Hating a way of life

[I miss Reagan]

"Crazed turbanheads"

"Psychotic"

"fanatical"

"vicious"

Yes but you and your buddies on the forum have used similar language in describing Christians as well as Americans. If you were my boss I'd have a good human rights case.

[Black Dog]

Yes but you and your buddies on the forum have used similar language in describing Christians as well as Americans. If you were my boss I'd have a good human rights case.

I doubt it, as I'm generaly careful to single out fundamentalist Christians (ie. Jerry Falwell) for scorn.

[Black Dog]

700 years later along comes Mohammed spouting "kill the Jews & infidels, pedophilia is good & keep those damned women in their place". This appealed to the rather nasty barbaric sector of the population & they jumped off to follow him.

I'd be interested to see what parts of the Qur'an you are referencing.

Also, given the prevelance of perversity and barbarity in the Torah and Old Testamant (not to mention the vast, vast numbers of peaceful Muslims around the world), your analysis is rubbish.

[Black Dog]

If you're going to discuss the Koran may I suggest that you read it yourself, rather than asking us all to give you the Coles Notes versions.

Actually, I'm asking you to back up your accussation that "kill the Jews & infidels, pedophilia is good & keep those damned women in their place" is part of Islamic doctrine.

You made the claim, you back it up. I'm not about to do your work for you (especially since I highly doubt you've read Qur'an yourself).

So far, I've found verses calling for treating Jews and Christians as "People of the Book"...

Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (Surat al-Baqara; 62)

...equal treatment of women...

O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allah in Whom ye claim (your rights) of one another, and toward the wombs (that bare you). Lo! Allah hath been a watcher over you. (Surat An-Nisáa; 1)

And covet not the thing in which Allah hath made some of you excel others. Unto men a fortune from that which they have earned, and unto women a fortune from that which they have earned. (Envy not one another) but ask Allah of His bounty (32)

and nonviolence...

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.(Surat al-Baqara, 190-193)

[Black Dog]

First you back up your annoying little statement that the reason Israel was formed in 1948 was because western nations didn't want them, as someone has already kindly asked you to do.

I already did, indicating the existence of immigration quotas which restricted European Jewish immigration to the U.S. from the 1920s through to the 1960s.

Thomas A. Kolsky echoes the same sentiment in his book "Jews Against Zionism: The American Council for Judaism, 1942-1948".

So I've done my part (and some of your homework too). Let's see if you come back.

[KrustyKidd]

Waitaminute: your premise is crap. For one thing, there does exist a informal eminity towards Israel, based on current factors such as the occupation as well as historical ones. But there's no ongoing physical conflict between Israel and its neighbours, just a lot of propaganda.

OK, just a lot of propaganda. Thank you so very much Black Dog for finally being candid and agreeing that Israel poses no physical threat to actual peace in the Middle East. So then, the only problem they have is with their Palestinian problem. Too bad the rest of the world wasn't as open minded as you but, as we know, most Arabs run around saying that Israel threatens them.

Case closed.

[caesar]

Kind of like the world blaming famine, war, disease and all on Canada because we have not settled our land claims with the Aborigionals.

Not even close. We are not shooting missles at OUR aboriginals.

[caesar]

Israel poses no physical threat to actual peace in the Middle East. So then, the only problem they have is with their Palestinian problem. Too bad the rest of the world wasn't as open minded as you but, as we know, most Arabs run around saying that Israel threatens them.

That is really not true at all. Israel does threaten the other nations around and that is what has triggered terrorisem. Arab governments are afraid to retaliate against Israel for invading their air space and seizing their lands because Israel has big brother with the big guns to back up their actions. They would have a death wish for their nation to attack Israel. Right or wrong the USA would be there assisting Israel with annihalating any invasion to reclaim their land.

[Black Dog]

Thank you so very much Black Dog for finally being candid and agreeing that Israel poses no physical threat to actual peace in the Middle East. So then, the only problem they have is with their Palestinian problem. Too bad the rest of the world wasn't as open minded as you but, as we know, most Arabs run around saying that Israel threatens them.

