The case of Jeremiah Perry

[Boges]

Not sure how debatable is, but it's a really interesting story. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jeremiah-perry-tdsb-algonquin-park-1.4249678

Quote

 

Jeremiah Perry, 15, did not pass a swim test prior to going on a Toronto District School Board canoe trip to Algonquin Park in early July, says the board.

TDSB protocol requires that students pass a swim test in order to go on such a trip.

Jeremiah was one of 33 students from C.W. Jefferys Collegiate Institute and Westview Centennial Secondary School who were participating in the week-long outdoor education excursion as part of the summer-school curriculum. Jeremiah's 17-year-old brother was also on the trip.

The students were three days into their canoe trip northeast of Toronto when Jeremiah slipped under the water while swimming in Big Trout Lake. When he didn't resurface, police were called. His death appears to be a drowning but an official cause of death has not been determined yet.

According to the school board, of the 30 students on the trip who took the swim test, 15 failed.

Fortunately there weren't more tragedies, says Joshua Anderson, Jeremiah's father. In speaking with reporters, his message to other parents was "just go down on your knees and thank God that you guys aren't the ones who got the call in the night ... because it could have been worse, given the numbers that everyone found out today, it could have been worse."

 

Who's to blame? Should the teachers be fired immediately? Apparently they are refusing to co-operate with the Board. 

Are you a bad parent if you let your child go on a canoe trip and know they can't swim? Even if the teachers say it'll be fine. 

News comes out today that a parent is claiming that a teacher called them and insisted that her daughter go on the trip even though they couldn't swim. It looks like teachers were fudging paperwork just so they could get enough kids to come on the trip as they could, so it would go ahead. One of the teachers brought their girlfriend, child and dog on the trip. It seems the teachers were using this as a vacation. 

I actually think this borders on criminal behaviour and I hope the teachers face the wrath of the authorities. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Boges

[capricorn]

This is so tragic. IMO it could have been prevented. The teachers involved are directly responsible for this boy's death. I ache for the parents.

I am opposed to these field trips organized by schools for a couple of reasons. There are too many teachers who lack common sense when it comes to organizing activities outside the classrooms. In addition, there is peer pressure involved. Too many students thinking of not signing up for these trips fear being labelled a "nerd" and will sign up simply to be accepted by the group. That is where matters can go horribly wrong.

Those teachers need to be punished accordingly.

Edited August 18, 2017 by capricorn

[hot enough]

No person should ever drown. Humans don't sink. Panicking humans drown.

[AngusThermopyle]

On 8/19/2017 at 0:17 PM, hot enough said:

No person should ever drown. Humans don't sink. Panicking humans drown.

That's not entirely true, different humans have different densities. A person with more fat will float easier than a person who has less fat. Combine this with the fact that our bodies consist mostly of water and thus are pretty close to the density of water and it becomes easy to see why some people do not float naturally.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/muscle-versus-fat/

[GostHacked]

Was a life jacket even used?? If not, why not?

[Michael Hardner]

On 8/18/2017 at 11:04 AM, Boges said:

I actually think this borders on criminal behaviour and I hope the teachers face the wrath of the authorities. 

Despite the excessive bureaucracy, and safety checks this horrible accident happened.  I doubt we'll ever get a satisfactory answer as to what happened.

[capricorn]

The OPP is conducting a criminal investigation. This case if far from over.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/08/21/opps-criminal-investigators-are-now-probing-the-drowning-death-of-torontos-jeremiah-perry.html

Let's hope that wherever this investigation leads, no more children will die needlessly.

[Boges]

37 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Despite the excessive bureaucracy, and safety checks this horrible accident happened.  I doubt we'll ever get a satisfactory answer as to what happened.

Because the teachers apparently sidestepped all the safeguards. 

[capricorn]

3 minutes ago, Boges said:

Because the teachers apparently sidestepped all the safeguards. 

Which is why I don't trust school boards and teachers when it comes to taking students on field trips. School boards and teachers should stick to a job description that is limited to teaching our children in the classroom.

[Michael Hardner]

47 minutes ago, Boges said:

Because the teachers apparently sidestepped all the safeguards. 

Or somebody told them to.  Or they instructed somebody not to let the students near water and it didn't get passed on.  Or... Or...

We'll have to wait to see what comes out of this, but there will be much ass covering in any case.

[dre]

On 8/21/2017 at 4:39 PM, capricorn said:

Which is why I don't trust school boards and teachers when it comes to taking students on field trips. School boards and teachers should stick to a job description that is limited to teaching our children in the classroom.

Seems crazy to me. That would rule out all extra-curricular activities, like sports,  and all kinds of other things. I think these things have value. 

[hot enough]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:04 AM, AngusThermopyle said:

That's not entirely true, different humans have different densities. A person with more fat will float easier than a person who has less fat. Combine this with the fact that our bodies consist mostly of water and thus are pretty close to the density of water and it becomes easy to see why some people do not float naturally.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/muscle-versus-fat/

It is entirely true. Humans have two large sacs of air that will fully prevent a person from drowning. Panic, not knowing how to use these sacs, and wild water conditions can affect this, however, that means that these conditions put panic back into play, which means the air sacs aren't used to their full potential. 

