Get Rid of Quebec

[Newfie Canadian]

No we have the PQ wich is generally a better choice, and for the right wing there is the adq.

As I recall, and I may be wrong, there has been a lot of distrust and dissatisfaction with the PQ in the recent past.

And don't the ADQ only have 5 out of 125 seats?

The problem is that the federal government (Liberal)refuse to end the status quo and rework its structure cause if some province want more centralization, some want less

My point was the sovereigntist movement doesn't see the Liberal government as the problem. Lucien Bouchard was Mulroney's Québec lieutenant.

Sovereigntists see the Canadian government as the problem, and that's the problem.

about 50% want quebec to become sovregn then offer an association deal

In your opinion, how would that 50% split if it was made clear that sovereignty association (or the like) wouldn't be an option, Would they mostly go to the sovereigntists or lean towards the federalists or would it be even?

[Bakunin]

Not everyone is compromising; only English Canada; that is the problem.  Quebec doe not return the respect.

We are compromising all the time too but i can understand you don't see it. If we wouldn't compromise, canada would be a republic, the country would have a real culture and it would be social democrate and the country would have a real vision for the future.

If english canada wouldn't compromise, we would be part of the united states.

[Bakunin]

As I recall, and I may be wrong, there has been a lot of distrust and dissatisfaction with the PQ in the recent past.

And don't the ADQ only have 5 out of 125 seats?

yeah, actually after 9 years of power, the people including me were tired of the pq, tired to the point where the ADQ was leading in the poll like 6 month before the election but they started to fall in the poll and people just decided to go with the liberal to get rid of the pq. But jean charest liberal government just happend to be the worst government we have ever seen so if there would be election right now, the pq would win easily.

My point was the sovereigntist movement doesn't see the Liberal government as the problem. Lucien Bouchard was Mulroney's Québec lieutenant.

Sovereigntists see the Canadian government as the problem, and that's the problem

yes we need more than a government change, we need structural change. Murloney tried but failled.

In your opinion, how would that 50% split if it was made clear that sovereignty association (or the like) wouldn't be an option, Would they mostly go to the sovereigntists or lean towards the federalists or would it be even?

The point is that it seems to be the only way to get rid of the status quo. Become sovreign, then there is a pressure to negociate, else the federal government refuse to negociate so in other word we decide to negociate an association, if the federal government don't negociate then it is its business.

[PocketRocket]

I can't explain how much ppl are pissed off the provincial liberal, only in education, my cegep is on strike since 4 week, there are  170 000 students on strike right now, the number grow evry day...

So your complaint in this little paragraph is that you're losing out on your education investment, and the big bad Liberals are the sole reason.

Why then are the STUDENTS on strike???

If they are worried about getting an education, you would think they would be in the classroom while they have a chance.

As for the teachers and janitorial staff, so you have any idea how much money a janitor makes??? When I found out, I almost browned my trousers, and not with shoe polish.

Teachers likewise get great pay, and get about 12 weeks a year off.

Yeah, the teachers bitch and whine about how hard their job is.

Most of them have never worked any other profession, except perhaps summer jobs when they were kids.

I guarantee, if these teachers spent six months doing a couple of the jobs I've had to work in my lifetime, first chance they got they'd scurry back to their comfortable little classroom, and never whimper about their workplace hardships again.

Bloody teachers have no idea just how good they have it.

As for being pissed off at the Liberals, well OF COURSE you're pissed off at the Liberals. Since there hasn't been another party in power in decades, you don't have anyone else to blame.

If the Conservatives were in power for the past ten years, then it would all be their fault, and the picture wouldn't be mush different than the one you're looking at right now.

But ask yourself this, with the amount of money Quebec gets from Ottawa, considerably more than comes out of her in taxes or any other income, then if Quebec DOES separate, who the hell is going to support the Quebec school system then???

I don't think separation would cause any improvement in your education system whatsoever.

But it might actually teach the teachers that things could be far worse than they already are.

[PocketRocket]

If english canada wouldn't compromise, we would be part of the united states.

Yeah, right. Boy-oh-boy, I can sure see Bush and his pals bending over backwards to help accomodate the continued proliferation of the French language and culture of Quebec.

As for student protests, well, under the American government I imagine they would not be allowed to go quite as far.

Remember Kent State University???

Quebec as a state would see the Francophone community reduced to a mere shadow of its former self, and you can bet there would not be any government funding for French-speaking-only schools.

