It's revealing

[The Terrible Sweal]

I think a lot of peeps found the tory reaction to Belinda.ca's departure very revealing.

One thing that struck me is that none of them accept that she might concientiously think bedding the Bloque is a bad idea. What is the basis of this reaction? I think it's because so many of todays tories have such a profound dislike for Canada that they simply can't conceive of anyone actually doing something out of the wish to protect Canada.

So, what has anyone else learned abotu the tories from thissad spectacle?

[August1991]

I think it's because so many of todays tories have such a profound dislike for Canada that they simply can't conceive of anyone actually doing something out of the wish to protect Canada.

Can a person in this country criticize the actions of a politician without being accused of being unpatriotic?

Jack Layton, Paul Martin and Stephen Harper and heck, even Gilles Duceppe, all carry Canadian passports when they travel abroad. They are Canadian citizens.

There is something profoundly unseemly when you suggest Tory supporters dislike Canada.

I have never seen such tactics used in other countries except by insecure nationalists in reference to minority groups.

[Riverwind]

I have never seen such tactics used in other countries except by insecure nationalists in reference to minority groups.

Don't Quebec nationalists use those tactics to attack any Quebec politician who tries to co-ooperate with the federal government?

[bigdude]

Very good point!

[August1991]

I have never seen such tactics used in other countries except by insecure nationalists in reference to minority groups.

Don't Quebec nationalists use those tactics to attack any Quebec politician who tries to co-ooperate with the federal government?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm happy to see that you made the comparison. So, what does that make Terrible Sweal and others on this forum?

[cybercoma]

I think a lot of peeps found the tory reaction to Belinda.ca's departure very revealing.

One thing that struck me is that none of them accept that she might concientiously think bedding the Bloque is a bad idea.  What is the basis of this reaction?  I think it's because so many of todays tories have such a profound dislike for Canada that they simply can't conceive of anyone actually doing something out of the wish to protect Canada.

So, what has anyone else learned abotu the tories from thissad spectacle?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the simple fact that the Bloc voted down C-43 while the Tories supported it shows that they're not as chummy as you claim. My enemy's enemy is not necessarily my friend.

:edit: And just to clarify, being an opponent to the Liberal Party does not make you an opponent to Canada...contrary to popular belief.

[Riverwind]

:edit: And just to clarify, being an opponent to the Liberal Party does not make you an opponent to Canada...contrary to popular belief.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, but insisting on an immediate election which would give a large strategic advantage to the BQ is a funny way to show your love for the country. Conservatives could continue to oppose the gov't and demand changes to important policies without an election.

[Canuck E Stan]

How much did the Liberals care about Canada since 1995 when they left the convincing ot federalism to a bunch Quebec ad agencies and did little to monitor the results of the campaign. Obviously after 10 years we see the results of trying to get Quebecors on side.

[cybercoma]

:edit: And just to clarify, being an opponent to the Liberal Party does not make you an opponent to Canada...contrary to popular belief.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, but insisting on an immediate election which would give a large strategic advantage to the BQ is a funny way to show your love for the country. Conservatives could continue to oppose the gov't and demand changes to important policies without an election.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right, but those Canadians who strongly oppose the corruption would see the Conservatives as being inactive and allowing the Liberals to stay in power longer than they needed. They were caugh tin a catch 22, look like you're willing to allow the corruption to continue or force an election which will allow the BQ to get more seats.

With the particularly damning evidence that was coming out of the Gomery Inquiry they really had no choice but to call for the government to go to election. Had Belinda Stronach not crossed the aisle the day before they would've went on to victory in the vote against the budget amendment.

So, the better of the two options (even though they were painted into a corner) was obviously to try and force an election, with the obvious downside of making them appear to be supporters of the BQ.

Of course, this is logically flawed. Not supporting one thing doesn't automatically mean you support something else.

[Riverwind]

How much did the Liberals care about Canada since 1995 when they left the convincing ot federalism to a bunch Quebec ad agencies and did little to monitor the results of the campaign. Obviously after 10 years we see the results of trying to get Quebecors on side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Chretien Liberals screwed up badly and were clearly incompetent at managing politically motivated programs (HRDC, Sponsership, Gun Registery, etc).

