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Why should we support the troops?


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Like Pavlovian poodles, even liberals have been cowed into trumpeting obediently, "I support the troops!" To their credit, many of them question WHY they should support the troops. Unfortunately, few have enough brain power to really figure it out.

Let's list some possible reasons for supporting U.S. military forces in Iraq and Afghanistan:

1. They're American. Using this logic, if an American tourist murders someone in Barcelona, I should support him just because he's American. No thanks.

2. They're liberating Iraq. Uh, no. They're liberating Iraqis of their lives.

3. They're protecting America. Actually, they're putting America in far greater danger.

4. They're protecting our civil liberties. In fact, George Bush is frantically attacking the troops' civil liberties while they're away in Iraq.

5. It's the patriotic thing to do. There's nothing patriot about stupidity.

In fact, it's the P word that really pushes me over the edge. Discussion of PATRIOTISM in connection with Iraq trivializes the whole affair. We've launched an illegal war, probably killing over 100,000 civilians, losing allies right and left while recruiting more terrorists, encouraging Iran and other nations to arm themselves with nuclear weapons, costing us tens of billions of dollars, letting sadistic torturers further drag us through the mud, and on and ond... and this mess has something to do with PATRIOTISM?

No two wars are the same. Philosophically speaking, no war may be good, but America's involvement in World War II was a helluva lot nobler than its sleazy rape of Iraq. If our standards have fallen so low that we regard murder, torture and rape as patriotic, then we are one sick nation.

I do not support the troops. I support Iraqi patriots. They have far more in common with the Minutemen who entered the history books at Lexington and Concord than do the heavily armored forces who fight for Team Exxon.

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2. They're liberating Iraq. Uh, no. They're liberating Iraqis of their lives.

3. They're protecting America. Actually, they're putting America in far greater danger.

4. They're protecting our civil liberties. In fact, George Bush is frantically attacking the troops' civil liberties while they're away in Iraq.

'They' are following orders. They don't establish US foreign policy. Regardless of the net effect of their actions I see no reason to believe they are not, individually, well intentioned.

Your contention against the troops on all those grounds are actually issues to take up with the government not the troops.

1. They're American. Using this logic, if an American tourist murders someone in Barcelona, I should support him just because he's American. No thanks.

Not analagous. US soldiers, broadly speaking, are perceived to have joined in order to serve their nations and risk their lives doing it. That can hardly be perceived in the same way as an individual committing murder.

5. It's the patriotic thing to do. There's nothing patriot about stupidity

I agree with you on this point. Patriotism has been used as a tool to manipulate.

We've launched an illegal war, probably killing over 100,000 civilians

This figure is bogus. It has been discredited in another thread which you can read here

Be cautious making assertions regarding the illegality of the war. There are some posters here who will rip into that claim.

Philosophically speaking, no war may be good

I agree with that. War is a terrible thing. It marks, ultimately, a failure in humanity to evolve.

I do not support the troops.

It doesn't have to be that black and white. You can oppose their cause without opposing them.

I support Iraqi patriots.

Which Iraqi's are those? There are several factions with different views and goals.

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'They' are following orders. They don't establish US foreign policy. Regardless of the net effect of their actions I see no reason to believe they are not, individually, well intentioned.

There's a limit to "good intentions." If someone blows my house up, killing my family, I'm not going to feel much happier if they tell me they only had the best intentions.

Moreover, many troops do not have good intentions. I can't possibly guess what percentage, but I suspect it could easily be over ten percent. Let's face, there are a lot of sick, twisted people in America - bigots, nationalists, jingoists, religious kooks - and many of them wind up in the military.

And I'm just talking about UNIFORMED personnel. If you include the army of corporate mercenaries we've shipped to Iraq - classic dogs of war - the situation is even more horrendous.

Your contention against the troops on all those grounds are actually issues to take up with the government not the troops.

And since Americans don't have a clue about voting, one way to take it up with the government is to not support its troops.

Not analagous. US soldiers, broadly speaking, are perceived to have joined in order to serve their nations and risk their lives doing it.

That's the perception, but it isn't necessarily true. Many join because they need the money. Some join because they like to kill.

Be cautious making assertions regarding the illegality of the war. There are some posters here who will rip into that claim.

Bring'em on!

I support Iraqi patriots.
Which Iraqi's are those? There are several factions with different views and goals.

I generally support anyone who's fighting to avenge the death of a loved one or the destruction of their home or anyone who's fighting to liberate their country from Haliburton.

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If someone blows my house up, killing my family, I'm not going to feel much happier if they tell me they only had the best intentions.

I'll take a punt here and guess that nobody has blown up your house. Theres no reason for you to lose your objectivity. I can understand your empathy for those that endure loss but to lose your objectivity is to lose a part of your vision.

Moreover, many troops do not have good intentions. I can't possibly guess what percentage, but I suspect it could easily be over ten percent. Let's face, there are a lot of sick, twisted people in America - bigots, nationalists, jingoists, religious kooks - and many of them wind up in the military.

