could he possibly offer??

Meanwhile, doctoring tapes to support a false allegation sits okay with your sense of ethics, does it?

... why the Tories have not done better in the polls and why the Liberals still come first.  My own explanation is that Canada is in serious trouble but some Ontario voters want the Liberal Party to keep Canada as it is.  These Ontario voters don't understand why there is a problem.

I sure don't understand what problem you think they don't understand.

[The Terrible Sweal]

This post moved back to the thead I was answering on.

[bigdude]

The NDP wanted it investigated like most appropriate Canadian citizens do, and the NDP are the only federalist party with any credibility at all on this issue.

For now, but if you keep supporting doctored tapes you'll hang yourselves.

The reality is the Gomery commission has severely damaged you Liberals  ...

I'm not a Liberal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes you are.

I didn't say you were a member of the Liberal party just that you are a Liberal.

[The Terrible Sweal]

The NDP wanted it investigated like most appropriate Canadian citizens do, and the NDP are the only federalist party with any credibility at all on this issue.

For now, but if you keep supporting doctored tapes you'll hang yourselves.

The reality is the Gomery commission has severely damaged you Liberals  ...

I'm not a Liberal.

And what's with moving the answers around? It's quite confusing.

[The Terrible Sweal]

I didn't say you were a member of the Liberal party just that you are a Liberal.

FYI, in Canada. using the capital "L" generally indicates the Liberal party. If you mean the political philosophy it's better to use a small "l". Or even better to be more specific, e.g. 'classical liberal' in my case.

[bigdude]

FYI I live in Canada.

All this nonsense about doctored tapes is an attempt to discredit what

Dosanjh and Murphy said on the tapes which could lead to 14 years inprisonment.

[Riverwind]

All this nonsense about doctored tapes is an attempt to discredit what

Dosanjh and Murphy said on the tapes which could lead to 14 years inprisonment.

That is quite unlikely. The law on the books was never intended to include haggling over political appointments - it was intended to stop outsiders with influencing MPs with stacks of 50s.

The RCMP will be very relucant to apply the law to this situation because it would create a precedent that could have far reaching ramifications.

This is what I heard a professor of law say today - someone who is in a position to know these things.

[The Terrible Sweal]

FYI I live in Canada.

Excellent for you. Now you know how to communicate a little better here.

All this nonsense about doctored tapes is an attempt to discredit what Dosanjh and Murphy said on the tapes which could lead to 14 years inprisonment.

Now this is NDP sleaze! Dosanj and Murphy broke no laws even going by the doctored tapes. On the other hand, you are skating pretty close to libel.