Separastists Cheated on Referendum Results

[bigdude]

I heard on the news this past week that the separatists cheated on the Referendum vote. :angry:

[Canuck E Stan]

Bigdude,get a life,your becoming a bore.

[bigdude]

Montreal Gazette

Le Hir provides smoking gun in rejected-ballot scandal

The real crisis of our time has now been fully revealed. The statements of former Parti Quebecois cabinet minister Richard Le Hir are the smoking gun that proves the PQ implemented a deliberate scheme to sabotage the federalist and notably anglophone and allophone vote in the 1995 sovereignty referendum.

[bigdude]

PQ accused of considering Nazi-style tactics in 1995

In an interview, Mr. Le Hir said former PQ premier Jacques Parizeau invited him to read a study by Laval University professor Jean Routhier who, after the 1980 referendum, examined why many Quebeckers feared sovereignty.

Mr. Le Hir said the second part of the study proposed methods for "treating" those fears with what he called propaganda techniques similar to those developed by Joseph Goebbels, mastermind of Adolf Hitler's propaganda strategy in Nazi Germany.

"I said to the Premier's face that what I have read causes me great alarm. I'm very upset with what I've read. I can live with the first chapter, but as far as the second chapter is concerned, it's Goebbels," Mr. Le Hir said he told Mr. Parizeau.

Mr. Le Hir said the study influenced Mr. Parizeau's decision to establish regional commissions on sovereignty at which groups and individuals were invited to debate political independence in public meetings across the province before the referendum campaign.

Nothing to it, eh! :angry:

[Bakunin]

Federalist propaganda

Josée Legault

The Montréal Gazette May 20, 2005 Friday

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Gomery Commission is hammering federalists hard, so they trot out Richard Le Hir to argue that both sides cheated

Twenty-five years after the 1980 referendum, some things never change. Allegations of cheating are still flying, while federal Liberals continue to scare the rest of Canada with the "separatist threat."

The S-word is everywhere. Polls say a majority of Quebecers support sovereignty as the Gomery Commission looks into the corruption that went into fighting separatism. Since 1995, hundreds of millions in tax dollars, some of which ended up in Liberal coffers, went into a federalist visibility campaign to decrease support for sovereignty.

To counter revelations that are hurting the federalist cause, the latest fad is to say both sides were equally naughty, hoping to neutralize the specific ugliness of the sponsorship scandal.

Yesterday, former Parti Quebecois minister Richard Le Hir accused Jacques Parizeau of using Goebbels-like tactics before the 1995 referendum and of sending "scrutineer shock troops" to reject anglophone and allophone votes.

Given the absurdity of his attacks and the questionable quality of his past work as minister, if that's the best scarecrow federalists can come up with these days, La Presse editorialist Andre Pratte was bang on when he lamented the lack of credible spokespeople for the No side in Quebec.

Le Hir, whose resignation was followed by two investigations by the auditor-general on contracts his ministry handed outside the proper tending process, now pulls out Goebbels, Adolf Hitler's propaganda minister. In his latest salvo against Parizeau, Le Hir referred to a study directed in 1985 by a professor whose name he couldn't even recall.

Le Hir says Parizeau asked him to read this "psychological" profile of voters. Le Hir was shocked that it recommended to let Quebecers freely express their fears of sovereignty in public forums so they could confront them in the hope of calming a few of those fears.

Voters expressing themselves? What a scandal! If that's fascism, thousands of history books must be rewritten immediately. Decades ago, some federalists used to compare Camille Laurin to Goebbels. Now it's Parizeau's turn.

In a press conference, PQ MNA Jean-Pierre Charbonneau contradicted Le Hir. He recalled participating in a meeting with Le Hir, Parizeau, an adviser and the study's authors. He said Le Hir was actually enthusiastic about letting voters express themselves since this was "a very democratic approach."

Charbonneau also ridiculed Le Hir's allegation that the PQ caucus devised a strategy to send "scrutineer shock troops" to reject No votes. "Do you seriously think that if such a conspiracy had been planned, it would have been discussed openly at a caucus meeting?"

Given how often discussions in PQ caucus meetings are leaked to the media, he noted, such an illegal scheme surely would have come out somewhere.

More importantly, Charbonneau emphasized that after the close referendum results of 1995, many Quebecers were asking for a voter ID card to make sure only registered voters, federalists or sovereignists, would vote in the future.

When he became premier, Lucien Bouchard couldn't stomach the thought of such a card. As for Bernard Landry, he never fulfilled the commitment he made to create a voter ID card in a speech he gave at a PQ national council in the spring of 2001.