But that wouldn't bother the USA. They'd be quite happy with their new sources of hydro, if they managed to get their hands on them.

Quebec joining the USA as a state would be cultural suicide of an unprecedented scope.

[PocketRocket]

yeah, actually after 9 years of power, the people including me were tired of the pq, 

I can see why.

But jean charest liberal government just happend to be the worst government we have ever seen so if there would be election right now, the pq would win easily.

Be careful of the word "worst". We have all seen "worse", but no one in Canada has seen "worst", except perhaps some of the veterans who survived WWII.

As for the PQ winning, they'd simply botch it again, just like last time. Too much in-fightin, and too many members of the party trying to turn it towards their own private agendas.

we need more than a government change, we need structural change. Murloney tried but failled.

That's the first good thing I've heard said of Mulrony in a long time.

But I agree, there need to be changes made.

The point is that it seems to be the only way to get rid of the status quo. Become sovreign, then there is a pressure to negociate, else the federal government refuse to negociate so in other word we decide to negociate an association, if the federal government don't negociate then it is its business. 

To the rest of Canada, it already seems like Quebec is applying more pressure than any other province.

That aside, the THREAT of becoming sovereign is pressure, actually committing the deed, I'm not so sure.

If Quebec splits off, becomes sovereign, then what guarantee does Canada have that she won't take what we have to offer, then simply tip her hat and say "adieu"???

Right now, Canada mollycoddles Quebec as much as she can afford to, both in financial and political capital.

If Quebec DOES go sovereign, do you think all the other provinces won't raise hell any time the Canadian government tries to hand over a dollar??? Right now some of the other provinces are raising hell over the amount of money and consideration given to Quebec.

And you're still part of Canada, as a full fledged province. Imagine the broohaha if you decide on sovereignty, and Canada tries to help out. We'd have provinces lining up to kick Ottawa butt, or to show themselves to the sovereign door.

Canada is not perfect, no country is, but living in ANY province in Canada is better than living in probably 99% of the other nations of the world.

We have one of the most culturally diverse nations in the world, where no matter what your race, language, colour or creed, you are welcome, and your rights are respected. No other country on this globe can claim the sheer numbers of different racial groups, nor how well they have been accepted and thrived here.

We've all gotten spoiled, and we all whine and cry (myself included, I must admit) about little bullshit details, all the while losing sight of the big picture, and that's this; we live in the best country in the world. Not the biggest, not the strongest, not the most populated, not the richest, but THE BEST.

In my opinion, one of the things that contributes to making Canada such a great nation, is Quebec. She is part of our heart, our soul. A loved and respected member of a great family.

Unfortunately, like in any family, sometimes siblings bicker.

[Bakunin]

As for being pissed off at the Liberals, well OF COURSE you're pissed off at the Liberals. Since there hasn't been another party in power in decades, you don't have anyone else to blame.

If the Conservatives were in power for the past ten years, then it would all be their fault, and the picture wouldn't be mush different than the one you're looking at right now.

Trudeau's vision has been the beginning of the problem, the conservative at least tryed to find a solution.

But ask yourself this, with the amount of money Quebec gets from Ottawa, considerably more than comes out of her in taxes or any other income, then if Quebec DOES separate, who the hell is going to support the Quebec school system then???

I don't think separation would cause any improvement in your education system whatsoever.

But it might actually teach the teachers that things could be far worse than they already are.

What quebec receive from the equalization payment represent about 2 billions, now if you take 23% of the federal surplus you find the 2 billions necessary to have a balanced budget.

If english canada wouldn't compromise, we would be part of the united states.

Yeah, right. Boy-oh-boy, I can sure see Bush and his pals bending over backwards to help accomodate the continued proliferation of the French language and culture of Quebec.

As for student protests, well, under the American government I imagine they would not be allowed to go quite as far.

Remember Kent State University???

Quebec as a state would see the Francophone community reduced to a mere shadow of its former self, and you can bet there would not be any government funding for French-speaking-only schools.

But that wouldn't bother the USA. They'd be quite happy with their new sources of hydro, if they managed to get their hands on them.

Quebec joining the USA as a state would be cultural suicide of an unprecedented scope.

The "we" i used was meant for canada if quebec wouldn't interfere in canadian politics.

[PocketRocket]

Trudeau's vision has been the beginning of the problem, the conservative at least tryed to find a solution. 

