Criminal Justice System - Jury or not, and how?

[JamesHackerMP]

I think my point was--and we seem to have departed both from that and from the topical intent of the original poster--that going from a jury system to a European-style justice system is more complicated than you seem to think. Do you also think that the United States (or Canada, ex-Quebec) should go to a codified law rather than common law?

[JamesHackerMP]

On 4/30/2018 at 12:47 PM, Argus said:

In France they have one lawyer for every 1400 people. In the US it's one for every 300. Have you ever considered why that is? 

No, why? Have you considered it might have something to do with other factors than the use of juries? There are different types of lawyers, you know. Not all of them are connected with criminal trials. Do you have any data on the numbers of these diverse types of lawyers?

Americans have a very litigious legal culture. Meaning, we sue a lot. That isn't a criminal trial but a civil suit. So for all you know, most of those lawyers are civil trial types, not criminal defense attorneys.

There are also lawyers who don't even go into court but engage in research and other legal services that do not require stepping into a courtroom, believe it or not. They are counted as "lawyers", because they have their JD and passed the bar exam.

Anyway, to further my point, the entry on "attorneys in the United States":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorneys_in_the_United_States

pay special attention to this paragraph:

Quote

The United States legal system does not draw a distinction between lawyers who plead in court and those who do not, unlike many other common law jurisdictions. For example, jurisdictions in the United Kingdom distinguish between solicitors who do not plead in court, and the barristers of the English and Welsh systems and advocates of the Scottish system, who do plead in court. Likewise, civil law jurisdictions distinguish between advocates and civil law notaries. An additional factor that differentiates the American legal system from other countries is that there is no delegation of routine work to notaries public.

So it seems to me that the massive numbers of lawyers in the States is likely due to this distinction; not to the use of juries in criminal cases.

Edited May 3, 2018 by JamesHackerMP

[Queenmandy85]

The real solution is to put more money into the court process to have trials in a timely manner. We need more Judges and Crown Prosecutors.

[Argus]

5 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The real solution is to put more money into the court process to have trials in a timely manner. We need more Judges and Crown Prosecutors.

I don't think the difference between the criminal justice system in the UK and the one in Canada is merely that they pay more for theirs, though I'd love to see the comparisons. I have looked in the past but been unable to find much.

[Queenmandy85]

Actually, the money would be better spent on prevention. For some reason, our police are welded to reactive policing rather than crime prevention. 

[Centerpiece]

On 5/2/2018 at 3:11 PM, Argus said:

This is the type of answer the Left usually coughs up when you talk about health care reform. The immediately start shrieking about how you must want American style health care.

Guess what? There is a point somewhere between the extremes of "three years to have a trial" and "guilty immediately with no proof required".

Suggesting the only alternative to a more efficient, effective system is China is intellectually barren.

No kidding. There's nothing really wrong with the Left in general (or the Right) - as long as they are within shouting distance of the center. I've mentioned before that Canada needs the Left as much as we need the Right - to give us that balanced stability that has served us so well. You can't please all the people all the time - and we know that you can't please some of the people at any time. It's the extremists/alarmists on the Left and their counterparts on the Right that we have to treat with a big grain of salt. In a democracy, we still have to listen for granules of substance but for the most part, their shrill shouting down of anything they don't agree with should be given zero legitimacy.  Unfortunately, our media likes to give too much space to these shrill voices. Ever notice the photographs of some "demonstrations" where there are likely only 10 or 15 people but the camera shot is in the front with the background blocked out. Anyway, I digress.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Centerpiece said:

No kidding. There's nothing really wrong with the Left in general (or the Right) - as long as they are within shouting distance of the center. I've mentioned before that Canada needs the Left as much as we need the Right - to give us that balanced stability that has served us so well. You can't please all the people all the time - and we know that you can't please some of the people at any time. It's the extremists/alarmists on the Left and their counterparts on the Right that we have to treat with a big grain of salt. In a democracy, we still have to listen for granules of substance but for the most part, their shrill shouting down of anything they don't agree with should be given zero legitimacy.  Unfortunately, our media likes to give too much space to these shrill voices. Ever notice the photographs of some "demonstrations" where there are likely only 10 or 15 people but the camera shot is in the front with the background blocked out. Anyway, I digress.

The problem is there's a lack of balance in our country. The Left has almost all the influence. Cultural figures, the media, academics, unions, all are quite some distance to the Left. It's a self-congratulatory mob who think of themselves as noble for they're all so earnestly in pursuit of 'social justice' and 'equality' and 'diversity', and they have no time for disagreement. They're absolutely uninterested in anyone who wants to cut taxes or lower spending. Such people must hate the poor! They must not care about injustice! They're HORRIBLE people and should be shouted down!

[Centerpiece]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

The problem is there's a lack of balance in our country. The Left has almost all the influence. Cultural figures, the media, academics, unions, all are quite some distance to the Left. It's a self-congratulatory mob who think of themselves as noble for they're all so earnestly in pursuit of 'social justice' and 'equality' and 'diversity', and they have no time for disagreement. They're absolutely uninterested in anyone who wants to cut taxes or lower spending. Such people must hate the poor! They must not care about injustice! They're HORRIBLE people and should be shouted down!

More and more people are becoming aware of that - evidenced by the voices on the Left getting shriller as their empty arguments and slogans get called out - and it's the reason someone like Jordan Peterson is despised by these people. It's galling that the media call him controversial and polarizing when in fact, the substance of his views reflect those of a vast majority of Canadians - and people all around the globe. The last 30 or 40 years has seen the withdrawal of men from the elementary and high-schools, the activism of unions, and the growing influence of  Social and Humanities "professors". Just as important though, is the absence of Canadian political history and solid civic education - emphasizing that balance and stability that has served Canada so well. If we don't turn it around soon, I fear for the soul of our country.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Centerpiece said:

More and more people are becoming aware of that - evidenced by the voices on the Left getting shriller as their empty arguments and slogans get called out - and it's the reason someone like Jordan Peterson is despised by these people. It's galling that the media call him controversial and polarizing when in fact, the substance of his views reflect those of a vast majority of Canadians - and people all around the globe. The last 30 or 40 years has seen the withdrawal of men from the elementary and high-schools, the activism of unions, and the growing influence of  Social and Humanities "professors". Just as important though, is the absence of Canadian political history and solid civic education - emphasizing that balance and stability that has served Canada so well. If we don't turn it around soon, I fear for the soul of our country.

Well given those in charge will baldly state we have no culture, or in Trudeau's words, we have no core identity, you can't expect them to care about that. As for Canadian political history, the only thing they want to teach is how awful we were to all identity groups, especially natives. Witness Trudeau's weepy apology to the world at the UN about what a miserable shithole Canada was. The latest stupidity on the part of progressives is to persuade every group of any size to start every day or meeting by acknowledging they're on land that was stolen from natives, basically delegitimizing Canada as a nation.