US demand - hand over your passenger list

[RB]

Are we compromising our liberties, I mean there are personal information readily available on those tickets, plus those itinerary.. means no fooling around anymore? and who really is looking at this data - a contractor.

What is going to happen to Canadian domestic flights that only travel short distances in US space, and how about those folks who are not allow to travel in the US but can travel domestically in Canada

Ok so there is some kind of "no fly list" that all names are checked against - I mean how many names are on this list plus I understand the information gathered can also be used to catch other kinds criminals. Makes you wonder what else the list will be expanded to accommodate.

There are millions of flyers every month - are we just detracting from security

Plus can someone let me know how far up in space a country owns

Plus do property owners have any space allocation

[August1991]

Are we compromising our liberties, I mean there are personal information readily available on those tickets, plus those itinerary.. means no fooling around anymore? and who really is looking at this data - a contractor. 

What is going to happen to Canadian domestic flights that only travel short distances in US space, and how about those folks who are not allow to travel in the US but can travel domestically in Canada

Ok so there is some kind "no fly list" that all names are checked against - I mean how many names are on this list plus I understand the information gathered can also be used to catch other kinds criminals.  Makes you wonder what else the list will be expanded to accommodate.

There are millions of flyers every month - are we just detracting from security

Plus can someone let me know how far up in space a country owns

Plus do property owners have any space allocation

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the US government is fully justified in applying this policy. I believe Australia requires a visitor visa (and detailed information) of every visiting foreigners excepting NZ citizens.

One could argue that it is costly to obtain this information given the meagre security benefits it provides.

IMHO, I would like to see a common North American visa, or a reciprocal agreement whereby Canadian and US visas offer entry to both countries. This is the case in Europe now with the Schengen visa.

Finally, private individuals do not own the space above their property. You cannot sue a pilot who flies over your land. I suppose the State's ability to stop entrusion determines how high collective ownership rights extend. As the recent incident with a Portuguese vessel shows, Canada has trouble protecting its coastal waters, let alone airspace. But the Canadian government earns revenue from commercial airlines overflying Canadian territory.

[ceemes]

Fokk America.....

[August1991]

The audacity! The arrogance! I am thunderstruck. Imagine, the US government wants to control who flies over its airspace.

Already any plane flying in or out of the United States must provide authorities with a passenger manifest and any person considered a security risk by the U.S. may be pulled from the plane.

But a new American proposal attempts to go one step further by demanding that any flight passing through U.S. airspace, even if it doesn't land, must first submit its passengers' names, citizenship, birthdays, and possibly their addresses and credit card details.

...

Lapierre says the proposal by the Americans is a hot issue for the Liberal government.

CBC

The sad thing is that Lapierre is saying this purely to seek the "fokk America" bigot vote. If he were serious about solving this problem, he would not go about a solution this way.

[PocketRocket]

Oh well, turnabout being fair play and all that....

Anybody know how many American flights fly over Canadian soil???

Kimmy??? Anyone???

If there are a lot (I don't know), then imposing the same kind of regulation might soften up their stance on this.

[Riverwind]

I think the US government is fully justified in applying this policy.  I believe Australia requires a visitor visa (and detailed information) of every visiting foreigners excepting NZ citizens.

Requiring passenger lists for Canadian domestic flights is completely unjustified. US paranoia is getting out of control. We know what happened in the 50s when they let Senator McCarthy loose - a lot of innocent people had their lives ruined.

Look at what happened to Maher Arar - sent by the US to Syria to be tortured because they decided that he must be a terrorist because he was born in Syria and the RCMP saw him talking to other suspected 'terrorists'. The standard of 'evidence' for putting someone on the US no fly list is much less.

Would you be so willing to support the US action if it meant members of the Quebec sovereignty movement were no longer allowed to board planes in Canada? Don't laugh. The people who make up the no fly list have no accountability to anyone and no incentive to ensure accuracy and an attitude of better 'safe than sorry' even if it disrupts the lives of innocent people. It is not a stretch to imagine an ignorant FBI hack hearing about the 'separatist' movement in Quebec and assuming they are potential terrorists.

[RB]

US demands is called intrusion of people's lives

I mean what grade you could give to a system that investigates every person for wrong doing?

