Vimy Memorial vs Tannenberg Memorial

[August1991]

Is there a difference?

Tannenberg Memorial

Vimy Memorial

 

 

Edited May 5, 2017 by August1991

[Wilber]

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

Is there a difference?

Tannenberg Memorial

Vimy Memorial

 

 

Yes.

 

Tannenberg

 

Don't build monuments to celebrate victories in countries you have invaded unless you can stick around to make sure they don't get blown up if you leave.

Vimy

 Built with the approval of a country we helped defend.

 

[DogOnPorch]

Tannenberg was actually in East Prussia...not Poland. Part of Germany. Poland didn't exist.

Imperial Russia invaded in 1914 under Samsanov and Rennenkampf (2nd and 1st Armies respectively). The tiny German 8th Army under Von Prittwitz tried to fend them off but was driven back after initial clashes. Von Prittwitz was replaced by Hindenburg and Ludendorff who turned the situation around with skillful use of East Prussia's rail system. The Battle of Tannenberg resulted and was a decisive German victory...the 2nd Army was destroyed outright and the remaining elements of the 1st Army routed.

Had only the rest of the Eastern Campaign gone so well for Germany...

Edited May 5, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[Wilber]

Hindenburg named the battle Tannenberg as a stick in the eye to the Poles because it was also the site of a big Polish victory over the Teutonic Knights in the 15th century. Poland didn't exist at the time because it had been carved up between by the Russians, Prussians and Austrians in the late 1700's. Is it any wonder the Poles wouldn't want a German monument there.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Wilber

[DogOnPorch]

Sorry: Tannenberg was in East Prussia.

Poland was part of the Russian Empire.

Russia invaded...not Germany.

[Wilber]

 Prior to the partitions in 1795 when Poland was split up between the Prussians, Austrians and Russians, the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth at one time extended over Prussia and much of Ukraine and Belarus. I guess the question is how far back do you want to go. Prussia itself was conquered territory.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Wilber said:

 Prior to the partitions in 1795 when Poland was split up between the Prussians, Austrians and Russians, the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth at one time extended over Prussia and much of Ukraine and Belarus. I guess the question is how far back do you want to go. Prussia itself was conquered territory.

 

I'm well aware of the history going back to the Middle Ages etc...

Fact remains: Russia invaded Germany...not the other way around.

Modern Poland didn't exist until AFTER WW1. Medieval Poland/Prussia aside...

The first thing modern Poland did was get involved in the Russian Civil War/Russo-Polish War. Survived! Lucky...

 

 

[Wilber]

 

Poland did exist up until 1795 when it was partitioned by Russia, Prussia and Austria. They just got together and divided it up and the Poles didn't have any say in the matter.

Russian did invade in 1914. It also invaded in 1920 when Poland saved Europe's ass by defeating the Bolshevik armies outside Warsaw. If the Bolschevik's had won, there was very little between them and the North Sea at the time.

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, Wilber said:

 

Poland did exist up until 1795 when it was partitioned by Russia, Prussia and Austria. They just got together and divided it up and the Poles didn't have any say in the matter.

Russian did invade in 1914. It also invaded in 1920 when Poland saved Europe's ass by defeating the Bolshevik armies outside Warsaw. If the Bolschevik's had won, there was very little between them and the North Sea at the time.

I'm well aware of Poland's partition...the political cartoons of the time were pretty humorous if you do a search.

And...like...so what? Tannenberg is one of the most decisive military victories ever fought. It deserves its memorial for the slaughtered as well as the victorious. A great book on the subject is Solzhenitsyn's "August 1914"...not too many innocent types involved if you ask moi...

Kicking over tombstones is uncool...any tombstones.

[Wilber]

Right, I'm sure they were extra humorous if you were a Pole.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Wilber

[Wilber]

Tannenberg 1914 was one of the most decisive tactical victories ever fought, a 20th century Cannae but like Cannae it had no effect on the final outcome the war. In historical importance, JFC Fuller rated Warsaw 1920 as one of the most important battles in Western history even though most people have never heard of it.

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, Wilber said:

Right, I'm sure they were extra humorous if you were a Pole.

 

Perhaps send me a strongly worded PM. Feel free to rewrite history.

[Wilber]

Obviously not a Pole.

[Wilber]

BTW, it was the Germans who removed the remains of the people buried there and blew up the monument when they retreated in 1945. The Poles just cleaned up the mess.

