One of the greatest moments in Canadian History

[ScottBrison]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/Tri...inja/Cadman.jpg

[Newfie Canadian]

I'm not too sure it will be remembered as one of the greatest moments, but it sure was interesting and exciting, if your into politics.

I'm impressed by this Cadman guy. He listened to his constituents, and voted the way they wanted him too.

Is that the value of having independant MP's?

[ScottBrison]

I'm not too sure it will be remembered as one of the greatest moments

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm positive it will be.

[I Miss Trudeau]

I'm impressed by this Cadman guy. He listened to his constituents, and voted the way they wanted him too.

And apparently rejected a bribe from that bastion of virtue and democracy, Mr. Harper himself.

[Newfie Canadian]

And apparently rejected a bribe from that bastion of virtue and democracy, Mr. Harper himself.

The cynic in me wondered what Martin and Dosanjh talked about when they met him last night, or whenever it was. Cadman stressed that there were no offers, but I can't believe they didn't dangle a carrot in front of him.

Maybe though, that's an advantage of being outside party politics.

I'm positive it will be.

I keep trying to fingd the right word for that picture.

Pivotal?

Suspenseful?

Climactic?

For me, the truly historic and meaningful picture is that of the Speaker of the House, Peter Milliken, doing something no other SotH did before: vote in a tie-breaking situation on a confidence mater.

Historic. Which makes your picture ScottBrison, pivotal.

[bigdude]

Cadman is doing what all MPs should be doing, listening to their constituents, as opposed to promoting their own political party's agenda.

Just imagine how much healthier it would be to have 100 Cadmans in the House of Commons instead of the losers like Duceppe, Martin & Harper!

[ScottBrison]

Cadman is doing what all MPs should be doing, listening to their constituents, as opposed to promoting their own political party's agenda.

Just imagine how much healthier it would be to have 100 Cadmans in the House of Commons instead of the losers like Duceppe, Martin & Harper! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You must be talking about Pat Martin from the NDP right?

[kimmy]

You must be talking about Pat Martin from the NDP right?

Given Bigdude's political leaning, I've got a hunch he meant Paul Martin. And I tend to agree with him.

Sure, Martin won today. But judged on the whole of his 18 months or so as PM, I don't think "loser" is far off. He's bent over forward to accommodate every premier who's come looking to make bank off the federal government. He bent over forwards for Jack Layton. He left Ralph Goodale and Judy Sgro to fend for themselves when the heat was on. The only thing he's done during his tenure as PM that shows any semblence of guts or fortitude was calling the Gomery commission... and even that was most likely just because he thought it was the only way to save his political skin. He turned an expected easy majority into the current barely functional fly-by-night operation we saw today.

Sure, he's a loser.

-k

{PM PM has the Midas touch... everything he touches turns into mufflers.}

[cybercoma]

{PM PM has the Midas touch... everything he touches turns into mufflers.}

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All I can hear in my head is that woman half-singing, "TRUST the midas touch"

[ScottBrison]

You must be talking about Pat Martin from the NDP right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Given Bigdude's political leaning, I've got a hunch he meant Paul Martin. And I tend to agree with him.

Sure, Martin won today. But judged on the whole of his 18 months or so as PM, I don't think "loser" is far off. He's bent over forward to accommodate every premier who's come looking to make bank off the federal government. He bent over forwards for Jack Layton. He left Ralph Goodale and Judy Sgro to fend for themselves when the heat was on. The only thing he's done during his tenure as PM that shows any semblence of guts or fortitude was calling the Gomery commission... and even that was most likely just because he thought it was the only way to save his political skin. He turned an expected easy majority into the current barely functional fly-by-night operation we saw today.

Sure, he's a loser.

-k

{PM PM has the Midas touch... everything he touches turns into mufflers.}

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

- He "co-operated" with the premiers and the NDP, to actually try to get something done. Unlike harper who, once he saw the polls go up made a desperate grab for power.

- Finally a right-leaner (I assume your crisis of conscience over Belinda.ca's defection has abated) gives the PM credit for calling the Gomery Inquiry! And how exactly is calling an inquiry that will hurt him politically "saving his political skin" ???

- As for losing the Majority, yeah that was all his fault too, Jean Cretien getting his bag-man (that's right I said man) Sheila Fraser to torpedo his government didn't have anything to do with it.

- And, the ONLY reason we're in this "barely functional fly-by-night" situation is because Harper had visions of unlimited power, and a chance to impose his perverted will on Canada dancing in his head and lunged at it like a drunk sailor who just spotted the last condom in an everything's a dollar whore house.

You may not like Martin or his policies but for God's sake open your eyes.

[Argus]

I'm not too sure it will be remembered as one of the greatest moments, but it sure was interesting and exciting, if your into politics.

I'm impressed by this Cadman guy. He listened to his constituents, and voted the way they wanted him too.