That said, two wrongs don't make a right.

[Riverwind]

With the particularly damning evidence that was coming out of the Gomery Inquiry they really had no choice but to call for the government to go to election.  Had Belinda Stronach not crossed the aisle the day before they would've went on to victory in the vote against the budget amendment.

You attach too much altruism to the Conservatives motivations for calling an election. When Brault testimony first came out they ran to their pollsters - once they saw their support rising so they pushed for an election. If that blip in the polls did not occur then they would not have pushed for an election.

[cybercoma]

With the particularly damning evidence that was coming out of the Gomery Inquiry they really had no choice but to call for the government to go to election.  Had Belinda Stronach not crossed the aisle the day before they would've went on to victory in the vote against the budget amendment.

You attach too much altruism to the Conservatives motivations for calling an election. When Brault testimony first came out they ran to their pollsters - once they saw their support rising so they pushed for an election. If that blip in the polls did not occur then they would not have pushed for an election.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would be a waste of taxpayers money to call an election if it wasn't going to invoke change. If they called an election, knowing full well the Liberals would win it again...that would be completely careless on their part. So, of course that had something to do with it, but I think it's more a combination of the two.

[Riverwind]

It would be a waste of taxpayers money to call an election if it wasn't going to invoke change.  If they called an election, knowing full well the Liberals would win it again...that would be completely careless on their part.  So, of course that had something to do with it, but I think it's more a combination of the two.

I can agree with you on that point. However, I still feel the conservatives should have put more weight on the 'wrong' of giving the seperatists a strategic advantage vs. the 'wrong' of leaving an incompetant (at least in their opinion) gov't in power.

[bigdude]

Victory against the budget amendment that most Canadians want and voted for.

SURE!

[cybercoma]

Victory against the budget amendment that most Canadians want and voted for.

SURE! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hardly see how this budget amendment is what the majority of Canadians voted for. When you figure only about 61% of Canadians actually voted, the Liberals were only voted in by roughly 25% of Canadians. That means the NDP has a much smaller fraction of support....to the tune of under 10% of Canadians.

So, if you want to go around saying Canadians got the budget that almost 10% of them voted for....go right ahead, but don't try and sell this budget as something everyone wants when that's obviously not the case.

[Canuck E Stan]

Two wrongs don't make a right,right you are, but with Gomery not having any power to do anything but make a recommendation what exactly do you expect the inquiry to accomplish?

All I see is a "Yes, we have learned our lesson,sorry it won't happen again."

Meanwhile Quebecors have had enough of Canada and it's corruptiion and are ready to bail out. They obviously can't take the corruption they feel that English Canada has bestowed on them,even if happened right in Quebec by Quebecors. It all started in Ottawa ,that's in Ontario,that's in Canada.

This thinking is same of many eastern Canadians(east of Winnpeg) in regards to western Canada.If the ideas or the people come from Western Canada,it must not be in our interest. Those Westerners are after something,they're trying to take control. No wonder there is so much regionalism and mistrust between Canadians, what is this government doing to solve this problem other than a lot of talk.Canada is being dithered away by a government that has no solution or plan to keep it together, other than blame the opposition for all it's mistakes.

[bigdude]

Please stop with the nonsense. This is the platform that the Liberals campaigned on.

And as far as percentages of support are concerned, the only people that count are people that vote. Combine the Liberal, NDP, and Bloc support and the vaste majority of Canadians voted to support this revised budget. Who cares what the Conservatice support is - it only represents 30%, a substantable minority position and not worth listening to. Screw the minorities, right.

[cybercoma]

Please stop with the nonsense. This is the platform that the Liberals campaigned on.

And as far as percentages of support are concerned, the only people that count are people that vote. Combine the Liberal, NDP, and Bloc support and the vaste majority of Canadians voted to support this revised budget. Who cares what the Conservatice support is - it only represents 30%, a substantable minority position and not worth listening to.  Screw the minorities, right. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Screw the minority is exactly what you're saying when you say that people who were unable to or not willing to vote don't count.

As for the rest of your nonsense, I have no clue what you're trying to say.