If Le Hir is interested in propaganda, then he should study its master on the federalist side, Pierre Trudeau. In 1964, four years before he became prime minister, Trudeau wrote: "One way to fight the attraction of separatism is to devote time, energy and enormous sums of money in the service of Canadian federalism."

Spending "enormous sums of money" is precisely what the Gomery Commission is probing. It's what Jean Chretien did before, during and after the last referendum. It's what Trudeau did before and during the 1980 referendum.

Looking back at 1980, we see that money was an important weapon, but not the only one. In 1992, we learned that Claude Morin, then Rene Levesque's intergovernmental affairs minister and top adviser on constitutional matters, was a paid RCMP informant.

That's the same Morin who convinced Levesque to go for two referendums: one for a "mandate to negotiate" sovereignty-association and one to approve the results of the negotiation. Had the first vote gone through, the period between the votes could have led to renewed federalism or a breakdown in negotiations.

Robert Bourassa, in his book Gouverner le Quebec, recalls how Morin was the only one on the plane back from Ottawa who advised him to sign Trudeau's Victoria Charter in 1971. Bourassa later refused because it didn't contain enough powers for Quebec.

If Le Hir wants to learn about propaganda, he should look into one of its classic methods. It's called infiltration. Trudeau was very good at it.

... If the PQ and rene levesque democratic legacy in quebec are considered nazi-style tactics, i wonder what are called the liberal tactics like using the secret service agency to spy, infiltrate and steal document of a democratic party, then trying to buy quebecers with canadian flags....

[The Terrible Sweal]

Bigdude,get a life,your becoming a bore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What kind of crap is this? You've been here for a total of how any posts, 5? And yet you are already stalking regular posters with crapshit comments like this?

Poor show.

[bigdude]

One of the main reasons the right wing nuts rarely obtain power is their personal attacks on people.

Look at Harper's attacks on Stronach when she bolted the Cons and no wonder she left with a leader like that.

[Newfie Canadian]

With all due respect Bakunin, Josée Legault is hardly an objective observer in this area.

[Guest eureka]

There is nothing new in this, other than Le Hir speaking openly. It was all common knowledge and it happened in 1980 as well. Then, also, Levesque stumped the province threatening social disorder if the referendum was lost. I contacted his Press Secretary at the time warning him of a reverse reaction in the event of his "social disorder." For the last couple of weeks he cooled the rhetoric.

The Quebec government has spent enormous sums on propaganda sonce the early 1970's. Monies that are subsidized by the rest of Canada, too. That is one of the things that is almost amusing about the hypocritical reaction to the "Sponsorship" affair.

Legault does not have much right in her response: but then, Legault never does get mush right. One of the things she is most wrong about is in saying that Laurin was often compared to Goebbels. Most of us thought of him more as Himmler.

I recall friends of mine who were a group that met him in his office during his consultations on Bill 101. They could not get past looking at the white of his knuckles as he gripped the edge of his desk in the attempt to contain his rage at "Anglophones" daring to oppose his race laws.

[Riverwind]

... If the PQ and rene levesque democratic legacy in quebec are considered nazi-style tactics, i wonder what are called the liberal tactics like using the secret service agency to spy, infiltrate and steal document of a democratic party, then trying to buy quebecers with canadian flags....

I think there is enough evidence that extremists on _both_ sides use underhanded tricks to try and make sure the vote goes their way. The only difference is the tools at their disposal. Federalists use the federal gov't treasury. The seperatists use the Provincial gov't treasury and manipulate the electoral system in Quebec. Both sides make heavy use of propoganda.

Bottom line is dividing a country is a nasty business that will bring out the worst in everyone. It is much better to work to reform the existing structures.

[Bakunin]

With all due respect Bakunin, Josée Legault is hardly an objective observer in this area.

At least more objective than real seguin

I think the difference is that at provincial level, quebec politician are way more respectfull of the democracy since the duplessis and religious years..

I just can't beleive thei qualify "nazi style tactics" because a report analyse why quebeckers voted "no" to the 1980 referendum, any sane politician will ask for such a report... its just sad to see how far the liberal supporter are able to go with their twisted mind to justify why they cheated... that they used undemocratic methods before, while and after the 1995 referendum... I think its showing no respect at all to the european who faced the real nazisme where people died and etc...

[Bakunin]

sry double post.

[bigdude]

Quebec good, Canada bad, yada, yada, yada.

[August1991]

The accusations reported in The Gazette came from Richard Le Hir. He was a minister in Parizeau's cabinet but resigned in 1995 and sat as an independant.

Curiously, in July 2002 he was named President of the Shipping Federation of Canada, a lobby group for Canadian shipping companies. CSL is of course an important member. (Le Hir is no longer president.)

