Education Ranking: Canada in Top 10 of 40

[August1991]

The OECD puts Finland on top. Australia and Korea do consistently better than us.

Do we get our money's worth?

OECD Report

OECD Data

[Newfie Canadian]

According to the article we do.

Nor is high expenditure necessarily a key to success: a number of countries do well in terms of "value for money" in their education systems, including Australia, Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Japan, Korea and the Netherlands, while some of the "big spenders" perform below the OECD average.

[August1991]

Good point Newf, I saw that phrase and thought about Korea.

Also, I`d like to see a provincial breakdown of the stats.

All things considered, Canada has a good education system but then we`ve also got the money to pay for it. Do we get our money`s worth?

[Newfie Canadian]

I'd like to see a provincial breakdown too August, especially since education is a provincial responsibilty.

Like everything else, I suspect that some provinces do better than others, not through monetary bombardment, but through good management and good selection of criteria and cirriculum.

I think if you average out the good and the not so good areas over the provinces and territories, it would work out that Canadians get a good return for the money spent in education.

Speaking as a product of the NL school system, we could do better.

[Guest eureka]

Do those stats reflect the drags that may be there on performance? Do they count the immigrants who will not perform as well, initially.

Canada has a greater proportion of these. Provincial figures might also be affected. Ontario has a much greater proportion of these in its schools. Would it be fair to compare Ontario to Alberta wjthout allowing for this variable?

[August1991]

I'd like to see a provincial breakdown too August, especially since education is a provincial responsibilty.

I have a suspicion that Maritimes spend less per student than say Alberta but may perform as well.

Do they count the immigrants who will not perform as well, initially.

One of the more depressing aspects of our education system is "streaming" (or whatever the term is) and the tendency to put immigrants into the "vocational" stream(or whatever the term is). This is common in Quebec because language ability is so-often used to measure general ability.

As a side point, I am extremely suspicious when I see Korea come first in any competition. In this case, I suspect Korean students were well prepared in advance.

[Big Blue Machine]

Or they are just plain smarter than us? Maybe it's because of all the raw fish they eat. It helps make them smarter.

[maplesyrup]

I am extremely suspicious when I see Korea come first in any competition.

Huh?

[fellowtraveller]

From todays Edmonton Journal"

"

A new international study says Alberta's 15-year-old students not only outshine their peers across Canada but also rank among the world's best in math, reading, science and problem solving. ...showed Alberta's teens placed second in math and reading, fourth in science and problem solving"

That's second and fourth in the world, first in Canada.

Alberta spends more per capita than any other province on education. They have also completely changed their approach to the adminstration and funding of education in the province in the last decade.

Alberta also enjoys a large and increasing percentage of immigrant students, especially in urban centers.

[maplesyrup]

Student Testing at Breaking Point?

Campbell says the campaign to get rid of the grade 10 exams began with parents standing around the edges of a soccer field talking about the skyrocketing anxiety levels of kids just starting high school. The prospect of having to write provincial exams in two years seemed to be behind it all.  “A grade 8 worrying about provincials: that’s nuts,” she says.  “We’re going to foster anxiety, and with everything we know about adolescent depression and teenage suicides, what’s going on?”

All these tests are bullshit and should be scrapped - kids need to be allowed to be kids.

[fellowtraveller]

In another astonishing coincidence, Alberta also has standardized testing of all kids in Grades 3, 6, and 9 in basic skills. For some reason, they think it allows them to identify children that are being left behind, and to try and help them individually. It is of particular benefit to immigrant kids, since it's sometimes harder to assess their skills with language issues.

It's only been a partial success as overall the students only rank 2nd in the world.

The kids don't seem to mind, but the teachers union hates them. Performance indicators, you know.

[August1991]

All these tests are bullshit and should be scrapped - kids need to be allowed to be kids.

I wouldn't say the tests are "bullshit" but they measure what they measure. And kids just being kids can lead to a tremendous waste of time, energy and wanton destruction. But MS, I get your point and in a way I agree with you. Kids need to be allowed to think outside the box.

And that, sort of, leads to my remark about Korea. IME, when it comes to educational tests and so on, Korean educators go about it in a monomaniacal way. But it's all rote learning.

He insisted, for example, that rote learning of names and rules was neither effective nor desirable, but that children had to be led to "discover" principles and relationships.

Horace Mann

[maplesyrup]

Canadian math students rank 7th in international study

The report praised Canada for maintaining high educational standards across the country.

It also gave Canada high marks – along with Finland, Japan and China – for its high scores from students across various socio-economic backgrounds.

"In these countries, not only are high average standards maintained, but differences in the extent to which students reach these standards are determined relatively little by their home background," the report said.

Canada is one of 30 OECD members and 11 partner countries that participated in the study.

Nothing like having a solid public education system where educated people (teachers) are able to wield a bit of power, have some clout, in the system.

So what is it about Finland that produces those kind of results for them. It is a Northern Hemosphere thingy?

[Guest eureka]

Standardized testing is a recent introduction in Ontario and it is destructive.

Marks are improving but education is not. Together with a "new" and crowded curriculum, it has forced teachers to teach only what is likely to be tested and to forgo educating the kids.

Thinking outside the box is rapidly becoming a quaint relic of the past.

[maplesyrup]

"The only difference between a good student and a bad student, is that the good student is careful not to forget what he studied until after the test."

I'm not sure quoting experts from the US system are the wisest ones to quote as 50%, yes that's right, 50% of the black community in New York City is unemployed.

