Hating a way of life

[Shakeyhands]

The Terrorist Threat

We know that these extremists hate America and what we stand for. They hate our freedom, our individual rights, our wealth and our opportunity. They hate our religion, and they hate our values and our culture. They hate not only our president, but our form of government. And they hate the military progress and success we have made in Afghanistan and Iraq. They fear us and our might and know that we seek to destroy them before they can destroy us.

This quote was taken from an American website and I think encapsulates the misnomer that all of our American friends have boughten in to. The Extremeists don't "Hate your way of Life" at all... This arrogance is why there is a problem in the first place.

Why is it, in your opinions, is this the battle cry? Is it about the survival of the US way of life? Is it threatened and If not what is it about?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Shakeyhands,

Why is it, in your opinions, is this the battle cry?

It employs the tactic 'manufacturing consent' and it is spun by the US mainstream media to 'strike at the heart' of every American. There is a quote I previously had as a signature, by Hermann Goering (although I think it sounded more like Goebbels) "All you have to do is accuse those opposed of cowardice and being unpatriotic, and for placing the country at risk" or something similar.

Is it about the survival of the US way of life?

Now, yes. The Bush administration is protecting the ability and the god-given right to oppress others in other nations for the sole benefit of the USA.

It has nothing to do with democracy, for even Bin Laden urged the US citizens to use it. One of the few people/politicians in this whole mess that hasn't (evidently) lied has been Osama Bin Laden himself.

[p-unit]

Osama bin Laden wants nothing less than to create one gigantic Arabia spanning from Yemen in the south to Turkey in the north and from Egypt and Israel in the west to Iran in the east. He is a wahabi. He interprets the Qu'ran literally, he believes women are second class citizens and should be suppressed. He hates everything associated with the West. They don't care about freedom, or individual rights, or American values, their main goal is to spill as much "infidel" blood as possible. Their stated goal is to murder millions of Americans, men, women, children, they don't discriminate.

Osama holds no regard for individual rights or freedom, he hates Christianity, and he surely hates the progress that has been made to dismantle his terror organization. He hates everything American.

[Shakeyhands]

dig down one more layer, where does Israel fit in to your argument? Do you not realize that if the US wasn't such are ardent supporter of it that they wouldn't have these issues? or am I off base here?

He hates America because of its foreign policy, I believe thats all.

Am I way off?

[caesar]

No Shakey; you are not wrong. The Arabs/ Muslims just want to be left to lead their own lives in their own chosen way. It is the Americans that are attempting to force everyone to be little Americas. Leave them alone and they would probably do the same.

[Argus]

No Shakey; you are not wrong. The Arabs/ Muslims just want to be left to lead their own lives in their own chosen way. It is the Americans that are attempting to force everyone to be little Americas. Leave them alone and they would probably do the same.

Of course, "leave them alone" must include stopping aid to Israel so the Arabs can bring about another Holocaust.

[caesar]

Aid to Israel; meaning arming them with WMD to intimidate their neighbours. To invade their neighbours and take thei r land. YES. Defend Israel would be acceptable. Israel is no innocent player in this game.

[Argus]

Aid to Israel; meaning arming them with WMD to intimidate their neighbours.

Even if one were to buy the crackbrained theory that the US gave Israel WMDs I have seen nothing to indicate any Arab nations are intimidated by this. They continue to be implacably hostile towards Israel, to sponsor terrorism against Israel, and to boycott all Israeli goods, as well as companies which do business with Israel.

To invade their neighbours and take thei r land.  YES.

Given Israel's enormous military superiority and these WMDs why do you suppose they haven't "invaded" any of their neighbours and taken their land since the 67 war?

[caesar]

Seems to me that they are continually invading Palestinian territories and killing innocent citizens and children there. Plus check out all their human rights violations. They shoot old men in wheel chairs with missiles killing innocent people nearby. Bit of overkill there eh.

[caesar]

Even if one were to buy the crackbrained theory that the US gave Israel WMDs

It is no crack brained theory; just the facts. What they didn't supply themselves(USA) they provided the cash.

[caesar]

http://communication.ucsd.edu/911/massdestruction.html

Here, this will give you a little information on some of Israel's WMD ,

[Guest LLL]

They shoot old men in wheel chairs with missiles ....

Wouldn't YOU blast them from here to kingdom come for smugly reclining in their wheel chairs while it's their children's children who are being chosen to blow themselves up?

Why don't they volunteer, the old fu***ng farts?

