When Should Harper Pull the Plug?

[I Miss Trudeau]

The Mullahs have no bearing on my statement.

Don't even try to point out the error, Eureka. That particular fallacy is far too ingrained in the minds of a lot of the right wing posters on this forum for you to ever change.

China is worse than Isreal, so Israel is good.

Communists killed more people than the US, so the US didn't kill anyone.

The Christian Right can't be fundamentalist, because the Mullahs are far more fundamentalist.

[kimmy]

What scares me is the ignorance of some who will be able to vote.

The Mullahs have no bearing on my statement. It is certain Protestant fundamental (and evangeliicals) who believe in a "war of all agaonst all" in the last days when they, the elct, will be taken up to heaven. They want it and they are the fastest growing belief - far greater growth than Islam. They are growing in Canada too.

I considered just humouring you, and replying "very well, then do you imagine these apocalyptic Protestant fundamentalists adopting policies granting equal rights to gay couples, or to not table abortion legislation."

But, I decided I'm not in any mood to humour you. Think back to your statement about respecting people who respect you, and then ponder how much respect you deserve from me after what you just wrote to me.

And since I am in no mood to humour you, I call "bullshit" on the claim you make about the explosive growth of apocalyptic Protestant fundamentalists. I find it doubtful. I'll regard it as a complete fabrication until you support this claim with some credible information.

I know that you disdain being asked to support any claim you make, as it makes you tired or takes away from the valuable time you need to fight provincialists or whatever it is. But In this instance, I'm afraid I must ask. If being unaware of this information makes one too ignorant to be allowed to vote, then it's obviously much to important to just rely on hearsay. Before you ask: no, I won't be satisfied unless you can give me a more concrete source than something you heard on a radio show one time, or something you overheard while you were getting plastered at the Legion hall.

Luckily, that information should be easy for you to provide. If it's such common knowledge that you deem people who didn't know it to be too ignorant to vote, then I'm sure this information must be plastered all over the web. I'm not asking for a complete bibliography, just two or three credible sources will do.

I guess I must be quite uninformed... I hadn't believed that *any* Christian denominations or sects were among the world's most rapidly growing religions-- particularly in the poorer regions of the world as you indicated. I hadn't realized that these apocalyptic fundamentalists you speak of made up any significant number amongst the faith. I'm really quite surprised to hear it. Which is why I require some support for this claim: frankly it sounds like fiction to me.

-kim.

[Guest eureka]

I don't believe I wrote toyou, Kimmy. However, before you take that tone, you should inform yourself about these things.

Harper's is one very credible source. I would think. In recent months, there have been articles in that magazine about what I posted. Fundamentalst Protestants are expected to be in the majority in South America within about twenty years - I think that was the time frame but don't recall precisely the daye given.

Poor cities in North Africa are seeing an explosive growth as the Fundamentalists (along with the Wahabbis) are actually forming a parallel government structure since governments cannot look after the poor. These religionists are doing it and gaining the converts.

These were in different articles.

The Pentagon, no less, and that was in the news not a magazine has made a report containing a scenario of the all out wars that may be a consequence of unadressed climate change.

Will that do?

[kimmy]

The Mullahs have no bearing on my statement.

Don't even try to point out the error, Eureka. That particular fallacy is far too ingrained in the minds of a lot of the right wing posters on this forum for you to ever change.

China is worse than Isreal, so Israel is good.

Communists killed more people than the US, so the US didn't kill anyone.

The Christian Right can't be fundamentalist, because the Mullahs are far more fundamentalist.

I point out that the positions adopted at the recent CPC policy convention are odd positions for any "fundamentalist" group to adopt.

-k

[kimmy]

I don't believe I wrote toyou, Kimmy. However, before you take that tone, you should inform yourself about these things.

As you prefaced a reply to me with that comment, yes: I believe you did write it to me.

As for your information, I will go have a look at it.

-k

[BQSupporter]

Harper should pull the plus now along with the BQ. How long can a person who is decent and of consience support this government that is corrupt to its core.

End this farce now and let the people have their final say on this scandel.

[I Miss Trudeau]

I point out that the positions adopted at the recent CPC policy convention are odd positions for any "fundamentalist" group to adopt.

As I previously pointed out, the official CPC policy is not worth the paper it is printed on.

[kimmy]

As I previously pointed out, the official CPC policy is not worth the paper it is printed on.

I get the impression that you people are afraid that immediately after winning an election, Harper would tear off a latex mask to reveal that he's actually ... Jerry Falwell or Jack Van Impe or something.