Plus imagine we are only looking for marginal security improvement right?

Look, I am already delayed at the airport because of the under wire that supports my demi bra plus I have enough troubles as it is with my high heels that conceal steel

I vote similar to putting a military personnel on every plane, that we put an attorney on every flight to respect people's liberties for due process

[Sir Chauncy]

A better question is, "why do trans Canada" flights fly over American air space anyway.

Sir Chauncy

[jimrahn]

A better question is, "why do trans Canada" flights fly over American air space anyway.

Sir Chauncy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think because it's cheaper for them (ie shorter distances, less fuel used up, longer time between maintenance checks)

Bottom line is a nation owns the airspace above it right up to the edge of the atmosphere. It's American airspace, therefore we follow American rules or we choose an all-Canada route. Simple.

I think actually private proerty owners do own the airspace above their property right out to the edge of space, they just aren't allowed to do anything about it without following FAA or Transport Canada regulations.

However if the guy next door to me decides he wants to park a truck-mounted crane in his back yard, with the crane overhanging MY backyard, I have every right to have him remove it. Similarly, if a neighbours tree has branches hanging over my side of the fence and is getting it's pine needles into MY eavestrough, I have every right to cut those branches off the tree.

Besides, Canadians want a fair deal from the US.

If we want them to respect the our high arctic, then we shoudlr espect their high airspace.

cheers

[Sir Chauncy]

I think actually private proerty owners do own the airspace above their property right out to the edge of space, they just aren't allowed to do anything about it without following FAA or Transport Canada regulations.

___________________

I believe landowners own thirty feet of air over their land but must allow certain things access, like hydro wires, oil lines etc.

Any lawyers in here could likely answer that though.

Owl

[ScottBrison]

As I said in another thread it's not our right to enter the U.S. it's a privilege they extend to us, just as we extend them the privilege of entering Canada, they can make us do whatever they want to get into their country, and we can make them do whatever we want.

[canuckcat]

Are we compromising our liberties....

Basically don't be surprised if you are overly critical of America here, and on most other web forums, that your name will appear on the no-fly list and you will be taking a train or bus....

[cybercoma]

The paranoia from you a lot of you is amazing. The United States wants a passenger list (I simply do not agree with the credit card info thing though) so it can determine if people flying in their airspace pose a risk to their national security. You do realize planes were hijacked in 2001 and thousands of people senselessly murdered because if it, right? When you fly over American airspace you're entering their country and obviously they should have the right to know who is entering their country.

The same can be said for us, in the interest of security we should be entitled to know what yahoos may be onboard airlines flying over our airspace. This is hardly an invasion of privacy. If you were to land in the United States you'd have to identify yourself anyway, they're simply going a step further in order to protect themselves from someone hijacking a flight from Canada and causing a little havoc in the US.

[Riverwind]

The same can be said for us, in the interest of security we should be entitled to know what yahoos may be onboard airlines flying over our airspace.  This is hardly an invasion of privacy.  If you were to land in the United States you'd have to identify yourself anyway, they're simply going a step further in order to protect themselves from someone hijacking a flight from Canada and causing a little havoc in the US.

The problem is not whether the US knows who is on the planes. The problem is the arbitrary no-fly list made up unilaterally by US gov't officials who are not accountable to anyone. If Americans want to give up their freedom is a misguided over-reaction to the threat posed by terrorism then that is their choice. When they start demanding that Canadians give up those same freedoms then that is a problem.

[cybercoma]

The same can be said for us, in the interest of security we should be entitled to know what yahoos may be onboard airlines flying over our airspace.  This is hardly an invasion of privacy.  If you were to land in the United States you'd have to identify yourself anyway, they're simply going a step further in order to protect themselves from someone hijacking a flight from Canada and causing a little havoc in the US.

The problem is not whether the US knows who is on the planes. The problem is the arbitrary no-fly list made up unilaterally by US gov't officials who are not accountable to anyone. If Americans want to give up their freedom is a misguided over-reaction to the threat posed by terrorism then that is their choice. When they start demanding that Canadians give up those same freedoms then that is a problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're flying in American airspace, is that so difficult to understand? When you're in their country, you play by their rules.