Um...no that's not what I'm saying that at all. What I am saying is that Israel does not threaten the existence of any of the Arab states by its physical presence. It's not poised to attack Syria et al (though I'm sure it's been discussed).

Say: what happened to Anthony? Let me guess: he was LLL's sock puppet?

[KrustyKidd]

Um...no that's not what I'm saying that at all. What I am saying is that Israel does not threaten the existence of any of the Arab states by its physical presence.

Well that seems to cement my case that Israel does not pose a problem to the Middle East other than their private conflict with Palestinians.

But there's no ongoing physical conflict between Israel and its neighbours, just a lot of propaganda.

Yes there is a lot of propaganda, read this next quote .....

That is really not true at all. Israel does threaten the other nations around and that is what has triggered terrorisem.

I sure wish somebody could provide some facts for this.

[Black Dog]

Well that seems to cement my case that Israel does not pose a problem to the Middle East other than their private conflict with Palestinians

I would hesitate to characterize the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a private one due to the historical events that brought us to this stage of the game. I also think you're greatly underestimating its impact on the Arab world's attitudes towards Israel.

Furthermore, I also wonder if Israel's willingness to play loose with other countries' soverignty in its own quest for "security" (see Mossad's use of Canadian passports, the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty, recent extrajudicial assasinations in Damascus) is enough to constitute a threat.

[KrustyKidd]

just a lot of propaganda.

[Black Dog]

just a lot of propaganda.

Getting a lot of mileage out of those 5 little words, aren't you? I'll admit it: prima facie, I understated the degree of entaglement between Israel and its Arab neighbours (then I remembered Damauscus and others). So I'm correcting myself now.

Which brings us back to your point:

So then, the only problem they have is with their Palestinian problem. Too bad the rest of the world wasn't as open minded as you but, as we know, most Arabs run around saying that Israel threatens them.

I reiterate: the Palestinian issue is the number one issue. It is not a private civil matter, but an embodiement of 60 odd years of animosity between Israel and its neighbours.

Basically, you are trying to isolate that conflict from the rest (to what purpose I'm not sure, though I speculate its to create a narrative wherein Israel is the unjust victim of Arab animosity). I'm telling you that's not possible.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

I reiterate: the Palestinian issue is the number one issue. It is not a private civil matter, but an embodiement of 60 odd years of animosity between Israel and its neighbours.

Indeed, I cannot imagine that Jewish people feel too much differently over the Israeli borders than Arabs feel about them. I don't expect the Jewish National Congress in the US and Canada to say,"Israel's problems with Palestine are none of our concern, that is the 'Israeli Jews' and the 'Alliyah' people's problem". I doubt State Of Israel Bonds would be such a hot ticket if that were the case.

[Argus]

Your statement that the Palestinians target little children is reprehensible.

Why do you find it reprehensible to make a statement of fact? There is no question whatesoever that Palestinians target children.

The Palestinian sucide bombers attacks are often reandom and do not discriminate. When they do target anyone, their targets are more likely to be with tactical intent.

Like buses and pizza parlors and discos. Yup, all pure tactical targets.

They bomb and bulldoze and kill Palestinian children almost casually.

It's "reprehensible" to suggest the Palestinians target Jewish kids, despite the many documented cases, but then you blithely state that the evil Jews kill Palestinian children "almost casually". Do you even realize what a brainless hypocrite you make yourself out to be?

BD referred to the French resistance: something that I have also done in the past. There, the Resistence wa a terror campaign to the Germans and a movement of heroes to the occupied country. The situation is not that much different in Palestine today.

How many German children did the French resistance target and kill?

[Argus]

What evidence do you have of my "racism"?

A quick seach through the threads revealed some of the following Argus tidbits re: Arabs

"Crazed turbanheads"

"Psychotic"

"fanatical"

"vicious"

That's a damn sight more evidence than you've ever produced of my allegged hatred of Jews.

