Elizabeth May Destroys Pipeline Arguments

[On Guard for Thee]

And do you think she is advocating for more?

She does seem to lament the lack of processing capability.

"Why is it Canada has not one refinery capable of processing bitumen"?

[Accountability Now]

She does seem to lament the lack of processing capability.

"Why is it Canada has not one refinery capable of processing bitumen"?

Tell you what, read the next few lines after that quote and tell me what you think of her desire to build new refineries.

[On Guard for Thee]

Tell you what, read the next few lines after that quote and tell me what you think of her desire to build new refineries.

The next few lines simply point out the market impact on tar sands.

[Accountability Now]

The next few lines simply point out the market impact on tar sands.

And why does she choose to directly elaborate on the market impact right after asking the question about refineries?

[cybercoma]

Last time I checked, Alberta gives $15-20 billion more than it receives to the federal coffers per year all due to oil. I think all Canadians have benefited from it.

Is there a higher federal tax rate on Albertans? If not, then they provide exactly as much to the federal government as everyone else.

[ReeferMadness]

You are either delusional or simply trolling for the purpose of being inflammatory.

Given the way Alberta has been run for the express benefit of corporate avarice, I'm sure it seems delusional to you that people might put protection of their health and welfare at the same level as your unfettered right to profit. Welcome to the rest of the world.

When someone can demonstrate that they know how to clean up dilbit in less than 5 years without dredging a river, then maybe we can talk. Until then, Alberta is welcome to pipe its toxic sludge all around its own backyard.

[Accountability Now]

Is there a higher federal tax rate on Albertans? If not, then they provide exactly as much to the federal government as everyone else.

Nope...that same rate is applied however in general the wages, salaries and overall profits from corporations are much larger therefore the money sent through taxation is higher per capita than any other province. Again, there are two parts to this equation: the money sent from Alberta and the money received by Alberta which results in the net. Alberta, Ontario and BC are the only provinces that are net contributors.

If you would like I can show you the graphs.

[Accountability Now]

Welcome to the rest of the world.

That's funny. If you followed the Energy East story you'd realize that its not just Alberta. The 'world' you are talking about includes Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and New Brunswick. I haven't included Quebec in this world yet only because their government is not officially behind it however the majority of their people are including the mayor of Quebec city.

I'm guessing that the rest of the world is a small place since the 'other' world that I live in has all these other people.

When someone can demonstrate that they know how to clean up dilbit in less than 5 years without dredging a river, then maybe we can talk. Until then, Alberta is welcome to pipe its toxic sludge all around its own backyard.

Do you have any examples in Canada that took more than 5 years to clean up? I mean we are living in Canada and talking about a Canadian energy plan but your go to example is Kalamazoo which of course is in the US. By any chance, do you think US regulations or ability to respond may have affected this example?

[ReeferMadness]

That's funny. If you followed the Energy East story you'd realize that its not just Alberta. The 'world' you are talking about includes Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and New Brunswick. I haven't included Quebec in this world yet only because their government is not officially behind it however the majority of their people are including the mayor of Quebec city.

Meh. Sounds like smooth sailing, then. Build away. Sounds like everyone on that side of Canada is going to welcome your sludge pipeline with open arms. :lol:

Do you have any examples in Canada that took more than 5 years to clean up? I mean we are living in Canada and talking about a Canadian energy plan but your go to example is Kalamazoo which of course is in the US. By any chance, do you think US regulations or ability to respond may have affected this example?

Well, it was an Enbridge pipeline, being monitored from Alberta. Are you suggesting that Enbridge has a policy of hiring only idiots south of the border? Or that the EPA actually insists on clean-up up but in Canada it would be OK just to leave toxic sludge in the river?

The Kalamazoo River disaster was the first significant spill of dilbit into a waterway - so far. There is no reason to think this would have turned out any better in Canada.

But hey! It turns out that multi-national oil giants and Alberta business owners are comfortable with the citizens of Montreal putting their water supply at risk for Albertan profits.

[On Guard for Thee]

Do you have any examples in Canada that took more than 5 years to clean up? I mean we are living in Canada and talking about a Canadian energy plan but your go to example is Kalamazoo which of course is in the US. By any chance, do you think US regulations or ability to respond may have affected this example?

