Urban Hunting

[ndpnic]

I live in community of 15,000. We have 1 foodbank, where you have to show assistance or disability slips to use their services.

Where does that leave the working poor to turn?

Urban Hunting!

When your kids are hungry, you have no money left for food after you pay the bills, and you can't access the only foodbank, what do you do?

If you're lucky and have an FAC and it's the "right" season, you can go shot dinner.

But if you don't, then what?

The only thing you can. You go to your local grocery store and steal food. Urban hunting.

My question is, is this really a crime, punishable like all other crimes, or is this what survival in Canada has come to?

Turning good, tax-paying, law-abiding citizens into criminals, because thats the only way to feed their famillies?

Society has allowed the government to remove it's ability to be self sufficient.

Sad country Canada has become!

[Cartman]

Pardon me if I am being naive and seemingly dogmatic, but does not social assistance offer people the basics to avoid these kinds of events?

I have never actually heard of a person stealing because they were hungry but of course, that does not mean it never happens. Do you have a link for us maybe?

[August1991]

The only thing you can. You go to your local grocery store and steal food. Urban hunting.

Then you are caught, get charged with shoplifting and add even more problems to your life.

Boy, that sounds really smart.

[ndpnic]

Pardon me if I am being naive and seemingly dogmatic, but does not social assistance offer people the basics to avoid these kinds of events?

I have never actually heard of a person stealing because they were hungry but of course, that does not mean it never happens. Do you have a link for us maybe?

Social assistance does not supply eonough to provide all the basics.

But I was talking about the people working 40 -50 hours a week, but can't afford all the basics, but aren't able to use the food bank because they're NOT on social assistance! Who feeds there kids?

When does Social Responsibility come in?

Canadians have no problem sending money overseas, yet deny people in Canada live in basically the same conditions : lack of medicines, lack of housing, lack of viable employment and wages, without adequate nurishment?

They say "Charity Begins at Home"

Why do we worry more about helping those a world away, instead of those a block away?

[Guest eureka]

I have known of people who shoplift to survive. Ndpnic does not put the case too strongly in my opinion. Since the turn to the "Right" in social and economic values, widespread poverty has become a fact of life in the Anglo-Saxon world. Only recently has Britain made any attempt to alleviate their problem. Canada and the US, and, I believe, Australia, have done nothing other than make pious promises while grinding the poor down further.

The proportion of people living in poverty has not changed very much over the past twenty or so years but the number, in Canada, has increased. Worse, and not apparent from those kinds of figures, is that the level at which the poor live is substantially lower than it has been at any time since WWII.

In Canada, the freezing of the minimum wage; the exclusion from EI of many who once qualified; and the drastic cuts to welfare rates by, notably, Harris and Klein, have driven the poor to extremity.

I am tired of writing in various places about this. Nothing will ever be done while the propaganda machines of the Right Wingers - the C.D. Howe Institute and the Fraser Institute as well as of the Right leaning parties (I include the Liberals in this) - can comfort the consciences of the majority of Canadians.

[maplesyrup]

eureka.....good post. I couldn't agree more.

And I don't see any meaningful changes taking place until there is violence on the streets.

Just look at the attitude of the right wing posters here at mapleleafweb.

The only solution to these social problems is to have a guaranteed annual income, however there is way too much meanness in our society for that to become a reality. At least in forseable future.

That is why I am always amused when I here Canadians say that we have a Christian society here in Canada. Our hugh gap between the rich and the poor is the very thing that Jesus preached against. It is the biggest con job that has ever been perpetuated on people anywhere. It is always the rich crushing the poor.

[Argus]

And I don't see any meaningful changes taking place until there is violence on the streets.

You mean more mugging?

Just look at the attitude of the right wing posters here at mapleleafweb.

You mean "taxpayers", right? Us folks who pay the bills and resent the fact there are freeloaders sucking at the trough, resent the fact billions and billions are wasted to no good purpose every year while dumbass voters keep putting crooks and liars back in office to keep on doing it?