Without context such "evidence" is no evidence of any kind. As for your hatred of Jews, I see no other reason for your relentless attacks on Israel and Israelis. You clearly don't care about human rights abuses. If you did you would not be an apologist for terrorism, would not be making excuses for the deliberate murder of Israeli children. Ah, but they're Jewish children, aren't they?

[Argus]

Kind of like the world blaming famine, war, disease and all on Canada because we have not settled our land claims with the Aborigionals.

Not even close. We are not shooting missles at OUR aboriginals.

If they start blowing up buses full of kids we will be.

[Argus]

Basically, you are trying to isolate that conflict from the rest (to what purpose I'm not sure, though I speculate its to create a narrative wherein Israel is the unjust victim of Arab animosity). I'm telling you that's not possible.

No, because the Jew haters will never accept that Israel was ever victimized by the pure and noble Arabs.

[Argus]

So far, I've found verses calling for treating Jews and Christians as "People of the Book"...

...equal treatment of women...

and nonviolence...

Yes, the Muslim world is known around the world for its lack of violence and its respec for women, to say nothing of their respectful treatement of Jews and Christians.

[Black Dog]

Without context such "evidence" is no evidence of any kind. As for your hatred of Jews, I see no other reason for your relentless attacks on Israel and Israelis. You clearly don't care about human rights abuses.

I'm certain that if you had refered to Arabs as "sandni**ers" or some such, you would still prevaricate and whinge about "context". Whatever.

Meanwhile the best evidence you can offer of my"racism" is my "relentless attacks on Israel and Israelis". What rot. Your little tactic is pretty common among those trying to defend the indefensible: simply turn the tables, that way you won't have to confront your own moral vacumn.

It's pathetic. Frankly. I don't give a fuck if they are Jewish. They could be Shriners for all I care. Putting aside the fact that Zionism itself is a race-based ideology, the dominant ethno-religious character of Israel is secondary to the crimes the state commits.

In fact, it's funny that my political position puits me in line with other prominent anti semites like Jews Against the Occupation, Gush Shalom, and these fellows. But I suppose they are just "self-haters".

If you did you would not be an apologist for terrorism, would not be making excuses for the deliberate murder of Israeli children.

What's this? Why, it's another accusation without a shred of supporting evidence! Honestly, old boy, I don't know why you even bother with such flaccid barbs.

The way I see it, it's hilarious that a poster with a proven track record of slurring a particular ethnicity is accusing another poster of racism, yet can't back it up with anything more than a patently fallacious line of reasoning that's been reguritated to the point where it's become a cliche.

I think it was a few months ago on a similar thread (I don't have time to check right now) where you trundled out the same line. Then, as now, you were unwilling or unable to produce concrete evidence (like, oh, say: a quotation?) demonstrating 1) my hatred of Jews and (2) my support for terrorism.

In short, you were a lying piece of shit then, and you're a lying piece of shit now.

(Added) Oh look! More bilge!

No, because the Jew haters will never accept that Israel was ever victimized by the pure and noble Arabs.

Logical fallacy. No one has argued anything of the sort.

Yes, the Muslim world is known around the world for its lack of violence and its respec for women, to say nothing of their respectful treatement of Jews and Christians.

Gosh, you mean there's a gap between what people are supposed to believe in and what they actually practice? I'm shocked! and appalled!

[Argus]

Without context such "evidence" is no evidence of any kind. As for your hatred of Jews, I see no other reason for your relentless attacks on Israel and Israelis. You clearly don't care about human rights abuses.

I'm certain that if you had refered to Arabs as "sandni**ers" or some such, you would still prevaricate and whinge about "context". Whatever

You pick single words out of posts and try to pretend that indicates racism? Hell, even if I admitted I didn't like Arabs that doesn't constitute racism. Racism is dislike based on racial characteristics or a feeling of racial superiority. I don't have that. I do have a heavy dislike of religious wackos of any persuasion, in any colour or variety, especially when they have a disturbing tendency to either commit violence against innocent people or support violence against same.