Is that the value of having independant MP's?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cadman is a former Reform MP who still believes in the party's grass roots desire to do as their constituents want. He makes no bones about this. He always said, even when he was a Reformer, that he would vote as this constituents wanted.

He is just one of those evil Reform guys all the left wingers so feared.

[PatM]

I'm not too sure it will be remembered as one of the greatest moments, but it sure was interesting and exciting, if your into politics.

I'm impressed by this Cadman guy. He listened to his constituents, and voted the way they wanted him too.

Is that the value of having independant MP's?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cadman is a former Reform MP who still believes in the party's grass roots desire to do as their constituents want. He makes no bones about this. He always said, even when he was a Reformer, that he would vote as this constituents wanted.

He is just one of those evil Reform guys all the left wingers so feared.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm in Mr. Cadman's riding and I genuinely like what he has done in politics - OTHER than joining the reform party. Reform was, and still is, an evil party in my eyes. They are Bush Pioneers in spirit, wanting to jump onto the "Help America Steal Iraqi Oil" bandwagon, abolish labour law, abolish government healthcare, and abolish pensions.

Mr. Cadman got into politics because his son was murdered by a young offender. He wanted to see changes to victim's rights and to the justice system when dealing with youth. He differs greatly from the Reform party (changed their name to conservatives - but they're are still, and always will be, the reform party) in that he advocates prevention and intervention - get to the kids before they go "bad" or, if they're already on the path - intervene and try to stear them away.

I think Cadman went Reform simply because no other party was willing to talk about youth crime. Reform saw the opportunity to rub it in the other party's faces and jumped at it. Once youth crime left the front of the national stage, they had no more use for him so they parachuted in someone else and shoved him aside.

[takeanumber]

Mr. Cadman got into politics because his son was murdered by a young offender. He wanted to see changes to victim's rights and to the justice system when dealing with youth. He differs greatly from the Reform party (changed their name to conservatives - but they're are still, and always will be, the reform party) in that he advocates prevention and intervention - get to the kids before they go "bad" or, if they're already on the path - intervene and try to stear them away.

I think Cadman went Reform simply because no other party was willing to talk about youth crime. Reform saw the opportunity to rub it in the other party's faces and jumped at it. Once youth crime left the front of the national stage, they had no more use for him so they parachuted in someone else and shoved him aside.

I tend to agree with that assessment.

He has a good character.

I think it's sad how the Cons treated him though, when he got cancer.

[I miss Reagan]

I'm not too sure it will be remembered as one of the greatest moments, but it sure was interesting and exciting, if your into politics.

I'm impressed by this Cadman guy. He listened to his constituents, and voted the way they wanted him too.

Is that the value of having independant MP's?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. I think Cadman showed good character by listening to his constituents. However I think most of the credit for the win should be given to the person who showed a complete lack of character by selling her self to the Libs. That person is the total opposite of Cadman.

[kimmy]

Sure, Martin won today. But judged on the whole of his 18 months or so as PM, I don't think "loser" is far off.  He's bent over forward to accommodate every premier who's come looking to make bank off the federal government. He bent over forwards for Jack Layton. He left Ralph Goodale and Judy Sgro to fend for themselves when the heat was on. The only thing he's done during his tenure as PM that shows any semblence of guts or fortitude was calling the Gomery commission... and even that was most likely just because he thought it was the only way to save his political skin. He turned an expected easy majority into the current barely functional fly-by-night operation we saw today.

- He "co-operated" with the premiers and the NDP, to actually try to get something done.

He "co-operated" with the NDP? Jack Layton PWNED him. That the NDP budget amendments are popular with many voters reflects well on the NDP. But let us not forget that it took the political gun to his head of Brault testimony and Harper threats to get them in place.

The Liberals were very happy with their initial budget without the amendment; I'm sure a Liberal enthusiast like yourself was watching the Liberal convention with all the back-patting over Ralphie's new budget.

Martin: "We're not making any budget deals!"

Goodale: "We're not making any budget deals!"

Martin: "We're not making any budget deals!"

Goodale: "We're not making any budget deals!"

(...Brault testimony + subsequent poll...)

Martin: "We're open to budget deals!"

Goodale: " .... whaaaaa?"

And then they cut the deal with the NDP at a meeting that Goodale wasn't even invited to. Not only did they get pushed into it by a small party, they also made their own finance minister look like an imbecile in the process.

I suppose if by cooperation you mean getting strong-armed, and by "get things done" you mean get bullied into actions that you never intended to take, then you could say that Martin "cooperated with the NDP to get things done." I don't think an objective observer would view it quite that way, though.

He "co-operated" with the premiers? Are you referring to the health accord?

Let's keep in mind that for 2 years prior to that, the provinces had been airing attack ads aimed at the federal government's funding of healthcare:

"The government used to fund 50% of healthcare costs. Now the government funds 16% of healthcare costs."