When the rupture occurred, alarms sounded at Enbridge's HQ in Edmonton. 18 hours later a resident near the river saw the spill and reported it. It took 5 years to clean it up. Not very good PR for Enbridge.

[ReeferMadness]

When the rupture occurred, alarms sounded at Enbridge's HQ in Edmonton. 18 hours later a resident near the river saw the spill and reported it. It took 5 years to clean it up. Not very good PR for Enbridge.

Yeah. It was actually the fault of someone in Alberta. Don't worry, though. I'm sure they would be MUCH more concerned if it was Montreal's water!

:lol:

[On Guard for Thee]

Yeah. It was actually the fault of someone in Alberta. Don't worry, though. I'm sure they would be MUCH more concerned if it was Montreal's water!

:lol:

You mean eau. Seriously though, I am no authority on pipelines, but I do recall back in the late 80's we were doing a pipeline patrol up in the Mackenzie Valley. We stopped at one of the pump stations and I was given a tour. I seem to recall a technician explaining that each of the stations had pressure sensors that not only could sense a pressure drop (rupture) but could also tell which side of the pumping station the drop was on. That would cause the automatic shutoff at that station but also at the one upstream, thereby isolating the ruptured section and stopping further flow. All of this was automatic and alarms were also sounded.The result of course was the spill would be limited and you knew exactly which section of line to head for. It sounds to me that no such safeguards were installed on this Enbridge line, other than the alarms, and somehow they were ineffective.

[cybercoma]

Nope...that same rate is applied however in general the wages, salaries and overall profits from corporations are much larger therefore the money sent through taxation is higher per capita than any other province. Again, there are two parts to this equation: the money sent from Alberta and the money received by Alberta which results in the net. Alberta, Ontario and BC are the only provinces that are net contributors.

If you would like I can show you the graphs.

No, I don't need graphs. I just need you to admit that someone making $250,000 a year pays the same federal tax rate in Alberta as they do in Québec.

[ReeferMadness]

The result of course was the spill would be limited and you knew exactly which section of line to head for. It sounds to me that no such safeguards were installed on this Enbridge line, other than the alarms, and somehow they were ineffective.

No doubt they have false alarms from time to time. And no doubt there are some negative repercussions for the poor sap who shuts off the pipeline for a false alarm!

[Smallc]

No doubt they have false alarms from time to time.

You'd think they'd at least, you know, investigate them.

[On Guard for Thee]

No doubt they have false alarms from time to time. And no doubt there are some negative repercussions for the poor sap who shuts off the pipeline for a false alarm!

Which is the nice part about automatic shut offs.

[Accountability Now]

Meh. Sounds like smooth sailing, then. Build away. Sounds like everyone on that side of Canada is going to welcome your sludge pipeline with open arms. :lol:

And they should. This is a project and an industry that benefits all Canadians.

Well, it was an Enbridge pipeline, being monitored from Alberta. Are you suggesting that Enbridge has a policy of hiring only idiots south of the border? Or that the EPA actually insists on clean-up up but in Canada it would be OK just to leave toxic sludge in the river?

The question was can you provide an example in Canada and you didn't or can't. The fact it happened on the other side of the border just adds another factor on top of the problem....a factor that Energy East won't have.

The Kalamazoo River disaster was the first significant spill of dilbit into a waterway - so far. There is no reason to think this would have turned out any better in Canada.

When the rupture occurred, alarms sounded at Enbridge's HQ in Edmonton. 18 hours later a resident near the river saw the spill and reported it. It took 5 years to clean it up. Not very good PR for Enbridge.

And where were the Michigan Utilities in the 18 hours? If they would have responded quicker would this have been avoided or seriously downgraded. Aside from accusations of them being 'idiots', they certainly played a role in this.

Though alarms sounded in Enbridge's Edmonton headquarters at the time of the rupture, it was eighteen hours before a Michigan utilities employee reported oil spilling and the pipeline company learned of the spill. Meanwhile, pipeline operators had thought the alarms were possibly caused by a bubble in the pipeline and, while for some time it was shut down, they also increased pressure for periods of hours to try to clear the possible blockage, spilling more oil.[4

As Reefer states....this is the only one of significance and nothing like this has happened in Canada. It could happen in Canada however the learning curve from the ONE time it did happen will certainly play a part in the response time especially with local utilities involved.