Meanwhile the best evidence you can offer of my"racism" is my "relentless attacks on Israel and Israelis".

There is really only two reasons for such attacks against Israel: concern for human rights, or anti-semitism. You clearly don't care about human rights. That leaves dislike of Jews. Sorry, but it's pretty obvious.

It's pathetic.  Frankly. I don't give a fuck if they are Jewish. They could be Shriners for all I care. Putting aside the fact that Zionism itself is a race-based ideology, the dominant ethno-religious character of Israel is secondary to the crimes the state commits.

And yet, oddly, if you put an honest, unbiased list of nations who violated human rights the worst Israel probably wouldn't even crack the top fifty. Soooo, this concern is... for why exactly?

In fact, it's funny that my political position puits me in line with other prominent anti semites like Jews Against the Occupation, Gush Shalom, and these fellows. But I suppose they are just "self-haters".

Not all who criticise Israel are anti-semites. However, all anti-semites criticise Israel.

If you did you would not be an apologist for terrorism, would not be making excuses for the deliberate murder of Israeli children.

What's this? Why, it's another accusation without a shred of supporting evidence! Honestly, old boy, I don't know why you even bother with such flaccid barbs.

Actually, I apologise for that one. I believe I mistook you for eureka. The two of you have much in common, after all.

The way I see it, it's hilarious that a poster with a proven track record of slurring a particular ethnicity is accusing another poster of racism,

First of all, my dislike of Arab world's religious culture and the society it has spawned does not constitute racism. I'm not sure what your dislike of Israel is. If they were a race it could be racism, but as I can't see any reason for your constant harping on them I have little choice but to assign the motive to anti-semitism.

In short, you were a lying piece of shit then, and you're a lying piece of shit now.

(Added) Oh look! More bilge!

And you're not long for this forum if you don't grow up enough to wash out your foul mouth and stop spewing obcenities. Not that I'd miss someone with all the accumen of a retarded chimp anyway.

[caesar]

And yet, oddly, if you put an honest, unbiased list of nations who violated human rights the worst Israel probably wouldn't even crack the top fifty. Soooo, this concern is... for why exactly?

Wrong; I have seen such a list and Israel and the USA are near the top. They may treat their own citizens better than many other countries but do not abide by the rules concerning non citizens.

[caesar]

In January 2002, the Israeli Attorney General rejected a request to compel the Israeli Custodian of Absentees' Property to release information on property belonging to Palestinian refugees on the grounds that it might damage Israel's foreign relations and would require too much effort. Since 1948 more than five million Palestinians have had the entire contents of their homes and businesses taken, with no recompense, by the Israeli government.

Buyers of British arms and Britain's close allies in the "war on terror" are named as being among the worst abusers of human rights in a government report published yesterday.

States identified include Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Uzbekistan, Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The US and Russia are also mentioned.

The 310-page annual human rights report published yesterday by the Foreign Office praises the role of Craig Murray, the British ambassador to Tashkent, in speaking out about human rights abuses in Uzbekistan, although Mr Murray has been suspended on full pay and faces a disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct.

[Guest eureka]

Oh Dear! Argus, perhaps I am schizophrenic after all. Why, I am an apologist for terrorism (only Muslims are terrorists, aren't they?) and also make excuses for the deliberate murder of Israeli children. Such a contradiction Could only be reconciled by one as evil or ill as I.

I am bad aren't I? Should I apologize to my Jewish friends?

[Argus]

And yet, oddly, if you put an honest, unbiased list of nations who violated human rights the worst Israel probably wouldn't even crack the top fifty. Soooo, this concern is... for why exactly?

Wrong; I have seen such a list and Israel and the USA are near the top. They may treat their own citizens better than many other countries but do not abide by the rules concerning non citizens.

It depends, of course, on who puts the list together. I did say "honest and unbiased".