Trudeau's vision was for a Canada where French and English alike could get along with each other. Where both groups would have equal opportunity. Where both groups would respect each other.

That doesn't seem like such a bad vision to me.

What quebec receive from the equalization payment represent about 2 billions, 

Are you sure??? It seems almost like we give that much to Bombardier every year.

now if you take 23% of the federal surplus you find the 2 billions necessary to have a balanced budget.

In other words, you want over 1/5 of our surplus to be given to Quebec??? Hmm, let's see, 10 provinces, plus the territories, but 1/5 goes to Quebec. Yeah, that really seems fair to me

IMHO, the vast majority of the surplus should be used to pay down the deficit. The country as a whole is in debt. Debts will always, sooner or later, turn around and bite you on the bum.

Personally, if I'm going to have teeth-marks on my butt, that's NOT the way I want them to get there.

The "we" i used (in the statement: we would be part of the USA--PR) was meant for canada if quebec wouldn't interfere in canadian politics.

Sp the original statement meant that the rest of Canada would be part of the USA???

Sorry. I didn't get that from the context.

But that aside, I don't see how you can make that assumption.

[kimmy]

Sp the original statement meant that the rest of Canada would be part of the USA???

Sorry. I didn't get that from the context.

But that aside, I don't see how you can make that assumption.

I have read before of Quebecois claiming that "the French Fact in Canada" is perhaps the only thing making Canada distinct from the US. They might be more correct than most care to admit.

-kimmy

[playfullfellow]

Caesar, "bring cash" just means things cost more in BC because of that wonderful sales tax you have there. Agree with you in the weather statement though, man its ugly here now.

I seem to ge the impression that the separtists in Quebec definately want their cake and eat it too. I see no reason why they should get all of that if they decide to leave. Plus they should also pay their share of the national debt.

But we need to get back on track to make this a stonger, cooperative country. This bloody crap over east/west, french/english so and so forth does absolutely diddly to make this a better country. There are a lot worse countries out there to live in.

I still say no one has the cahonnies to do anything about it though in politics. No one in politics has the guts to say that we need to do away with the current language laws. Let Quebec be French as they always have. Let the other provinces do as they see fit and what they decide that they want to pay for out of their own budgets. If Quebec wants to diversify their business, well they will just do it in the language that will give them the better turn around. The ROC of Canada could save a bundle as we would not need to pay for the bilingual cereal boxes we have. Quebec cereal boxes could be french only, more savongs there.

This is a very simplified point but that many people can start to agree with. But as with many things, people forget the KISS rule "keep it simple stupid".

[waynej625]

I think our biggest problem has been that for year's every PM we have had is from the Province of Quebec. along with that, many of their most powerful Ministers have also been from Quebec. Our federal politician's do not want to see Quebec separate because many of them will no longer be Canadian and therefore they will no longer have their hands on the purse-string's of Canadian's.

Think about it no more Chretien's, no more Martin's, and no more Mulroney's. Now that is a thought I could go to sleep with and dream wonderful dreams. So Quebec, when are you leaving? I'm awfully sick of corrupt politicians. :angry:

[waynej625]

The ROC of Canada could save a bundle as we would not need to pay for the bilingual cereal boxes we have.

You are right, except for New Brunswick where our Provincial Government was so horny to attract the French vote regardless, they declared NB to be 'Officially Bilingual." Nothing could be further from the truth, because it it is being transformed into a mini-Quebec thank's to court rulings after this declaration. When budget cuts are made, those cuts come from every program imaginable including Health and Education, but the one program that never suffers from cuts is funding for French initiatives. Somehow it has become a sacred cow, not to be fouched under any circumstances. Most Provincial jobs are now advertised as bilingual, and since most bilingual people in New Brunswick have French as their mother-tongue, they are the one's being given whether they otherwise qualify or not.

A large number of unilingual English speaking New Brunswicker's have packed up and left the Province to head west or south. At a recent Job Fair, the exhibitors consisted of traing courses willing to help people fill out Student Loan applications, the rest of the exhibitor's consisted of various Call-Centre organizations. Someone told me that the one thing missing was meaningful, well paying job exhibitors.

The only thing our being "Officailly Bilingual," has gotten us has been a form of segregation based on language, similar to Apartied in South Africa. They don't beat us or shoot us they just make sure that our choices of employment are limited unless we speak French.