[Accountability Now]

You'd think they'd at least, you know, investigate them.

Right....you mean the Michigan Utilities that didn't arrive for 18 hours to investigate?

[Accountability Now]

No, I don't need graphs. I just need you to admit that someone making $250,000 a year pays the same federal tax rate in Alberta as they do in Québec.

I already said the rate was the same. Now perhaps you can admit that the final tax money coming out of Alberta on a net is way larger and in fact positive versus Quebec and most other provinces which is negative.

Do you understand the concept of NET? In other words, the amount of money received by federal government from Alberta entities versus the amount of money spent in Alberta by the federal government?

[On Guard for Thee]

And where were the Michigan Utilities in the 18 hours? If they would have responded quicker would this have been avoided or seriously downgraded. Aside from accusations of them being 'idiots', they certainly played a role in this.

Perhaps they would have responded had somebody at Enbridge bothered to tend the alarm and alert someone. The first indication anyone locally had was when oil began to flow down a street in a subdivision.

[ReeferMadness]

Right....you mean the Michigan Utilities that didn't arrive for 18 hours to investigate?

Really??? You REALLY need to blame this on someone else. I hope there is someone else in Alberta who is capable of accepting responsibility.

Read what I and OGFT wrote above. There was an alarm went off in ALBERTA. Not Michigan, ALBERTA. Did you get that or do I need to write it a few more times?

[Smallc]

Right....you mean the Michigan Utilities that didn't arrive for 18 hours to investigate?

How would they even know about it?

[Accountability Now]

Really??? You REALLY need to blame this on someone else. I hope there is someone else in Alberta who is capable of accepting responsibility.

Read what I and OGFT wrote above. There was an alarm went off in ALBERTA. Not Michigan, ALBERTA. Did you get that or do I need to write it a few more times?

Nope. Enbridge has received the lion's share of the blame and rightfully so. What you fail to acknowledge is that there were other factors involved, namely the US standards for pipelines.

The NTSB also cited the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration's weak regulations regarding pipeline assessment and repair criteria as well as a cursory review of Enbridge's oil spill response plan as contributing to the magnitude of the accident.

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20120710.aspx

As I asked you a number of times already, please show me a relevant case in Canada so that you can justify your claim about it taking 5 years to clean up. Waiting.....

[Smallc]

As I asked you a number of times already, please show me a relevant case in Canada so that you can justify your claim about it taking 5 years to clean up. Waiting.....

Fortunately, we haven't had a dilbit leak.

[Accountability Now]

How would they even know about it?

Three area firefighters were sent to the scene about three hours after the time of the first alarm. They found nothing. The utilities group then found the leak at 11:15 am the next morning.

2010: Enbridge Energy's 6B pipeline, a 30-inch steel pipeline that runs from Griffith, Ind., to Sarnia, Ontario, sustains a 6-foot rupture that begins leaking crude oil into the Talmadge Creek near Marshall at some point during the evening. At 5:58 p.m., an alarm went off at Enbridge's pipeline control center in Edmonton, Alberta, indicating a drop in pressure at the Marshall pump station on the 286-mile pipeline, which would go on to leak 843,000 gallons of crude oil before the leak was stopped. Just before 9:30 p.m., Calhoun County 911 dispatchers begin receiving calls from concerned residents, who report a smell of natural gas near the spill site off Division Drive and Old 27 in Marshall Township. Three area firefighters traveled to the scene to investigate the smell, but were unable to determine the cause or source.

July 26, 2010:At 11:16 a.m., a Consumers Energy employee called the Enbridge control center to alert them of the oil spilling into Talmadge Creek, which feeds into the Kalamazoo River. The company's regional manager was contacted at 11:30 a.m. and company crews are dispatched to the site at 11:45 a.m., where they lay booms to try to contain the oil. Officials from Calhoun and Kalamazoo counties officially launch their responses that afternoon. The response would later include placing booms as far west as Morrow Lake and its dam in Comstock Township in hopes of containing the spill within a roughly 39-mile stretch from where the spill initially occurred.

July 27, 2010: A state of emergency is declared by Kalamazoo County officials.