[AngusThermopyle]

22 hours ago, hot enough said:

It is entirely true. Humans have two large sacs of air that will fully prevent a person from drowning. Panic, not knowing how to use these sacs, and wild water conditions can affect this, however, that means that these conditions put panic back into play, which means the air sacs aren't used to their full potential. 

Yes. our lungs act as flotation devices. However these devices become less effective under varying conditions and will fail to act as such given adverse conditions, or just simple exhaustion. Here's an easy experiment you can try. Take a boat out into the middle of lake Ontario and jump into the water. If as you claim no one should ever drown, stay there for 24 to 36 hours and see how you do. Just to make it even more accurate choose a stormy day to do it. It should be no problem since you know more about it than anyone else and have claimed no one should drown.

[hot enough]

 

10 minutes ago, AngusThermopyle said:

Yes. our lungs act as flotation devices. However these devices become less effective under varying conditions and will fail to act as such given adverse conditions, or just simple exhaustion. Here's an easy experiment you can try. Take a boat out into the middle of lake Ontario and jump into the water. If as you claim no one should ever drown, stay there for 24 to 36 hours and see how you do. Just to make it even more accurate choose a stormy day to do it. It should be no problem since you know more about it than anyone else and have claimed no one should drown.

Can you read, Angus?

I said, " Panic, not knowing how to use these sacs, and wild water conditions can affect this". Obviously, there are parameters in play here found within the original story that come into play. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that hypothermia, wild water, etc could have some effect. Exhaustion comes from panic. Lungs cannot fail to act as flotation devices barring extraordinary circumstances. Mostly people drown because people panic. 

 I once saw a video of a man who floated down the Colorado River at high water to prove that a historical account of that happening was possible. He could have drowned within 200 yards, had he panicked. 

 

[AngusThermopyle]

6 minutes ago, hot enough said:

 

Can you read, Angus?

I said, " Panic, not knowing how to use these sacs, and wild water conditions can affect this". Obviously, there are parameters in play here found within the original story that come into play. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that hypothermia, wild water, etc could have some effect. Exhaustion comes from panic. Lungs cannot fail to act as flotation devices barring extraordinary circumstances. Mostly people drown because people panic. 

 I once saw a video of a man who floated down the Colorado River at high water to prove that a historical account of that happening was possible. He could have drowned within 200 yards, had he panicked. 

 

It's not all about panic, exhaustion plays a huge part in drowning, can you not read. Unlike you who relies purely on speculation I actually have real life experience in this topic. I spent 11 years at sea and was fully trained in sea survival. I can tell you from personal experience that once you start to get tired, no matter how calm you are, you will find it increasingly hard to stay afloat. As you become tired it becomes harder to control your breathing, you start to swallow water, it becomes an escalating situation. Like I said, try my experiment and then get back to us with your results.

It can't be denied that panic is a major contributor to drowning but to say no one should drown is just unrealistic and naive.

Edited August 25, 2017 by AngusThermopyle

[hot enough]

31 minutes ago, AngusThermopyle said:

It's not all about panic, exhaustion plays a huge part in drowning, can you not read. Unlike you who relies purely on speculation I actually have real life experience in this topic. I spent 11 years at sea and was fully trained in sea survival. I can tell you from personal experience that once you start to get tired, no matter how calm you are, you will find it increasingly hard to stay afloat. As you become tired it becomes harder to control your breathing, you start to swallow water, it becomes an escalating situation. Like I said, try my experiment and then get back to us with your results.

It can't be denied that panic is a major contributor to drowning but to say no one should drown is just unrealistic and naive.

The case in point is the Perry boy. For you to start taking these wild ass examples is typical of you. Getting tired does in no way reduce the floating capacity of one's lungs. Yes, if one were to become totally exhausted, hypothermia would likely have already got them. 

Like I said, your experiment is a wild ass bit of nonsense. 

[Boges]

I never thought this thread would drift into a debate about whether it shouldn't be easy for you to drown. 

[AngusThermopyle]

On 8/25/2017 at 0:50 PM, hot enough said:

The case in point is the Perry boy. For you to start taking these wild ass examples is typical of you. Getting tired does in no way reduce the floating capacity of one's lungs. Yes, if one were to become totally exhausted, hypothermia would likely have already got them. 

Like I said, your experiment is a wild ass bit of nonsense. 

No, my experiment is based on reality. If like you say people should not drown then prove it. It's simple enough, just do as I suggested and get back to us with your results. You wont though because you know you're full of sh*t and you'd die. You'd die just likely the literally millions of others who have drowned throughout history. You just don't know how to concede anything do you? No matter how stupid you end up looking.

[hot enough]

On 8/28/2017 at 4:11 PM, AngusThermopyle said:

No, my experiment is based on reality. If like you say people should not drown then prove it.

From the initial article: The students were three days into their canoe trip northeast of Toronto when Jeremiah slipped under the water while swimming in Big Trout Lake. 

While your experiment COULD be based on reality, you most certainly are not, Angus. Were the kids in the water for the full "three days into their canoe trip"? 

Even though you know I was describing the situation as per the article you flew off on some crazy Angus Thermopile "experiment" that didn't come close to the actual reality. 

[hot enough]

Quite the cowardly response. It saddens me to say that all too often this is exactly how far too many conservatives react.