The only solution to these social problems is to have a guaranteed annual income, however there is way too much meanness in our society for that to become a reality. At least in forseable future.

Maybe if you ever have a job and ever pay taxes you'll try to hang on to as much of your pay cheque as possible too.

[Cartman]

Maybe if you ever have a job and ever pay taxes you'll try to hang on to as much of your pay cheque as possible too.

I have a good job and I have no problems paying taxes. Why do you have a problem? I highly suspect that I pay much more than you do. Maybe you need to work harder on that responsibility thing. If you need to "hang on" to your pay cheque so tightly, maybe you should get another job.

[Argus]

Maybe if you ever have a job and ever pay taxes you'll try to hang on to as much of your pay cheque as possible too.

I have a good job and I have no problems paying taxes. Why do you have a problem? I highly suspect that I pay much more than you do. Maybe you need to work harder on that responsibility thing. If you need to "hang on" to your pay cheque so tightly, maybe you should get another job.

To begin with, much of what the government takes from me is wasted or given to their friends. Do you think I'm unaware of this? The sheep keep voting for corrupt politicians and then lining up meekly to be sheered. And those who complain get called "selfish". Bullshit. I had to give the government a check two months ago for $3k, and I have to give them another one next week. That's on top of my regular deducations, and on top of the 15% I pay every time I want to buy anything with what's left.

What could I do with that money, the money I earned? What I pay in taxes would more than pay the mortgage on a good sized house, as well insurance, all the utilities and (irony) the taxes . Now as it happens, my brother is poor. I could actually buy him a house and pay for it with what the government takes - and then some. Instead I'm forced to give it to corrupt politicians who place no value on it. Who hire legions of their buddies to swill at the public trough, and pay it to campaign contributors in the form of vastly overpriced and underneeded goods and services. Two billion bucks went down the toilet on the gun registry because of ignorant voters who couldn't be bothered to even think of how useless it was - and who trooped out to vote Liberal again.

Another billion went to adscam, and nobody cared. A billion went to wasted programs in HRDC, and no one was interested. Billions go in corporate welfare which is mostly nothing but a disguise for political patronage.

But from the perspective of the dumbass lefties, anyone who resents paying high taxes is somehow selfish. They want to spend our money instead, on causes they believe in. Well tell you what, buddy, if you're so interested in paying out money to the poor then pay them YOUR money.

[Cartman]

Well Argus, I have never voted for the Liberals and I am just as angry as you are about how they have mismanaged tax $$. The problem is that the Cons have turned off so many Canadians that this will continue for some time. I suspect the Libs will get in again unfortunately.

I do not understand why you are so angry at a person who complains about a tough situation when one of your own family members is facing hard times. Ndpnic said that s/he was working but medical problems were the culprit.

What makes me believe that some anti-taxpayers are greedy is that they will readily take this taxpayer money when it comes to doctor's visits and other gov't programs, but then whine about it as if they had billions in the bank. How many people could pay out of pocket for just one catastrophic illness? We need social programs.

[Black Dog]

You mean "taxpayers", right? Us folks who pay the bills and resent the fact there are freeloaders sucking at the trough, resent the fact billions and billions are wasted to no good purpose every year while dumbass voters keep putting crooks and liars back in office to keep on doing it?

Mind you, the biggest freeloaders of all are the one's who never seem to earn the ire of the faux-conservative set: the rich who sequester their wealth in tax havens, who use money politics to move mor enad mor eof the tax burden onto middle and lower income Canadians, the corporations who demand and recieve tax breaks, royalty holidays and handouts from government. No, these tough pseudo-conservatives would rather pick on the weak, and the downtrodden of society to inflate their own paltry sense of self.

Unfortunately, these same bullies in blue are usually too ignorant to realize that "conservative" governments in western democracies have time and time again sold out the working class and the "regular" folks. So in effect, they shoot themselves in the foot.

Maybe if you ever have a job and ever pay taxes you'll try to hang on to as much of your pay cheque as possible too.

