Has society left men behind?

[cybercoma]

I attended school in the 80's for computer analysis and programming and the ratio was probably 60/40 and upon graduation I was immediately hired and worked alongside many female programmers. I am no longer a programmer but I still work in the IT industry and most of the women I worked with have moved up to managerial positions. I no longer see the number of female programmers that once existed. I'm not sure why but it's a great disappointment to me because it's one of the higher paying positions that women should have access to.

You might be interested in this article then: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding

[WestCoastRunner]

You might be interested in this article then: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding

Interesting. I learned programming on the mainframe. PCs were a ways off. Surprisingly enough. I bought a pc for my daughters when they were young and they had no interest in computers at all. But I do think it may have to do with the development platform and as the article points out, it seems to be all about the gaming.

Most young male developers want to work for gaming companies especially here in bc.

Myself and many of my female colleagues worked for financial institutions and insurance companies.

Interesting article.

[Bonam]

You might be interested in this article then: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding

This is a possible hypothesis, but I'm not convinced. Having grown up in the 90s, I can say with confidence that during that decade, a family typically owned one computer, which was shared by everyone that wanted to use it. It was not until the 2000s that it became typical for each member of a family to have their own, including the kids. And if there's a computer in the house, both boys and girls would have wanted to use it, and any parents that encouraged their son to do so but forbade their daughter would have been some special kind of weirdos.

Furthermore, even if the linked hypothesis has any validity as it applies to people who grew up in the 90s and then went to college in the 2000s, it certainly has much less applicability when looking at people today, where all kids, whether boys or girls, are surrounded by computers, tablets, and smartphones from a young age.

[Bonam]

I think it's interesting that this thread, which is about the issues that men are experiencing with current society, has within a few pages been co-opted to talk about the usual complaints about not enough women in such and such fields. I find myself agreeing with e^-1's frequent premise... which is that no one gives a damn about men and their issues.

Everyone here seems just fine examining the finer details of why there aren't more women computer scientists and executives, while waving off with a shrug the vast range of challenges boys face in modern schooling with "oh well, they can go be plumbers".

[WestCoastRunner]

I think it's interesting that this thread, which is about the issues that men are experiencing with current society, has within a few pages been co-opted to talk about the usual complaints about not enough women in such and such fields. I find myself agreeing with e^-1's frequent premise... which is that no one gives a damn about men and their issues.

Everyone here seems just fine examining the finer details of why there aren't more women computer scientists and executives, while waving off with a shrug the vast range of challenges boys face in modern schooling with "oh well, they can go be plumbers".

Well that flies in the face of a far majority of developers are men then women.

Men aren't that bad off. They just need to stop whining and study.

Edited August 23, 2016 by WestCoastRunner

[TimG]

I bought a pc for my daughters when they were young and they had no interest in computers at all.

Which is what it comes down to doesn't it? I am sure you raised your girls to believe they could do whatever they wanted and they did not want to program computers. Why is this a problem? Edited August 23, 2016 by TimG

[WestCoastRunner]

Which is what it comes down to doesn't it? I am sure you raised your girls to believe they could do whatever they wanted and they did not want to program computers. Why is this a problem?

I just said it's disconcerting that more women aren't in this high paying industry as they once were. And I am curious as to why that is.

[Bonam]

Well that flies in the face of a far majority of developers are men then women.

Men aren't that bad off. They just need to stop whining and study.

Yes. They just need to "man up".

[WestCoastRunner]

Yes. They just need to "man up".

Well yea. Sort of. I remember girls doing homework for the boys back in the day because girls were more mature than boys of the same age. I get it. Edited August 23, 2016 by WestCoastRunner

[bush_cheney2004]

This is a possible hypothesis, but I'm not convinced. Having grown up in the 90s, I can say with confidence that during that decade, a family typically owned one computer, which was shared by everyone that wanted to use it. It was not until the 2000s that it became typical for each member of a family to have their own, including the kids. And if there's a computer in the house, both boys and girls would have wanted to use it, and any parents that encouraged their son to do so but forbade their daughter would have been some special kind of weirdos.

Agreed....my experience in the 1970's for STEM education showed a decline in female interest for many technical things: chess competition, programmable calculators, automotive technology, electronics, microprocessor programming, mainframe languages, physics, etc.

Furthermore, even if the linked hypothesis has any validity as it applies to people who grew up in the 90s and then went to college in the 2000s, it certainly has much less applicability when looking at people today, where all kids, whether boys or girls, are surrounded by computers, tablets, and smartphones from a young age.

Clearly the case...we are way beyond Timex and Commodore 8-bit home computers.

[Bonam]

Well yea. Sort of.

Why is "woman up" not a good enough response to girls not going into computer science? Just woman up and study and they can be computer programmers, no problem.