The government's only response was: "...please stop showing those ads..."

After once again fighting an election where they portrayed themselves as the saviors of healthcare, the Liberals find themselves in a minority position where for the first time in ages they face the potential of being held accountable for the promises they made. After the fedz attempted to soft-pedal the provinces with some token concessions, the provinces banded together in display of public nastiness and rolled Martin, using his own campaign promises as the jackboots. However, they did emerge with a shiny new health accord, so I guess it's "promise made, promise kept." Martin has, at least, restored a portion of the money that he slashed when he was finance minister.

What about the rest of his relations with the provinces? First there was the confrontation with Danny Williams, where Martin's solution was to give him whatever he wanted to avoid a messy confrontation. Then Dalton McGuinty comes calling. "We in Ontario face a $23 billion fiscal imbalance, and we would like some concessions like the Newfies got." Martin's response? "This talk of a $23 billion fiscal imbalance is completely wrong. Here, have $6 billion." And last week, Alberta's intergovernmental affairs department says "You know, we've been looking at the deal Ontario got... and like Ontario, we in Alberta contribute a lot to confederation. If they deserve some concessions, it seems like we should get some concessions too..." and promptly a half-billion dollar cheque arrives in King Ralph's hands.

And then there's Quebec. Paul Martin's national unity catch-phrase is "Asymmetrical federalism," which is basically just a euphemism for "give the Quebec government whatever they ask for to try to fend off the separatists."

I find it utterly hilarious that the people on this forum who are boosters of the "strong central government" vision of Canada somehow feel that Paul Martin is the guy who to enforce that ideal. What's funnier than that? During the campaign he gave us some rostrums about believing in "a Canada that speaks with one voice, not ten." ...and then proceeds to cave to the provinces every single time they've come calling. Your "strong central government" is being led by a man who has about as much backbone as Spongebob Squarepants.

Unlike harper who, once he saw the polls go up made a desperate grab for power.

Considering your party called snap elections in 2000 and 2004 because the polls looked good, you might want to drop this one from your book of handy attacks.

- Finally a right-leaner (I assume your crisis of conscience over Belinda.ca's defection has abated) gives the PM credit for calling the Gomery Inquiry! And how exactly is calling an inquiry that will hurt him politically "saving his political skin" ???

That's quite simple. What was the alternative? Try to downplay it? And make it look like he's trying to help cover-up for Chretien's posse? PM PM recognized quite early that the only way to separate himself from the scandal was to take strong action. This way he gets to say "Look, I called the inquiry. I did what's right."

I do give him credit for doing it. It's something his dirtbag predecessor wouldn't have done, and in my mind is proof enough that Martin is ten times the man Chretien is. (although, coming from me this is faint praise indeed.)

As an aside, I think trying to cover up and downplay the scandal would have been utterly disastrous for the Liberals. It might have helped short-term, but long-term this stuff would have come out. Enterprising journalists would have got into it, and might have presented it in a lot less balanced way than Judge Gomery is going to do. And then what happens? Not only does the scandal torpedo the party, it also torpedos Martin for trying to cover it up.

- As for losing the Majority, yeah that was all his fault too, Jean Cretien getting his bag-man (that's right I said man) Sheila Fraser to torpedo his government didn't have anything to do with it.

This is truly rich. Just a couple of days after the Liberal-boosters on the board are wetting their pants in outrage over sexist comments directed at Belinda.ca, you're insulting Sheila Fraser in sexist terms. Awesome.

If you check around, I think you'll find that the Liberals had a comfortable lead in the polls at the time Martin called the election, and that most observers were predicting a Liberal majority at the time. It was an inept campaign, that even many Liberals were pissed at Martin and his advisers about, that cost them.

I don't think there's much mileage for you in attacking Fraser's character, either. I think most Canadians believe she's got an awful lot more integrity than anybody on Parliament Hill.

- And, the ONLY reason we're in this "barely functional fly-by-night" situation is because Harper had visions of unlimited power, and a chance to impose his perverted will on Canada dancing in his head and lunged at it like a drunk sailor who just spotted the last condom in an everything's a dollar whore house.

The reason this government looks like a fly-by-night operation is Martin's desperation to avoid an election. He's created the appearance that he'll make a deal with anybody it'll keep him from going to the polls for another few weeks.

If you're convinced that Harper's doing something underhanded or unusual for an opposition leader in a minority situation, why don't you look up how Real Canadian Hero ™ Pierre Elliot Trudeau worked with Joe Clark's minority government.

You may not like Martin or his policies but for God's sake open your eyes.

I actually do like Paul Martin and his policies. I just think he's been a complete flop as a leader. Good guy, bad leader. If you can't see his shortcomings, then maybe you're the one who should open your eyes. You've been blinded by loyalty.

-k