Conservatives sink to new low.

[August1991]

1. Harper's comments about the Liberals hoping that 2 Cons die by next week. Truly sickening.

This is how Kinsella responded:

There is much tut-tutting North of the Queensway, this morning, about Stephen Harper's anger that the Paul Martin regime may be delaying the confidence vote in such a way that it adversely affects the health of two Conservative MPs now undergoing cancer treatment. The Martinettes were immediately thereafter on a full media campaign, talking points in hand, all soberly declaring Harper's allegation "low," and so on. Is it?

Well, I recall one Friday evening, a couple years ago, when I almost quit the Liberal Party of Canada. It was the night that the Martin cabal took over the riding association of former cabinet minister Herb Dhaliwal, knowing (a) Dhaliwal was out of the country and ( his wife was dying of cancer. I had witnessed a lot political thuggery, to be sure, but I had never before seen anything as disgusting, and as inhuman, as that. It was only a friend in Ottawa who talked me out of quitting.

These are the reasons PM PM is giving for delaying the vote:

"We've called for the confidence vote on Thursday. The reasons that we set out are very clear. There is an election in British Columbia on Monday. The Queen is arriving on Tuesday and Wednesday. And I think that in terms of the people of Saskatchewan, the people of Alberta, in terms of their centenary, I think it's very important that we respect that," Mr. Martin answered.

2. The Vets Bill. Harper and Dupe both agreed to get it through. Then they pull a non-confidence vote. Disgusting. They could have at least waited to get the vets bill through. Truly disgusting.

The reasons Vets are Vets is because of democracy. And if the Vet bill is so important, why wasn't it passed before? Can it not wait some more?

3. Revelations at Gomery with that poor man breaking down in tears because he was threatened with physical violence. Absolutely disgusting, shocking and appauling. I think this goes way beyond the Liberal party, right back to Alfonso's family.

Alfonso Gagliano sat around the same cabinet table as PM PM for eight years. Gagliano was the Quebec bagman and Martin was the lead Quebec politico. PM PM blaming Gagliano is like Richard Nixon blaming John Dean.

Sadly, we only have a choice between a man who is trying to clean up his party-- but only to save his own skin, and man who wants to wipe his butt on the Charter.

WTF? Do you think PM PM wants to clean up his party?

The BQ was aware of the broad outlines of this scandal since the late 1990s. It was the dogged efforts of Daniel Leblanc in the G&M and several hundred BQ questions in the House that finally forced the Liberal hand. Even then, PM PM shut down the Public Affairs committee to hold an election. Where would we be now if PM PM had won a majority?

PM PM is purely in damage control. He's a political professional manipulating a scandal.

You know, the Liberals and the NDP are the only two parties who now realize that party's are now public utilities, and want to bring their parties out of the darkness and into the transparent light...moves which have been opposed by the Cons.

Mark Steyn had a piece the other day which is the best response to your pathetic poseur cynicism, TalkNumb.

That's what the Liberals have done to Canada's political culture, which is why you run into large numbers of Canadians who are entirely indifferent to Gomery and equally large numbers who think it the height of sophistication to sneer knowingly that "everyone does it." There's no one quite so naive as a faux cynic who can't wait to fall in line with the herd of iconoclasts parroting the "everybody does it" line: it's the intellectual equivalent of those teenagers who express their individuality by wearing exactly the same clothes as everyone else--like Warren Kinsella in his Ramone-groupie days.

I think that this is the saddest result of what has happened to English Canada over the past several decades: the rank dulling of minds and the grasping timidity of the rentier.

[Bro]

Let us not forget the great words of the now independant,liberal supporting parrish,carolyn I think is her first name,it had some very uncaring words about the cancer stricken mp's ,with her labeling them as timmy's.This woman is a blight on all Canadians,and should be thrown out of office at the earliest possible date,another reason for the opposition to force an election sooner rather than later.

[The Terrible Sweal]

... WTF?  Do you think PM PM wants to clean up his party?

Sure. I think so. The Liberal Party has obviously been victimized by criminal infiltration. Martin has been consistent in attemptng to root it out.

Even then, PM PM shut down the Public Affairs committee to hold an election. 

Bull. How did he "shut it down"?

[Guest eureka]

"I think that this is the saddest result of what has happened to English Canada over the past several decades: the rank dulling of minds and the grasping timidity of the rentier"

What does this mean, August? Is it the true colours of a closet separatist showing?

Dulling of minds is chiefly a Quebec phenomenon. There, after almost two generations of separatist propaganda and more generations of learning the "victim" pose, many Quebeckers have no conception of truth or reality. Corruption is an "honourable" tradition of Quebec politics.