Thats as true of Iraq, or any other nation, as it is of the US. There will be men in the militia who are sick and twisted and like killing.

Broadly speaking armies do what they are ordered to do. Your problems still reside with the Government.

And since Americans don't have a clue about voting, one way to take it up with the government is to not support its troops.

Hows that achieve anything? Why not organise rallies, networks, lobby groups whatever to directly influence the government. The troops, I say again, are not responsible for US foreign policy so where is the logic in what you are suggesting?

That's the perception, but it isn't necessarily true. Many join because they need the money. Some join because they like to kill.

Thats irrelevant. I was explaining why the general public would not regard some individual murderer and a soldier to be the same.

I generally support anyone who's fighting to avenge the death of a loved one or the destruction of their home or anyone who's fighting to liberate their country from Haliburton.

Since alot of people erroneously believe in the link between Al Quaeda (which I can never remember how to spell) and Iraq then they will believe they are doing EXACTLY that (excepting the Haliburton part - on which I won't comment). A large portion of the coalition forces will be genuinely trying to do their job - which they perceive as beneficial to the US and to Iraq - even if they are, arguably, mistaken. I don't think that can be discounted. In addition to which not all of the death and damage can be laid completely at the door of the coalition. You seem to me almost to be looking at this from one side only.

I DO NOT support the foreign policy of the US government and Bush but I do support the troops that are in there and I don't agree that I've been 'been cowed into trumpeting obediently, "I support the troops!"'.

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I DO NOT support the foreign policy of the US government and Bush but I do support the troops that are in there and I don't agree that I've been 'been cowed into trumpeting obediently, "I support the troops!"'

I support the troops inasmuch as I think they should return home. So long as they are the insturments of a colonial occupation and imperialist foreign policy, I believe they are legitimate targets.

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Perhaps I should make myself clearer.

When I say I support the troops this is what I mean: I will not hold them accountable for government policy or actions. I will not malign them or direct my opposition toward them but rather toward the government. Whatever my perception of the morality of the governments policies I will not extend that value judgement toward the soldiers. I will not attribute blame for the situation in Iraq on them. I acknowledge that they are serving their conuntry with their lives. I will respect that.

I don't mean that I support their presence or the fighting or that I believe they should be sacrosanct when engaged with the enemy. You said, Black Dog, that they are legitimate targets. I won't argue that its wrong for people to fire back.

I think thats a bit clearer.

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The troops have entrusted their lives to the state. It is the moral obligation of the citizens of the state to support them by insisting and ensuring that:

-the government train, arm and supply them properly;

-appropriate effort and resources are dedicated to protect their health and human dignity;

-they be exposed only to risks commensurate with the imperatives of their objectives, and no unnecessary risk be imposed by negligence of the government or the military leadership;

-each soldier be treated fairly within the terms of military propriety; and

-they never be commanded to participate in criminality or dishonourable conduct.

Support the troops. Bring them home.

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If someone blows my house up, killing my family, I'm not going to feel much happier if they tell me they only had the best intentions.

I'll take a punt here and guess that nobody has blown up your house. Theres no reason for you to lose your objectivity. I can understand your empathy for those that endure loss but to lose your objectivity is to lose a part of your vision.

Moreover, many troops do not have good intentions. I can't possibly guess what percentage, but I suspect it could easily be over ten percent. Let's face, there are a lot of sick, twisted people in America - bigots, nationalists, jingoists, religious kooks - and many of them wind up in the military.

Thats as true of Iraq, or any other nation, as it is of the US. There will be men in the militia who are sick and twisted and like killing.

Broadly speaking armies do what they are ordered to do. Your problems still reside with the Government.

And since Americans don't have a clue about voting, one way to take it up with the government is to not support its troops.

Hows that achieve anything? Why not organise rallies, networks, lobby groups whatever to directly influence the government. The troops, I say again, are not responsible for US foreign policy so where is the logic in what you are suggesting?

That's the perception, but it isn't necessarily true. Many join because they need the money. Some join because they like to kill.

Thats irrelevant. I was explaining why the general public would not regard some individual murderer and a soldier to be the same.

I generally support anyone who's fighting to avenge the death of a loved one or the destruction of their home or anyone who's fighting to liberate their country from Haliburton.

Since alot of people erroneously believe in the link between Al Quaeda (which I can never remember how to spell) and Iraq then they will believe they are doing EXACTLY that (excepting the Haliburton part - on which I won't comment). A large portion of the coalition forces will be genuinely trying to do their job - which they perceive as beneficial to the US and to Iraq - even if they are, arguably, mistaken. I don't think that can be discounted. In addition to which not all of the death and damage can be laid completely at the door of the coalition. You seem to me almost to be looking at this from one side only.

I DO NOT support the foreign policy of the US government and Bush but I do support the troops that are in there and I don't agree that I've been 'been cowed into trumpeting obediently, "I support the troops!"'.

If someone blows my house up, killing my family, I'm not going to feel much happier if they tell me they only had the best intentions.
I'll take a punt here and guess that nobody has blown up your house. Theres no reason for you to lose your objectivity. I can understand your empathy for those that endure loss but to lose your objectivity is to lose a part of your vision.