[RB]

i think there is a link between gender, wealth, race, ethnicity, language why the children are not doing well in education

In Japan and Finland they are probably just facing lesser differiential in race, language, ethnicity so they only have to deal with the gender and weatlh - and you might have already alluded to this fact in the write ups

Anyway i wanted to mention about the race born link in Toronto. Success indicators show that

- 54% of english speaking Caribbean children had 14 credits of less at the end of grade 10.

-45% of students born in West Africa, Central or South America would not graduate on time

- 39% of East Africans, 24% South Asians, 23% Eastern Europe, 16% Eastern Asia will not graduate on time

- 27% Canadian born students were at risk

[Tawasakm]

Australia and Korea do consistently better than us.

Actually Canada beat Australia in Mathematics.

[fellowtraveller]

Standardized testing is a recent introduction in Ontario and it is destructive

Baloney, that's what the teachers union propaganda would have you believe. They hate standardized testing not because of anything to do with the children, but becuase it will ultimately identify crap teachers as well as students that need help.

Teachers have fought tooth and nail against any kind of performance indicators. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a standard means of assessment in our schools, and it is long overdue. If you had them everywhere , you wouldn't have people speculating what 30% of tax money is spent on, and wondering if we're getting our moneys worth.

[Guest eureka]

What is baloney is your response (not rebuttal - it does not deserve that dignity). It is a response from the kind of ignorance that would call true statements "baloney."

You are, obviously, one of the loud mouth, anti-union crowd who will take all the benefits without giving the credit.

You have no idea what you are writing about. You have some gall writng such criticisms of teachers every one of whom must have a far better understanding of education than you since you have none.

Respond, if you can, when you have learned something. That may require your return to school - this time with your eyes open.

You see, I will not put up with the ignorance that is destroying a generation of children. That is why I am telling you what your baloney comment means. Normally I would simply be amused by stupidity. The future of children is not a subject of amusement.

[shackwacky]

What is baloney is your response (not rebuttal - it does not deserve that dignity). It is a response from the kind of ignorance that would call true statements "baloney."

You are, obviously, one of the loud mouth, anti-union crowd who will take all the benefits without giving the credit.

Was that supposed to be your rebuttal, eureka? You did not address any of the issues that traveller put forth; instead you stooped to name calling and generalizations.

I keep thinking that you must be teacher, since you come undone so rapidly when anyone posts anything negative about Canada's education system. If that is the case, I sincerely hope you control your anger better in a classroom setting.

[Guest eureka]

It may have escaped your notice that the traveler did not put forth any issues. He called issues baloney and made unwarranted attacks on teachers.

His post was pure ignorance as was yours. You are both, from the appearance, jealous of better educated and informed as well as socially responsible people (teachers) than yourselves.

[fellowtraveller]

It is baloney.

Alberta has standardized testing, and leads Canada in student achievement and is nearly the best in the world. The results of this are incontestable and have been all over Canadian papers for days. The testing was done by a subagency of the UN.

The union apologists like Eureka would have you believe this is entirely coincidental. In every jurisdiction where testing is proposed the teachers have fought hard against it, mainly because it does identify substandard teachers and schools. The purpose of the testing though is really to identify kids that need help.

It is a discredit to the profession that they mask this blatant self-interest behind a purported care for the children. Teachers 'Associations' need to formally separate union activities from their admirable advocacy of improved educational standards if they wish to re-establish credibility with the public.

Parents aren't stupid, they can see what is going on.

Many if not most professions have readily defined performance indicators. Education, led by 'professional associations' has fought and continues to fight any kind of assessment. It is very disappointing.

[shackwacky]

Traveller, is this really worth your time? You can argue and address the issues till you are blue in the face, and Eureka will come back with "that is wrong you are inferior and uneducated" type arguments.

[Guest eureka]

Stop the bluster, SW.

Fellowt., if you talk to the profession about the testing regime and the results, you will find different answers.

Schools now teach to the test not to learning. The tests are all important: the new curricula are too dense and leave no room or time for teaching.

Teaching for the test produces better results on the test for poorly educated students.

Tetst do not identify anything about teachers or schools. They could even identify the schools that do try to educate the children instead of piling into them illunderstood and essentially useless information, as underacheiving.

They also have no place in being used as assessment tools for teachers. Teachers undergo constant professional assessment by professionals. These tests have no bearing on teaceher competence.

The very suggestion is an insult to well educated professionals.

Teachers fight hard against these things and others that have been introduced into Ontario because they are an impediment to education.

You really don't reverence world test rankings do you? They are meaningless. Some countries select those to be tested: some select schools: all select in some way. Some are more blatant than others.

[August1991]

Schools now teach to the test not to learning. The tests are all important: the new curricula are too dense and leave no room or time for teaching.

Teaching for the test produces better results on the test for poorly educated students.

I agree. But province-wide testing, for example, at least has the advantage of setting a benchmark.

You really don't reverence world test rankings do you? They are meaningless. Some countries select those to be tested: some select schools: all select in some way. Some are more blatant than others.

It depends. Some places are worse than others.

eureka, there are many, many issues involved here and I'm willing to discuss my thoughts in gereater detail if you want.

In Canada, we take almost everyone at the age of about 4 and put them into an organized, regimented "system" until they are about 16. During this time, we teach our young the basic accumulated knowledge of world civilization: language, mathematics, science, history.

Our experience in Canada of such a universal system is slight, about 50 years. In other rich countries, the experience is perhaps a few years longer.

We still haven't got this right. We are like bankers in Amsterdam or Florence in the 15th century. We are groping to figure out how to do this.

Written language, like mathematics and bicycle riding, is not innate. It must be learned, and learned by doing.