[Bro]

[The Liberal Party has obviously been victimized by criminal infiltration.]

And you obviously know then,that this could only happen with inside help from the party itself.So,if you know names,then start giving names,and let the blame lay where you think it should.Keep in mind,this would have to include chretien or martin,or both,either way,the liberal party needs a time out to realize their governing styles are a little less than reputable.

[The Terrible Sweal]

And you obviously know then,that this could only happen with inside help from the party itself.

"Inside help" obviously, but "from the party itself" is a ridiculous notion.

So,if you know names,then start giving names,and let the blame lay where you think it should.

This is why Gomery should be allowed to finish the job.

[willy]

This is why Gomery should be allowed to finish the job.

Why Gomery will not name names. He will only make recommendations for change. In fact his scope does not allow him to accuse anyone.

The Liberals would like nothing more than to have his report of recommendations and run on implementing them. The fact that we can't trust a word they say doesn't matter.

[Bro]

"Inside help" obviously, but "from the party itself" is a ridiculous notion.

lol.Where else would the "inside"help come from,if not from someone [or groups of people] within the liberal party?Talk about liberal speak,maybe the press isn't biased,just totally confused and lost in lllllliberal lllland!

[kimmy]

These are the reasons PM PM is giving for delaying the vote:

"We've called for the confidence vote on Thursday. The reasons that we set out are very clear. There is an election in British Columbia on Monday. The Queen is arriving on Tuesday and Wednesday. And I think that in terms of the people of Saskatchewan, the people of Alberta, in terms of their centenary, I think it's very important that we respect that," Mr. Martin answered.

Well, as an Albertan, I'm quite honored that PM Martin is saving the confidence vote so that it can be part of the royal visit and centennial celebrations.

... WTF?  Do you think PM PM wants to clean up his party?

Sure. I think so. The Liberal Party has obviously been victimized by criminal infiltration. Martin has been consistent in attemptng to root it out.

Victimized in the same sense that the James Gang was victimized by bank robberies?

-k

[ScottBrison]

Let us not forget the great words of the now independant,liberal supporting parrish,carolyn I think is her first name,it had some very uncaring words about the cancer stricken mp's ,with her labeling them as timmy's.This woman is a blight on all Canadians,and should be thrown out of office at the earliest possible date,another reason for the opposition to force an election sooner rather than later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I actually agree with you there, but the difference is I think she should be thrown out and a Liberal put in her place

[ScottBrison]

"Inside help" obviously, but "from the party itself" is a ridiculous notion.

lol.Where else would the "inside"help come from,if not from someone [or groups of people] within the liberal party?Talk about liberal speak,maybe the press isn't biased,just totally confused and lost in lllllliberal lllland!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't imagine much better than hearing the absolutle silence from all you right wingers when the government wins that vote.

[willy]

Scott, didn't you hear Layton said he would sit out members if the Conservative members are to sick to vote.

Let's then wait for the big vote in 6 weeks and see who has the gigles.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Sure.  I think so.  The Liberal Party has obviously been victimized by criminal infiltration.  Martin has been consistent in attemptng to root it out.

Victimized in the same sense that the James Gang was victimized by bank robberies?

More like a company victimized by wrongdoing officers ad employees. Odd how the big business brains of the tories don't seem to grasp this concept. Or wait, maybe they actually do have some shred of the wits they aspire to. That must mea they are -gasp!- being disingenuous for political reasons! Imagine that.

[Guest eureka]

Gomery will name names. The Inquiry is to establish whether there was wrongdoing; what was done; and who did it. It is not a criminal court and can take no steps beyond that.

What more would you want. I know that Conservatives and Blockheads would like to reconstitute a Star Chamber in Canada but the rest of us are more interested in justice.

[takeanumber]

1. The reply to my horror with respect to Harper saying that the Libs want 2 cons to die was: well Warren Kinsella says the Libs are evil.

Well, we already knew the Chretien ppl had an evil streak.

Alright -- and this justifies Harper's comments how?

2. The reply to the Vets bill: Can't it wait?

A better question is: Why can't the Cons wait and keep their word?

3. Gagliano: Yeah, he sat at the cabinet table for 8 years. Horrendous.

It doesn't change the allegation that a poor man had his health threatened by some thug.

-------

For intents and purposes, the image of Italian-Canadians has been very much battered, first by the RAI scandal, and then by Gagliano.

For the Cons to come out with that Librano$ poster, well, that was deliberately insensitive. I think they have the right to do it, I'm sure the Cons don't need the Italian-Canadian vote anyway.