I have a job. I pay a good-sized chunk of my earnings in taxes, both income and in hidden taxes like the GST. Yet I never complain because I know that, if it were not for this thing called society (which, incidentally, operates on tax dolalrs) I wouldn't have got where I am today.

To begin with, much of what the government takes from me is wasted or given to their friends. Do you think I'm unaware of this? The sheep keep voting for corrupt politicians and then lining up meekly to be sheered. And those who complain get called "selfish". Bullshit. I had to give the government a check two months ago for $3k, and I have to give them another one next week. That's on top of my regular deducations, and on top of the 15% I pay every time I want to buy anything with what's left.

So yuour solution is to bring in even more crooked politicians? Brilliant.

Honestly, if you think the Conservatives are thje answer to your woes, you're sadly mistaken.

But from the perspective of the dumbass lefties, anyone who resents paying high taxes is somehow selfish. They want to spend our money instead, on causes they believe in. Well tell you what, buddy, if you're so interested in paying out money to the poor then pay them YOUR money

Actually, that is pretty much the definition of selfishness.

Indeed you needn't have posted such an extended diatribe when a simple refrain of "Mine!Mine!Mine!Mine!Mine!Mine!Mine!Mine!Mine!Mine!Mine!Mine!Mine!Mine!" would have sufficed.

[Argus]

Well Argus, I have never voted for the Liberals and I am just as angry as you are about how they have mismanaged tax $$.  The problem is that the Cons have turned off so many Canadians that this will continue for some time.  I suspect the Libs will get in again unfortunately. 

I suspect so, as well, but I'm guessing your alternative is the NDP - who would cheerfully take even more money from me.

I do not understand why you are so angry at a person who complains about a tough situation when one of your own family members is facing hard times.  Ndpnic said that s/he was working but medical problems were the culprit. 

I am not angry. I'm not even irritated. I simply responded to his post and then your sarcastic, cliche'd response. As for my brother, the government's taxes get in the way of my doing more to help him. Now if the government actually used that money to help people. If it did it's best to spend it wisely and not waste it and not give it to its friends, I would be far less unhappy at what it takes from me.

What makes me believe that some anti-taxpayers are greedy is that they will readily take this taxpayer money when it comes to doctor's visits and other gov't programs, but then whine about it as if they had billions in the bank.  How many people could pay out of pocket for just one catastrophic illness?  We need social programs.

You won't get an argument from me about the need for social programs. But our social programs are poorly run and ineffecient - and in a lot of ways ineffective. They could be made vastly better if the politicians didn't steal and waste so much money. Knowing that I am rarely receptive to people who tell me I should pay more money in taxes. If they'd use the money I gave them properly they wouldn't need more!

[maplesyrup]

black_dog.......what you are talking about is the myth of the US dream. This myth that if you work hard enough one day you will be like the rest of these rich people that can take advatage of these morally bankrupct tax shelters etc and avoid taxes all together. What keeps these working people hanging on is the GREED factor. Sad but true. The reality is most of them will go to their graves believing in a system that in reality is punishing them.

Bullies always look to the weakest link to attack. That is why the poor, the unemployed, the sick are always systematically attacked as the parasites in society. The working stiffs don't take the time to think that they are being manipulated by the wealthy who control the mass media, and who encourage them to take their frustrations out on the poor, and governments who try and redistribute the wealth. Neat trick, eh!

[Cartman]

I am not angry. I'm not even irritated. I simply responded to his post and then your sarcastic, cliche'd response.

You mean so logically consistent that it is predictable. Thanx.

You won't get an argument from me about the need for social programs. But our social programs are poorly run and ineffecient - and in a lot of ways ineffective. They could be made vastly better if the politicians didn't steal and waste so much money. Knowing that I am rarely receptive to people who tell me I should pay more money in taxes. If they'd use the money I gave them properly they wouldn't need more!

No argument here.

[Black Dog]

I suspect so, as well, but I'm guessing your alternative is the NDP - who would cheerfully take even more money from me.