Harper's is one very credible source. I would think. In recent months, there have been articles in that magazine about what I posted. Fundamentalst Protestants are expected to be in the majority in South America within about twenty years - I think that was the time frame but don't recall precisely the daye given.

I was unable to find any reference to the article you're referring to, and I don't have a subscription to that magazine. Perhaps, if you had a title or something, I could look for it next time I'm at a library.

However, given the overwhelmingly Catholic nature of South America-- 80 to 90% in most countries-- I remain skeptical that you read what you think you read, or claim to have read. You're describing the religious conversion of literally hundreds of millions of people in less than a generation. Does that seem plausible? Personally, I don't find it very plausible. I'll believe it when I see it.

Poor cities in North Africa are seeing an explosive growth as the Fundamentalists (along with the Wahabbis) are actually forming a parallel government structure since governments cannot look after the poor. These religionists are doing it and gaining the converts.

Ah. Those wacky protestants, raising hell in North Africa (along with the Wahhabis).

Dude, Muslims comprise 90+% of the populace of North Africa. From the reading I've done, the militias and movements involved in conflict and unrest in the region are likewise overwhelmingly fundamentalist Muslim (I can't vouch for Wahhabi) in nature.

Mentioning the Muslims as if they were just an aside to the issue just makes you look desperate.

-k

[kimmy]

EDITED TO ADD:  Harper should wait for the inquiry to finish, which I understand is one month.  I doubt the people will change their minds by then.

That's probably a reasonable compromise. Waiting to the end of the testimony lets people hear all the information; surely they don't need Gomery's analysis to tell them what it means.

Compromise? The vast majority of Canadians want to wait for the Report.

What question were they asked? If the options were "election right now", or "wait for the report", then no doubt most prefer to wait for the report. Personally, I believe that people wish to hear the facts before an election. That would be the end of the testimony. Upon hearing the end of the testimony, do Canadians really need to wait for Gomery to tell them how to feel about what they've heard?

Who should they compromise with??

How about the large portion of Canadians who answered "no" when asked if the Liberals still have the moral authority to govern?

-k

[I Miss Trudeau]

I get the impression that you people are afraid that immediately after winning an election, Harper would tear off a latex mask to reveal that he's actually ... Jerry Falwell or Jack Van Impe or something.

Your nonsensical attack aside, I think I made it pretty clear that I don't think Harper would introduce the legislation. It is far more likely a "rogue" mp (some backbencher from Calgary-Bayou) would introduce such a bill.

The problem with shrieking about MP freedom on issues of conscience is that it renders any official policy on such issues meaningless. Enforcing MP's to vote the party line is the only way to build a credible party platform.

[Guest eureka]

Cathilicism in South America is losing adherents at a rate of 8000 a day or week - I don't recall which. Fundamental Protestantism is gaining rapidly.

Pentecostals, specifically, around the world are now estimated at somewhere in the area of 400/500 million - again I do not recall anywhere near precisely. They are active along with but not joined with the Wahabi's in some very poor cities. The example give was Morocco where the constituted government had no means of caring for the poor areas.

The Pentecostals were filling the void and gaining something more than mere converts.

I will look back through my old Harpers and if I still have the ones with articles, I will give you a title; O ye of lottle faith.

[Argus]

I point out that the positions adopted at the recent CPC policy convention are odd positions for any "fundamentalist" group to adopt.

As I previously pointed out, the official CPC policy is not worth the paper it is printed on.

This seems to be an odd position for someone with your moniker and apparent political affiliation to take. After all, Trudeau was a masterful liar whose word was worth nothing and his promises less than nothing. Chretien did him one better, by actually writing down the promises in a red book before ignoring them. Martin is as a good a liar as either, but simply shouts the lies in a louder and more self righteous tone of voice.

And you are going to snivel about the honesty of tory platforms because, of all things, they promise to allow their MPs to have a little more freedom of conscience in their votes than the trained and bribed seals of the Liberal Party caucus?

[Argus]

The problem with shrieking about MP freedom on issues of conscience is that it renders any official policy on such issues meaningless. Enforcing MP's to vote the party line is the only way to build a credible party platform.

Your apparent strong belief in how valuable authoritarianism can be as a tool of rigid political control seems to be somewhat in conflict with your espousal of freedom and equality. In fact, the statement above is something a fascist would surely welcome, and be strongly in keeping with that political persuasion.

[Argus]

Pentecostals, specifically, around the world are now estimated at somewhere in the area of 400/500 million - again I do not recall anywhere near precisely.