[willy]

What more would you want. I know that Conservatives and Blockheads would like to reconstitute a Star Chamber in Canada but the rest of us are more interested in justice.

I want an election. It is time to let us all have a say on this government. If you still want them you should get the chance to say so.

It is beyond question that there is a scandal. The question all Liberals will have to ask: Is their own party to be trusted to clean itself out or should we vote them out and force them to clean house? The PCs went down to 2 seats in 92 and they deserved it. Some would like to say same party but after 13 years and all the changes in leadership the party has changed. It is time the Liberals go through the same process.

The Conservatives have moved to the middle and if the NDP can do the same and moderate Canadians will still be well represented. All the lefties on the forum I encourage you to work hard for Jack to get some quality candidates. The Conservatives will present a good team. It would please me like nothing else than to see the Liberals fall through the middle.

[August1991]

1. The reply to my horror with respect to Harper saying that the Libs want 2 cons to die was: well Warren Kinsella says the Libs are evil.

Well, we already knew the Chretien ppl had an evil streak.

Alright -- and this justifies Harper's comments how?

TalkNumb, if you had read Kinsella's post, you would realize that he showed that Martin took advantage of Dhalliwal's absence (due to his wife's health) to obtain control of the riding during his "leadership" race. IOW, Martin (or his minions) has done such before. En passant, Kinsella doesn't say Libs are evil - he says Martinites are evil.

There are now reports that Martin's office made enquiries about MPs' medical treatment.

Politics is politics but I think there's a line of decency. The NDP to its credit has offered to pair for any votes. Harper is either suspicious/paranoid - depending on your point of view.

2. The reply to the Vets bill: Can't it wait?

A better question is: Why can't the Cons wait and keep their word?

We were both wrong. It was passed by the House and I believe the Senate now too.

3. Gagliano: Yeah, he sat at the cabinet table for 8 years. Horrendous.

It doesn't change the allegation that a poor man had his health threatened by some thug.

Your insouciance is sometimes astounding, TalkNumb. The poor man you refer to is Dezainde, an assistant to Jacques Saada, a current sitting Martinite minister. His "show" yesterday was cooked up by the PMO in an effort to imply that Adscam was caused by a "rogue cell" controlled by Gagliano.

I suggest you pay attention to this guy's testimony today since he worked beside Morselli (the guy who supposedly played the heavy). [His name is Wajsman (prounouced Wiseman) and I'm sorry the link is in French, but I have noticed that Quebec journalists and the French press are covering this much better than English.]

For intents and purposes, the image of Italian-Canadians has been very much battered, first by the RAI scandal, and then by Gagliano.

For the Cons to come out with that Librano$ poster, well, that was deliberately insensitive. I think they have the right to do it, I'm sure the Cons don't need the Italian-Canadian vote anyway.

I would say off hand that the Italian community of Montreal is far, far more upset with Paul Martin than with Stephen Harper right now. Fortunately for PM PM, his riding is not in Montreal North.

-----

Yes, there is an ugly internecine war going on between Liberals right now. But it's a war fuelled by PM PM - after the fact - as his solution to the public revelations of what the Liberals did in the 1990s.

I have made several comparisons to Richard Nixon. I think they're apt. Confronted with public reports of wrongdoing, Nixon isolated the scandal and tried to find fallguys. The fact of the matter is that Nixon was responsible for the wrongdoing from the very beginning. He ordered it.

Even when Nixon resigned, he still did not admit to prior knowledge of the Watergate break-in.

PM PM will never admit to any knowledge of how money was raised and used by the Liberal Party.

[Guest eureka]

Your wanting an election is not sufficient reason for subverting the democratic process.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Nice drive-by smear, there, August. Why stop with Nixon though? Why not explore the paralels you no doubt detect between PM and Stalin?

[takeanumber]

Good replies:

TalkNumb, if you had read Kinsella's post, you would realize that he showed that Martin took advantage of Dhalliwal's absence (due to his wife's health) to obtain control of the riding during his "leadership" race. IOW, Martin (or his minions) has done such before. En passant, Kinsella doesn't say Libs are evil - he says Martinites are evil.

There are now reports that Martin's office made enquiries about MPs' medical treatment.

Politics is politics but I think there's a line of decency. The NDP to its credit has offered to pair for any votes. Harper is either suspicious/paranoid - depending on your point of view.

Granted, I'm not thrilled with Martin over his behaviour during the Chretien years.

How does that make Harper's comments that Martin wants 2 MP's to die before Thursday, any more exusable?

As for the reports...not sure if its true.

Moreover, Harper didn't feel any sympathy for the Liberal who was at a funeral, or Chuck Cadman...so, if we accept the notion that Martin is satan, what about Harper's behaviour?