----

Le Hir wrote a a long text recently. It is convoluted, philosophical:

Dix ans après la tenue du référendum, le combat pour le cœur et l'esprit des Québécois fait toujours rage. D'un côté comme de l'autre, fédéralistes et souverainistes essaient de rallier à leur cause ce tiers des québécois dont l'opinion fluctue selon les aléas de la conjoncture, favorisant tantôt les uns, tantôt les autres, au grand désespoir des stratèges des deux bords qui voudraient bien revendiquer victoire.

The text contains different allegations about supposed referendum irregularities.

If you see some diabolical plot in the fact Parizeau asked Le Hir to read a study of the "pyschology of Quebecers" (Le Hir has forgotten the names of the study's authors), then you might see an angle here. The Gazette picked up on the apparent fact, noted by Le Hir, that the PQ used union members to work as scrutineers at polling booths.

The purpose presumably was to limit the number of votes in Anglophone areas.

Quebec's Directeur des élections has refuted Le Hir's claims that there were any irregularities.

Une enquête serrée menée par le Directeur des élections du Québec après le référendum de 1995 dément les prétendues irrégularités soulevées par Richard Le Hir.

Ce dernier prétendait plus tôt aujourd'hui que le camp du Oui s'était concerté lors du référendum de 1995 pour mettre en place des stratégies douteuses en faveur de son option, notamment des mesures pour ralentir le déroulement du vote dans les comtés anglophones fédéralistes de l'ouest de Montréal.

-----

If the Liberal Party of Canada was acting with some principle in mind, I might be willing to go along with their tactics. Unfortunately, I can see none except the objective of keeping the PMO's power. In the process, they are doing damage to our institutions, and the genuine goodwill of ordinary people.

[Bakunin]

Quebec good, Canada bad, yada, yada, yada. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said canada, the conservative really tried hard to fix canada and the provincial liberal are as much clean as the pq. I don't think all the federal liberal are bad, but there seems to be a small group of people in this party wich are all but democratic and fair. The gomery comission is showing it very well.

While the sovreignist and provincial federalist have been almost totally clean in quebec since the duplessis years, the federal liberal have been unfair and using a wide variety of undemocratic tactics... You just have to look how much the federal liberal and provincial liberal are all but good friend... im pretty sure ethics explain why.

[bigdude]

I don't think it has anything to do with liberal, blocistes, conservative, etc., as these people are all in bed with each other.

All you have are a bunch of elites playing games for power at the average Canadian's expense.

Look Charest came from Mulroney's cabinet, and so did Bouchard. Levesque came from the Liberals, and now we have Stronach scenario. They are all the same.

[Bakunin]

I don't think it has anything to do with liberal, blocistes, conservative, etc., as these people are all in bed with each other.

All you have are a bunch of elites playing games for power at the average Canadian's expense.

Look Charest came from Mulroney's cabinet, and so did Bouchard.  Levesque came from the Liberals, and now we have Stronach scenario. They are all the same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your problably right about that, but not only they are mostly on the federal scene but they are also fighting each others inside the liberal federal party. Problably we will have to fight other similar group if we elect another party but we will clean the house for a moment and have a fresh start. In Quebec on the provincial scene after the insanly corrupt duplessis years, our most brilliant and very pro-democratic politician from all party emerged: (Lesage, Levesque, Ryan, Bourassa, Johnson, Bouchard ). My theory is that after touching one extreme, you end up touching the other extreme and it compensate.

[bigdude]

You know I believe that Morin was a spy for the feds, just like I believe some of Le Hir's accusations. Sad behaviour on both sides when we profess to be fighting for democratic values. I think whether or not you walk the talk is what matters most, the journey, not the destination, is key to successful living.

[Guest eureka]

Morin was an RCMP informant. He was also a fairly effective Minister for the PQ. The role of informant was possibly more of a peacekeeping one than any "treachery" to the PQ.

[Bakunin]

I think that Claude Morin was a good politician, either if he was a spy or not, he was a great democrat, and he surely calmed down the die hard independantist. I think his contribution to the pq made their way toward sovreignty very hard but surely very democratic.

What irritate me about Le Hir's accusation is his maladive love of democracy, i read the very long article he wrote and i dont think he lied at all, but he surely overeacted on most of the issue. When i talk about maladive love of democracy its because its an obsession for him, i think that if you want to trust someone, he his the kind of guy your looking for. But if he his very sensible, he surely overreact or asume bad intention to evrything. There is a theory, its called the godwin law, wich pretty much say people tend to exagerate evrything and overreact and when it happens, it always end up the "nazism" terms are invoked, well thats what happened with him.

The only act wich wasn't overreaction was when he heard the union slowed some voting poll. Wich he say was a tactics to counter the Liberal massive immigration before the referendum tactics.