[DogOnPorch]

4 minutes ago, Wilber said:

BTW, it was the Germans who removed the remains of the people buried there and blew up the monument when they retreated in 1945. The Poles just cleaned up the mess.

 

Seeing what the Red Army's mood was at the time...no doubt.

[DogOnPorch]

23 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Obviously not a Pole.

Volga German/English roots...and a few other dashes and drams.

Am I supposed to feel different if I was a Pole or a Kashube? Blood lust against Russia or Germany? You have a funny outlook on history.

[Wilber]

6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Volga German/English roots...and a few other dashes and drams.

Am I supposed to feel different if I was a Pole or a Kashube? Blood lust against Russia or Germany? You have a funny outlook on history.

Guess I just wouldn't find cartoons depicting the dismantling my country humorous.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Wilber said:

Guess I just wouldn't find cartoons depicting the dismantling my country humorous.

Well look-up Volga Germany, Mr Righteous.

[August1991]

On 5/5/2017 at 10:53 AM, DogOnPorch said:

Sorry: Tannenberg was in East Prussia.

Poland was part of the Russian Empire.

Russia invaded...not Germany.

Sorry, Wilbur. I'm with DogOnPorch on this question.

Tannenburg was in (East) Prussia.

====

As to your "invaded unless you can stick around" argument, it truly intrigues me.

[DogOnPorch]

5 hours ago, August1991 said:

Sorry, Wilbur. I'm with DogOnPorch on this question.

Tannenburg was in (East) Prussia.

====

As to your "invaded unless you can stick around" argument, it truly intrigues me.

 

To give an example of how checkered this area is re: Germany/Poland...in 1939 during the invasion of Poland, Guderian crossed the Vistula River with his Panzer Divisions at Kulm...his birthplace...which in the First World War was part of Prussia...

Kulm is better known by its Polish name...Chelmno. Site of one of the most horrific Aktion Reinhard camps of WW2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chełmno_extermination_camp

[Wilber]

13 hours ago, August1991 said:

Sorry, Wilbur. I'm with DogOnPorch on this question.

Tannenburg was in (East) Prussia.

====

As to your "invaded unless you can stick around" argument, it truly intrigues me.

Yup, it was in East Prussia, now it is in Poland. After being invaded and having its population decimated, it shouldn't be surprising if the Poles didn't want a huge monument to the German military on its soil. As pointed out, it was the Germans who removed the bodies and began the demolition, not the Poles. It is quite likely the Soviets would have destroyed it but after being invaded themselves and losing 20 million of its citizens, who could really blame them. I wouldn't. Besides, in comparison with what the Germans did to genuine world treasures like the Peterhof and Catherine Palace before they retreated from Leningrad, knocking down a giant 20 year old monument to German militarism would be nothing.

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Wilber
stuttered

[August1991]

On 5/16/2017 at 1:00 PM, Wilber said:

Yup, it was in East Prussia, now it is in Poland. After being invaded and having its population decimated, it shouldn't be surprising if the Poles didn't want a huge monument to the German military on its soil. As pointed out, it was the Germans who removed the bodies and began the demolition, not the Poles. It is quite likely the Soviets would have destroyed it but after being invaded themselves and losing 20 million of its citizens, who could really blame them. I wouldn't. Besides, in comparison with what the Germans did to genuine world treasures like the Peterhof and Catherine Palace before they retreated from Leningrad, knocking down a giant 20 year old monument to German militarism would be nothing.

The Vimy Ridge Memorial was erected in 1936. The occupying (Nazi) Germans in France left the monument in place.

The Tannenburg Memorial was removed in 1949 - under the occupying (Soviet) Russians. (According to you Wibur, it was Germans who began the demolition.)

Were the Nazis "good" because they left Vimy in place but the Soviets "bad" because they removed Tannenburg?

=====

Nazis, Soviets, Churchill, Lenin, Stalin, Nixon, Obama, Lennon, Hitler, Napoleon - <sarcasm>I favour peace: I believe in love .</sarcasm> 

[Wilber]

The Soviets didn't remove the Tannenberg Memorial, the Germans started it and the Poles finished it.  Not according to me, look it up for yourself. The Poles actually allowed the Nazis access to the Monument in 1933 so they could expand it, have a big celebration and intern Hindenburg etc. The Germans then invaded Poland which lost 20% of its population as a result. 20% of its people. Dead. Perhaps a monument to the 1410 Polish victory over the Teutonic Knights in the same place would be more appropriate.