Disguting behaviour is still disgusting behaviour, even when it's set against a Parliamentary backdrop.

We were both wrong. It was passed by the House and I believe the Senate now too.

The supposed vote of non-confidence was on Monday, before the Vets bill had made it to the Senate. When the Cons voted to adjurn on Weds, they stalled the Vets bill in the Senate because the House, for some reason, had to be in session for it to get over there.

So yes, in a way we were wrong, but to be more accurate, Harper and Dupe went back on their word with respect to the Vets.

See what I mean about Conservatives wrapping themselves up in the flag with the Vets, and then turning around and disregarding them?

our insouciance is sometimes astounding, TalkNumb. The poor man you refer to is Dezainde, an assistant to Jacques Saada, a current sitting Martinite minister. His "show" yesterday was cooked up by the PMO in an effort to imply that Adscam was caused by a "rogue cell" controlled by Gagliano.

I suggest you pay attention to this guy's testimony today since he worked beside Morselli (the guy who supposedly played the heavy). [His name is Wajsman (prounouced Wiseman) and I'm sorry the link is in French, but I have noticed that Quebec journalists and the French press are covering this much better than English.]

So it was all cooked up?

Proof?

I would say off hand that the Italian community of Montreal is far, far more upset with Paul Martin than with Stephen Harper right now. Fortunately for PM PM, his riding is not in Montreal North.

Italian Canadians live in other communities aside from Montreal North.

The Italian Canadians I've spoken with are mortified by what went on, and yeah, they're mad about the Librano$ posters, and at the Liberal party.

Disgusting behaviour is still disgusting behaviour in spite of 'what the other guys are doing'.

I have made several comparisons to Richard Nixon. I think they're apt. Confronted with public reports of wrongdoing, Nixon isolated the scandal and tried to find fallguys. The fact of the matter is that Nixon was responsible for the wrongdoing from the very beginning. He ordered it.

Even when Nixon resigned, he still did not admit to prior knowledge of the Watergate break-in.

PM PM will never admit to any knowledge of how money was raised and used by the Liberal Party.

One fallacy:

Martin called the inquiry, and I genuinely believe that the MArtin camp wants to wipe the deck with Chretien.

Let him.

Then let the Martin reforms go all the way to make parties a public utility.

You let the Cons in now, nothing will change. You saw how old Conservative crooks weaseled their way in before, they'll do it again.

All the parties suck, we gotta reform the system. At least Martin is trying.

What's Harper's plan?

[ScottBrison]

Scott, didn't you hear Layton said he would sit out members if the Conservative members are to sick to vote.

Let's then wait for the big vote in 6 weeks and see who has the gigles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

153-153, 152-152, 151-151, Makes no difference to me, the speaker still casts the deciding vote

[August1991]

Nice drive-by smear, there, August. Why stop with Nixon though? Why not explore the paralels you no doubt detect between PM and Stalin?

C'mon. The stakes were much higher with Nixon than our federal government. And we are far, far from Stalin. By comparison, we are looking at the ego-trips of a student council election.

The pressure on Harper and Martin is immense right now. But it's nothing like the pressure on Nixon in June 1974.

Stalin? I recall walking around the fence of his dacha some 50 years later and I could feel the weight. No comparison.

One fallacy:

Martin called the inquiry, and I genuinely believe that the MArtin camp wants to wipe the deck with Chretien.

Nixon appointed Archibald Cox - then got rid of him (as Chretien wants to do with Gonery). Means nothing except another piece on the chessboard.

I too have wondered why PM PM went along with Gomery. I think as you TalkNumb that he wanted to use it to establish his own supremacy in the Liberal Party. (Chretien would never have chosen such a method; we saw what Chretien made of Gomery.)

I would say off hand that the Italian community of Montreal is far, far more upset with Paul Martin than with Stephen Harper right now. Fortunately for PM PM, his riding is not in Montreal North.

Italian Canadians live in other communities aside from Montreal North.

Of course they do. Lasalle-Emard is a curious riding, but it's not typically Italian-Canadian.

ndlr: Paul Martin said that Alfonso Gagliano is not a Martin Liberal.

So it was all cooked up?

Proof?

Cooked up? No. It's being managed by two sides.

In the Senate Watergate Hearings (sorry, but it's the best comparison I can think of), appearances of pro-Nixon witnesses were managed. Dean managed on his own. Then some (such as Butterfield) were afraid of sins of commission (but not omission)! IOW, there is spin on both sides but a bias towards telling the truth only if asked - no direct lies.

In Gomery, the same thing. Hey, this is how some people view politics.