[seabee]

It seems that when the British conquered le Canada in 1760, they conquered the territory, but not its people. Quite the contrary, in fact.

[Grantler]

Agreed. It was quite the contrary. The British did indeed conquer the people but just, for the first time in its Imperial history, allowed them to stay on the territory in question.

[Guest eureka]

The interesting thing to me about all this, is that the French in Canada are the only minority in the world that does not have to ensure and pay for its own survival.

I don't object to that, though. What I do object to is the marginalization of those parts of the English speaking majority who live in heavily French populated areas.

[seabee]

What I do object to is the marginalization of those parts of the English speaking majority who live in heavily French populated areas.

But what about the marginalisation and assimilation of French-speaking people who live in English-speaking areas.

Also, it would have been more appropriatate to speak of "French-speaking populated areas". French-speaking Québécois are not citizens of France, they are not "French".

They have resented the French for centuries since the 1763 Treaty by which they were abondonned by France. No "Québécois" considers himself "un Français" even if he/she has received "la Légion d'Honneur" from France's Government.

Québécois are not French. They are French-speaking, but as different a French as Texan English is different from Oxford English. And they insist on that difference. Would George Bush consider himself British or English?

[Guest eureka]

Reread my post and ask yourself what about it.

And no, it would not have been more appropriate to word it any other way than I did.

I don't know what you are trying to say with the rest, but French and English speaking is a perfectly acceptable distinction.

[ft.niagara]

The interesting thing to me about all this, is that the French in Canada are the only minority in the world that does not have to ensure and pay for its own survival.

I don't object to that, though. What I do object to is the marginalization of those parts of the English speaking majority who live in heavily French populated areas.

"marginalization of those parts of the English speaking majority" It's called discrimination, and in most civilized countries it is illegal. Also, they are not the 'English speaking majority' in Quebec, they are the minority. The only answer to that problem is a major influx of non French speaking people into Quebec so that French is no longer the majority language. Maybe Canada would like ALOT of Mexicans.

[seabee]

It is indeed quite correct to say:

...French and English speaking is a perfectly acceptable distinction.

But describing Québec as:

,,, heavily French populated areas.

is just as accurate (or inaccurate) as saying that Canada outside Québec is a "heavily British populated area".

[seabee]

It is rather incoherent to say:

"marginalization of those parts of the English speaking majority" It's called discrimination, and in most civilized countries it is illegal.

and, in the same paragraph:

a major influx of non French speaking people into Quebec so that French is no longer the majority language.

or, in other words, marginalizing even more the French-speaking minority, implicitly to the point of extinction. Is that what should be considered illegal when done by French-speaking people become quite legal when done by English-speaking people? Sounds like an anglo-supremacist attidude.

[Guest eureka]

Nothing at all wrong with it, Seabee. You should, perhaps, learn more about the conventions for this sort of thing before you try semantic quibbling.

And the English in Quebec are not a minority, Ft. Niagara. That is what this idea of separation or autonomy is all about. It is about the creation of a French majority and English minority in Quebec.

That is why I sometimes despair for Canada when even the kind of intelligence that participates in these forums cannot grasp what I post about the too great powers of the provinces - the source of almost all of Canada's ills.

[Bakunin]

And the English in Quebec are not a minority, Ft. Niagara. That is what this idea of separation or autonomy is all about. It is about the creation of a French majority and English minority in Quebec.

It seems hard for you to admit that english is a minority in quebec.

Quebec population: 7,487,169

French: 6,000,000

English: 600,000

so 81% french, 8% english, 10% others

[Guest eureka]

Look up "Ballantyne, Davidson & McIntyre v. Canada Communications for the UN's decision on the "English in Quebec.

English in Quebec are not a minority but are part of the Canadian majority. French in Quebec in Quebec are part of the Canadian minority.

[Bakunin]

But what is a country for you ? isnt it people who share a culture a language, media and etc...

In canada there is a country within a country. That country is quebec and its in majority french.

[ft.niagara]

In canada there is a country within a country. That country is quebec and its in majority french.

That is how I take it, and in the country of Quebec English is a minority language, and they are even more strict there over its use than in France itself. For some reason, Quebec does not receive the kind of immigration of nonFrench speaking people so as to change that balance. In Miami there is as much spanish signage as english. But of course, Quebec being a country within a country, would limit immigration into it if such a shift would look possible.