You're basing this on....?

See that's the difference: we can conclude, based on their historical performances, that right-of-centre political parties almost inevitably lead to more corruption and waste, greater burdens on the working classes and greater victimization of the marginalized.

Your jabs at the NDP, on the other hand, are based soley on talking pouints from the CPC playbook.

[Argus]

I suspect so, as well, but I'm guessing your alternative is the NDP - who would cheerfully take even more money from me.

You're basing this on....?

History. Not to mention the way every NDP type seems eager to raise taxes and spew money out to solve every problem they imagine exists. The government is not there to solve all of our problems.

[maplesyrup]

If we completely closed off all the tax shelters we would have more than enough to go around including all the government waste, whatever. We will never see the Fraser Institute or the CD Howe Instute do that kind of reasearch, will we. I wonder why! No agenda my ass!

When the rich threaten to leave Canada , then grab their assets as these assets were generated from profits made on the backs of Canadian working people.

People need to start looking up rather than down. Get some velcro to replace your untied shoelaces. It's time we lost our tunnel vision in this country.

[ndpnic]

I wish for 1 day every Canadian who works for less then $10/hr would stay home.

Imagine all the Greedy ones trying live their day!

No Tim Hortons

No gas stations

No malls

No restraunts

No taxi service

No dry cleaners

No office staff

No groceries

No need of BigWigs

I could keep going on if you like.

Canadian Society would come to a complete stand still!

Maybe it's time to respect and appreciate the Peons!!!!

[Black Dog]

History. Not to mention the way every NDP type seems eager to raise taxes and spew money out to solve every problem they imagine exists. The government is not there to solve all of our problems.

I must have missed that period where the NDP held power in Ottawa....

[Argus]

History. Not to mention the way every NDP type seems eager to raise taxes and spew money out to solve every problem they imagine exists. The government is not there to solve all of our problems.

I must have missed that period where the NDP held power in Ottawa....

Hopefully you will go on missing it.

So far taxpayers haven't been quite dumb enough to let the NDP into office, federally.

[ndpnic]

History. Not to mention the way every NDP type seems eager to raise taxes and spew money out to solve every problem they imagine exists. The government is not there to solve all of our problems.

I must have missed that period where the NDP held power in Ottawa....

Hopefully you will go on missing it.

So far taxpayers haven't been quite dumb enough to let the NDP into office, federally.

Don't you mean the GREEDY? Poor people also pay taxes, maybe not as much, but it's more really when you consider what they are left to live on!!!!

[maplesyrup]

Speaking of "Buy Nothing Day' - it is tomorrow or Saturday, or maybe both. We need to make it a complete weekend so people are made to feel a bit uncomfortable with their lack of material things for a couple of days.

[August1991]

If we completely closed off all the tax shelters we would have more than enough to go around including all the government waste, whatever.

MS, now I understand. You believe there is a giant pot of gold just sitting there waiting to be had.

All the rich, mean, greedy bullies have manipulated the media and governments to steal the country blind. If we could only get our hands on this stash, we could all live well and easily.

"They stole it from us, so we have to steal it back."

MS, you have a truly warped and naive view of life and society. It is a Bougon mentality - the same as those who dream of winning the lottery.

We need to make it a complete weekend so people are made to feel a bit uncomfortable with their lack of material things for a couple of days.

Shades of the Chinese Cultural Revolution?

[Cartman]

There is a stash of cash sitting in the federal government. It is called a surplus. The government taxed us too hard and is now not willing to spend it on us. There is a stash of cash in the EI fund and the Auditor General just told the feds. that it was inappropriate to have just sitting there getting bigger and bigger. I get really angry when my tax money just sits there and some people face inappropriate eligibility standards for services.

[maplesyrup]

There is a very simple solution to solving Canada's internal financial issues - let's just tithe.

A 10% inheritance tax will solve our financial problems. Just cancel all other forms of taxation, and 99% of the bureaucracy that goes into collecting them. There would be an abundance for everyone. We are all good Christians here, right.