[caesar]

Wouldn't YOU blast them from here to kingdom come for smugly reclining in their wheel chairs while it's their children's children who are being chosen to blow themselves up?

Why don't they volunteer, the old fu***ng farts?

Such refinement. What are you talking about???? Why do you think it is acceptable for the Israelis to kill innocent Palestinian children. By the way; the Israelis have killed many times more Palestinians than the reverse; plus they have destroyed their homes and stolen their homeland.

[Guest LLL]

Even if one were to buy the crackbrained theory...

It is no crack brained theory...

I consulted my dictionary on this and it's "crackbrained", you crack pot.

Leo

[Argus]

Seems to me that they are continually invading Palestinian territories and killing innocent citizens and children there. Plus check out all their human rights violations. They shoot old men in wheel chairs with missiles killing innocent people nearby. Bit of overkill there eh.

As I've already posted. The way to stop Israel from "invading" Palestinian territories is to stop firing mortars from them and stop sending suicide bombers into Israeli towns. The Palestinian Authority has far less respect for human rights than Israel does. As for shooting old men in wheelchairs - good on `em. I'd have shot that murdering old fanatic myself. The wonder is it took them so long to get around to doing it.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear caesar,

Aid to Israel; meaning arming them with WMD

It was France, mainly, that helped develop Israel's nuclear capabilities. It was South Africa that helped them test (jointly) a nuclear weapon.

[caesar]

It was money from the USA that allowed them to arm themselves. It was America's unending vetoes that allowed Israel to commit its atrocities and human rights abuses without taking responsibility.

[caesar]

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact 

Summary

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid

Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans

$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)

$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments

$1,650,000,000

Grand Total

$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli

$14,630

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.

Aid to Israel

Grand Total

$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.

$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers

$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli

$23,240

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear caesar,

It was America's unending vetoes that allowed Israel to commit its atrocities and human rights abuses without taking responsibility.

I am in complete agreement.

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers

$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli

$23,240

Given even the 2000 population of the US (including overseas protectorates, et al) at 286,000,000 or so, that adds up to $471.30 per US citizen. Even though it may seem a great deal, to own a $23,240 Israeli at the bargain price of $471.30, I am pretty sure it's illegal. Just kidding.

[Guest eureka]

The figures do not seem to include the value of armaments supplied. One very interesting "fact" there is the massive shipments during the 1980's.I don't recall the exact amounts of this "aod," but, the figure of $18 billion comes to mind.

What is interesting about these shipments is that they are where Saddam got much of his weaponry. They went to Israel, on to China and thence to Iraq.

Whether Israel received the money from Iraq, I do not know - I suspect it did.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear eureka,

Keep in mind that Israel is mainly a 'clearing house' for goods and services. They are the world's largest exporter of diamonds, for example, none of which are produced in that country. For something to pass through that country, (be it even paperwork) on to another, and have money come in from elsewhere, is the basis of the Israeli economy.

[Guest eureka]

This was shipment of armaments. There destination would have been ordained by the US and they would not have gone through a clearing house.

I never investigated further. I suspect, though, that they served the dual purpose of arming Sadamm and giving financial aid to Israel.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear eureka,

This was shipment of armaments. There destination would have been ordained by the US

An 'end user certificate' for armaments shipments is only as good as as the word of those involved. The arms producers (in the US, in this case) only have to say that they got one, which is enough to satisfy law. Then, many countries (such as Israel, and many others) have an 'arms bazaar', where people with cash can buy goods. Sometimes these are French Excocets, sometimes they are US Stinger missiles.

[Guest eureka]

I really don't think that argument holds much water. The USA does not supply massive armaments to one country without knowing of the disposition. Of particular interest is the timing. This was at the time of the currying of support for Hussein as a wedge against Iran.

The money also ended up in Israel.

Note the route, too. Why?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear eureka,

I suspect, though, that they served the dual purpose of arming Sadamm and giving financial aid to Israel.

I suspect you are right.

I really don't think that argument holds much water.

It doesn't really matter what you think, that is how it's done, by many countries.

The US has many wacky laws, some of them have to do with not selling arms to brutal dictatorships. One way of circumventing these laws is to obtain an 'end user certificate' and have them (the end-user) move the goods along. (They can always claim that they 'bought too much', and needed to sell the surplus, or, their needs have changed) Another way is to have it shunted through an off-shore proprietary, which isn't subjected to US law. The latter method is how Halliburton continues to trade with Iran, even though they (Iran) are part of the 'axis of evil'.