Bill C-43 (the original Liberal budget) was voted for by the Liberals, NDP, Conservatives, Parrish, Kilgour and Cadman. The Bloc were the only ones to vote against it.

Bill C-48 (Layton's Budget) was the vote everyone watched and was supported by 50% of the seats in the house. If 61% of the population voted then that amounts to somehwere between 30-35% of Canadians supporting it.

So, 1 in 3 Canadians supported your tax and spend carelessness.

[willy]

Excuse me but the Bloc voted against the budget.

And this is as termed an NDP budget and only 16% voted for them.

What is it the Liberals stand for this week? Oh ya what it takes to stay in power without a vote.

[kimmy]

I think a lot of peeps found the tory reaction to Belinda.ca's departure very revealing.

One thing that struck me is that none of them accept that she might concientiously think bedding the Bloque is a bad idea.  What is the basis of this reaction?  I think it's because so many of todays tories have such a profound dislike for Canada that they simply can't conceive of anyone actually doing something out of the wish to protect Canada.

So, what has anyone else learned abotu the tories from thissad spectacle?

I can accept that she thought forcing an election at this time, or cooperating with the BQ to accomplish that goal, were bad strategic moves for the Conservatives. I somewhat agree. However, I think there's quite a leap in logic to get to "protecting the country".

What's she protecting the country from? An election right now? That might be a little tedious and even mess up some peoples' summer vacation plans, but I just don't believe that we're hanging by a thread.

To buy into your argument, I'd have to believe that an election right now is a threat to the country. I just don't see it. Sorry.

-k

[Argus]

Victory against the budget amendment that most Canadians want and voted for.

SURE! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Evidence? Any evidence? Any cite? Any survey? Any poll?

YOU are not most Canadians - thank God.

[PocketRocket]

There is something profoundly unseemly when you suggest Tory supporters dislike Canada.

I have never seen such tactics used in other countries except by insecure nationalists in reference to minority groups.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Umm......ever check out any American forum sites???

Most commonly the shoe is on the other foot.

Republicans most often accuse Democrats of being "un-American" or "anti-American", but I've also seen the reverse quite often.

[kimmy]

I think a lot of peeps found the tory reaction to Belinda.ca's departure very revealing.

ok, I've got one. I think that if the Tory reaction was revealing, the Liberal response was more so. They seem sincere in the belief that in preventing the Liberals from being defeated, Belinda.ca has saved the country or averted a crisis. To me, this is an interesting statement about how they perceive their party and the country.

-k

[cybercoma]

ok, I've got one. I think that if the Tory reaction was revealing, the Liberal response was more so.  They seem sincere in the belief that in preventing the Liberals from being defeated, Belinda.ca has saved the country or averted a crisis. To me, this is an interesting statement about how they perceive their party and the country.

-k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't stand seeing this anymore, it's driving me mental. They averted a Liberal Party crisis in the sense that they would have to call an election. I think they need to get a grip and realize that the Liberal Party is NOT "Canada".

[August1991]

There is something profoundly unseemly when you suggest Tory supporters dislike Canada.

I have never seen such tactics used in other countries except by insecure nationalists in reference to minority groups.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Umm......ever check out any American forum sites???

Most commonly the shoe is on the other foot.

Republicans most often accuse Democrats of being "un-American" or "anti-American", but I've also seen the reverse quite often.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not well familiar with American discussion forums. The few I've seen tend to be "You're an idiot." "You're a bigger idiot." "Am not" "Are too." I'm not certain what conclusion to draw from such discussions.

My comment here went beyond posters and to the general tendency of Liberals to accuse Conservatives of being unCanadian. I don't recall Bush Jnr or his aides ever suggesting that Kerry was not patriotic in the same way that some Canadians imply that Harper and his supporters are not Canadian.

But I understand your point and in particular the fact that "the shoe is on the other foot". (I recall Republicans pointing out that Kerry's wife speaks French... )

My comment about "insecure nationalists" was badly phrased. I really meant to say that accusations of misplaced loyalty are dangerous and in general, people who use such arguments lose credibility in my eyes.

I will add that the Liberals never use PM PM to make such accusations. The leader usually takes the high road and appears inclusive. Liberals go negative, but never the their leader.