[Bonam]

Agreed....my experience in the 1970's for STEM education showed a decline in female interest for many technical things: chess competition, programmable calculators, automotive technology, electronics, microprocessor programming, mainframe languages, physics, etc.

Probably right around the same timeframe when social justice advocates first started complaining about the patriarchy and the systemic barriers facing women in these fields. How many became discouraged because of all the negativity, the fictional vast obstacles to working in these fields that women before had overcome without a thought but now loomed large through the efforts of activists?

[WestCoastRunner]

Agreed....my experience in the 1970's for STEM education showed a decline in female interest for many technical things: chess competition, programmable calculators, automotive technology, electronics, microprocessor programming, mainframe languages, physics, etc.

Clearly the case...we are way beyond Timex and Commodore 8-bit home computers.

That would certainly depend on what type of school you attended. Many high schools directed women into nursing, secretarial etc. I fought that off by taking data processing courses and the school I attended encouraged both girls and boys to take these subjects.

[WestCoastRunner]

Why is "woman up" not a good enough response to girls not going into computer science? Just woman up and study and they can be computer programmers, no problem.

As I said I don't understand the decline.

[TimG]

I just said it's disconcerting that more women aren't in this high paying industry as they once were.

Men are predisposed to be tinkerers. In the 50-60s this would show up as boys getting interested in car engines. That switched to computers starting in the 80s. In a merit based field, those people who spent time with computers as a hobby have a built in advantage over peers that see computers as a means to an end.

[bush_cheney2004]

That would certainly depend on what type of school you attended. Many high schools directed women into nursing, secretarial etc. I fought that off by taking data processing courses and the school I attended encouraged both girls and boys to take these subjects.

I went to a typical (public) American high school in the U.S. southwest. Home economics courses were still being offered as an elective, as was typing. But girls/women were not steered away from auto shop, wood shop, or advance placement mathematics....they just chose not to do so.

Admiral Grace Hopper was a pioneer in post WW2 computer technology for the U.S. Navy....they even named a ship after her.

[WestCoastRunner]

Men are predisposed to be tinkerers. In the 50-60s this would show up as boys getting interested in car engines. That switched to computers starting in the 80s. In a merit based field, those people who spent time with computers as a hobby have a built in advantage over peers that see computers as a means to an end.

That doesn't explain the drop in females taking computer courses in high school and beyond after the 80's.

[Bonam]

As I said I don't understand the decline.

I think there's been a general decline in interest in technical subjects among both men and women in Western society. They just aren't seen as "cool". Meanwhile, companies have needed more and more programmers and engineers, and these have often been recruited from abroad and came to Western countries as immigrants, a large proportion of them from societies where it was much more likely for men to have any kind of education at all and women to be housewives.

[WestCoastRunner]

I think there's been a general decline in interest in technical subjects among both men and women in Western society. They just aren't seen as "cool". Meanwhile, companies have needed more and more programmers and engineers, and these have often been recruited from abroad and came to Western countries as immigrants, a large proportion of them from societies where it was much more likely for men to have any kind of education at all and women to be housewives.

Don't agree with you there regarding female immigrants working in computers. They are quite numerous in bc.

[bush_cheney2004]

That doesn't explain the drop in females taking computer courses in high school and beyond after the 80's.

Women were taking on plenty of other social, political, and economic challenges/changes at the time.

[WestCoastRunner]

Women were taking on plenty of other social, political, and economic challenges/changes at the time.

That could very well be one of many factors.

[Bonam]

Why do men earn only ~40% of degrees while women earn ~60% of degrees? Why are fewer and fewer men pursuing post secondary education? Does anyone see a problem with this?

Oh wait never mind, I forgot, they can all man up and go be plumbers.

[WestCoastRunner]

I went to a typical (public) American high school in the U.S. southwest. Home economics courses were still being offered as an elective, as was typing. But girls/women were not steered away from auto shop, wood shop, or advance placement mathematics....they just chose not to do so.

Admiral Grace Hopper was a pioneer in post WW2 computer technology for the U.S. Navy....they even named a ship after her.

Of course you are speaking from a boys perspective. Trust me. As a girl, they tend to go with the flow of the same gender. And the female gender were encouraged towards nursing and secretarial courses. That was it in the 70's.

[WestCoastRunner]

Why do men earn only ~40% of degrees while women earn ~60% of degrees? Why are fewer and fewer men pursuing post secondary education? Does anyone see a problem with this?

Oh wait never mind, I forgot, they can all man up and go be plumbers.

I agree it's a problem. Time for men to man up and hit the books much as girls did when they covered for them in elementary and high school. Girls refuse to do their homework.

[Bonam]

Ok so here's the summary I'm getting of your opinion:

If men have any issues, they should man up.

If women have any issues, these should be carefully investigated, their root causes identified, and society changed so as to resolve these issues.

Does that about cover it?