Sputtering nonsense. Here are the numbers of the world's largest international religions:

Religious Body Number of Adherents

Catholic Church 1,100,000,000

Sunni Islam 875,000,000

Eastern Orthodox Church 225,000,000

Anglican Communion* 76,000,000

Assemblies of God 50,000,000

Jehovah's Witnesses 15,597,746

Seventh-day Adventists 12,894,005

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 12,275,822

New Apostolic Church 10,260,000

Ahmadiyya 10,000,000

Bahai World Faith 6,000,000

Why are you so frightened of Pentacostals? By any sane evaluation of their doctrine and the behaviour of their congregations they are far less rigid and violent than the Muslims, who are growing at a much faster clip.

[Argus]

Look, TS, you pointed out above that you view this election as a choice between crooks and fascists.

Nah. Between fascist crooks and just plain crooks.

Do you even know what a fascist is? The odd thing is that reading you and Eureka and your shrill cries about fundamentalists and fascists I get the image of both of you as being of a much similar mindset to both groups than you'd probably care to admit. Both of you are filled with fear and hate for those who you see as "enemies" because they have different opinons. Both of you are uttelry without compromise. Both of you denounce as heretics anyone who disagrees with your doctrines.

The anti Conservative rants coming from you two appear remarkably similar to a fire breathing bible thumping southern preacher raging about sinners, or a Wahabi mullah damning the heretics and unbelievers.

[Argus]

EDITED TO ADD:  Harper should wait for the inquiry to finish, which I understand is one month.  I doubt the people will change their minds by then.

That's probably a reasonable compromise. Waiting to the end of the testimony lets people hear all the information; surely they don't need Gomery's analysis to tell them what it means.

-kimmy

I've seen a couple of items in local media which suggest the testimony may be little more than a footnote. The really explosive revelations, they claim, is going to come from the forensic accountants who have been busily following the money trail for the last several months to find out just where it wound up.

[Argus]

If the next government is a Conservative one of this stripe, you can say goodbye to Canada.

This "Conservative" Party is dedicated to the weakening of the federal power, and, since the only real power the federal government has, that means giving up federal taxing powers to the provinces.

This "Conservative" party is dedicated to the destruction of the healthcare system and turning into a provincial toy. That has been clear for quite a few years now.

This "Conservative" party is dedicated to reneging on the Kyoto accord and to the dooming of your children and grandchildren to sickness, terror, and poverty that will necessarily follow the failure of the world struggle to reverse the damage to the Planet.

This "Conservative" party does not care about these things and the fundamentalist part would probably welcome them. After all, a soundly thought opinion is that failure to address climate change now will bring that "war of all against all" that the fundamentalists expect and want since it signals their elevation to heaven.

This "Conservative" party would be the greatest disaster as a government that could befall us.

Just curious. Were your eyes filled with tears when you wrote all that drivel?

[Guest eureka]

You figures are utter nonsense, Argus, and I don't know where you dredged them from They also do not include the Pentecostals. Have you not followed what is said of the numbers of Fundamentalists in the US alone?

There are more than twenty million in the US alone.

Fascism is more your style. Trying to shout down those who think with their heads won't get you very far if you want a war of words. You will soon run out of your rants and be forced to accept reason - I take that back, reason is the one word that is not in your lexicon.

Actually, I will not tee off on you today. I am in a good mood this weekend. Yesterday, I listened to the Met oerformance of The Magic Flute, and today I went into Totonto to see the COC performing Il Trovatore.

After all that soul food, I am feeling charitable so I will not tell you today what a closet Fascist you really are. I will not even explain Fascism to you. You will probably be upset enough at all that culture.

I suspect that there is someone else who might want a couple of pieces of you, though.

[Argus]

You figures are utter nonsense, Argus, and I don't know where you dredged them from They also do not include the Pentecostals. Have you not followed what is said of the numbers of Fundamentalists in the US alone?

There are more than twenty million in the US alone

Sigh.

You don't actually know what a Pentacostal is, do you? You might look into the Assemblies of God sometime.

Fascism is more your style. Trying to shout down those who think with their heads won't get you very far if you want a war of words. You will soon run out of your rants and be forced to accept reason - I take that back, reason is the one word that is not in your lexicon.

I don't shout, son, I simply mock those who rant without evidence or support or basic logic behind them.

After all that soul food, I am feeling charitable so I will not tell you today what a closet Fascist you really are. I will not even explain Fascism to you. You will probably be upset enough at all that culture.

Which particular statement of mine do you feel marks me as a Fascist? What element of Fascism does it resemble and how does it differ from basic liberal capitalism?

I suspect that there is someone else who might want a couple of pieces of you, though.

Sounds like you're gonna get your big brother to beat me up. Metaphorically speaking, of course. Not that you would wish violence upon someone for merely expressing their opinion. Of course not. Not you.

[Digby]

Im not to sure what a fascist looks like and i'll admit it .

But don't they give the raw materials and resources and public properties to a few ?

Would that not make our liberal Party perfect exsamples ?

I really don't think penticostal churches are growing that much , they may be in lands filled with voodoo and african religions as if you turn the sound down you got the same thing.

I suspect they probly lost a few thousand members after the documentry was played on Binney Hinns corruption .

I beleave a Penticostal church is a good place to pick up a bad spirit but really they have not been that dangerous of a church other then that . Catholism and Islam was far more dangerous in history . both spreading at the edge of a sword or even torture chambers .

Islam is by far more dangerous as they will someday try to rid jerusalem of other faiths . And the jews liveing there will let their nukes go before Islam drives them in the sea , And the muslims probly know this but enjoy a good case of suicide .

[Guest eureka]

The Pentecostal Church is not just the Assemblies of God. It has its own schisms.

[August1991]

The Pentecostal Church is not just the Assemblies of God. It has its own schisms.

Should I be scared? Is there a secret handshake or ring that I should look for?

Thanks for those numbers, Argus.

The simple fact of the matter is that Western, Modern Life is an invitation to "doing your own thing". Claims that Red-State US or Western Canada is on the verge of imposing a "fundamentalist revival" is tantamount to claiming that man has discovered a way to herd cats.

I doubt it.

So, you can draw your own conclusions about what I think will happen next in the Middle East.

[I Miss Trudeau]

This seems to be an odd position for someone with your moniker and apparent political affiliation to take.

To be fair, you have no idea why "I miss trudeau," so any speculation on your part is rather meaningless.

After all, Trudeau was a masterful liar whose word was worth nothing and his promises less than nothing. Chretien did him one better, by actually writing down the promises in a red book before ignoring them.

And this relates to Harper how? Can we ever get away from this same basic fallacy, over and over and over again?

Martin is as a good a liar as either, but simply shouts the lies in a louder and more self righteous tone of voice.

You'll notice that I never suggested otherwise. That leaves me wondering why you felt this was relevant to my point, since it obviously isn't.

And you are going to snivel about the honesty of tory platforms because, of all things, they promise to allow their MPs to have a little more freedom of conscience in their votes than the trained and bribed seals of the Liberal Party caucus?

Yes, I am going to point out that party platforms are essentially incompatible with free votes.

[I Miss Trudeau]

Your apparent strong belief in how valuable authoritarianism can be as a tool of rigid political control seems to be somewhat in conflict with your espousal of freedom and equality.

Absolute nonsense. If an MP doesn't want to be bound by the party platform, they can run as an independent. There is nothing "authoritarian" about that. If an MP decides to run as a party candidate, it is not unreasonable to expect them to represent that party. The electorate can decide from there.

In fact, the statement above is something a fascist would surely welcome, and be strongly in keeping with that political persuasion.

More nonsense.

[Digby]

Assemblies of God would include most the trinity beleaveing penticostals .

The non trinity beleaveing penticostals are called United Penticostals .

In my opinion the united penticostals will give you a better demonic show . They have very lively services almost identical too voodoo services .

Then you got the branch of the Penticostals that lets poisonous snakes bite them ,they are mostly down south in the US .

Most Penticostal converts seem to be people with lower IQs in my opinion , there main claim to fame is the tounge speaking .

In the bible the gift of tounges was a usefull gift ,if 20 people was in a room all from different languages each man heard the speaker talking in his own language . You could use this gift to spread the goaspel to forieng peoples .

The jiberish speaking performed in Penticostal churches has no biblical backing . It has a historical backing though as many pagan religions would break out in jiberish speaking . In ancient greece the priestess would break out in jiberish speaking . in some orinital relegions , i beleave in voodoo this happens . But men of God in the bible never broke out in jiberish for no reason.

They take their name penticostal from the day of penticost ,i don't think they even know what the day of penticost is .

penticost means 50 . the day of penticost = 50 day .

you was to count 7 sabbaths from the last sabbath in the days of unleaven bread then you took the next day . or the 50th day . Penticost always falls on a Sunday as it falls on the day after the 7th sabbath .

Penticost has a deep hidden meaning and im sure these jiberish speaking penticostals have no idea to its hidden meanig. They like the majority of so called christians have forgotten the sabbaths and holy days God commanded to be kept ,And have taken the advice of mother rome and have accepted pagan ceramonies renamed as christian days .