I say people whose homes have been destroyed have a right to fight back, therefore I've lost my objectivity? No, I'll stick to my guns on this one. Anyone who wants to know how strongly I feel about it should come blow up my house.

Moreover, many troops do not have good intentions. I can't possibly guess what percentage, but I suspect it could easily be over ten percent. Let's face, there are a lot of sick, twisted people in America - bigots, nationalists, jingoists, religious kooks - and many of them wind up in the military.
Thats as true of Iraq, or any other nation, as it is of the US. There will be men in the militia who are sick and twisted and like killing.

There are norms, and there's Team Exxon. There are lots of twisted people in America, jingoistic rednecks who have been raised on propaganda and believe Muslims are America's spiritual enemy. People who have been raised on corporate greed and see nothing wrong with gunning foreign citizens down for oil. We didn't have an army of corporate mercenaries during World War II, nor was torture military policy. Our new privatized military is sick.

Broadly speaking armies do what they are ordered to do. Your problems still reside with the Government.

The ultimate blame lies with the people who elect that government and with the corporations that control that government. But the military also plays a role - it carries out the government's orders, right or wrong, and I do not support wrong.

And since Americans don't have a clue about voting, one way to take it up with the government is to not support its troops.
Hows that achieve anything? Why not organise rallies, networks, lobby groups whatever to directly influence the government.

I can do better than that. I've been a whistle-blower for years. I've even run for public office. Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to accomplish anything in a nation as corrupt and apathetic as the U.S. What good are rallies when the media won't even report on them? Network with whom - the corrupt Democratic or Green Party? The corrupt Libertarian Party? My corrupt union?

That's the perception, but it isn't necessarily true. Many join because they need the money. Some join because they like to kill.
Thats irrelevant. I was explaining why the general public would not regard some individual murderer and a soldier to be the same.

I don't care what the "sheeple" think. They've proven themselves incapable of operating a functional democracy.

In addition to which not all of the death and damage can be laid completely at the door of the coalition. You seem to me almost to be looking at this from one side only.

Of course, atrocities have been committed by both sides. But WE STARTED IT. Terrorism wouldn't be rampant in Iraq if we hadn't illegally invaded the nation for oil.

Moreover, I don't have a lot of control over what Iraqis and other foreign nationals do. Theoretically, I DO have some control over U.S. troops. As a voter, as a participating member of what's supposed to be a democracy, I have a right and a duty to exert some influence over the military.

Saying "I support the troops" ultimately plays into George Bush's hands. That's exactly what Republicans - and corporations - want people to say. They want us to jump on the bandwagon, even if we're only surrendering to peer pressure or fuzzy thinking.

I do not support the troops in Iraq. They are committing murder and treason on a scale that's hard to comprehend.

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I don't think the 100,000 figure has been shown to be bogus: in fact, it may be conservative.

The figure is for excess deaths while the actual count of violent deaths - as far as that can be measured in such a situation is in excess of 16,000.

The lower figure is for direct deaths attritubable to military action. It does not include the great number who die from disease; from starvation; from the breakdown of sanitation and all services.

All these things lead to deaths on a scale exceeding that from bombs and bullets. All these things are a consequence of the invasion and there has been little real attempt to restore services or to provide medical supplies and food.

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There are norms, and there's Team Exxon. There are lots of twisted people in America, jingoistic rednecks who have been raised on propaganda and believe Muslims are America's spiritual enemy. People who have been raised on corporate greed and see nothing wrong with gunning foreign citizens down for oil. We didn't have an army of corporate mercenaries during World War II, nor was torture military policy. Our new privatized military is sick.

What do you say to Muslims who think Americans are the 'spiritual enemy'? Or are they justified because they're non-Christian? Maybe our troops should start going around and chop some heads off in the name of Jesus Christ!

And the countries that sell contracts to our oil companies to drill overseas... Were we holding a gun to their head? Sounds like Muslim governments sold their people out! Then the UN steals from them!

The ultimate blame lies with the people who elect that government and with the corporations that control that government. But the military also plays a role - it carries out the government's orders, right or wrong, and I do not support wrong.

Are you talking about the French or the UN as a collective whole?

I can do better than that. I've been a whistle-blower for years. I've even run for public office. Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to accomplish anything in a nation as corrupt and apathetic as the U.S. What good are rallies when the media won't even report on them? Network with whom - the corrupt Democratic or Green Party? The corrupt Libertarian Party? My corrupt union?

You gotta have the "bling, bling" to get any respect these days!!

I don't care what the "sheeple" think. They've proven themselves incapable of operating a functional democracy.

Are you talking about the Democrats who pumped millions and millions of dollars into a dying campaign & message that no one heard? (Hollywood got the message)

Of course, atrocities have been committed by both sides. But WE STARTED IT. Terrorism wouldn't be rampant in Iraq if we hadn't illegally invaded the nation for oil.

Oil in which the world uses, but holds the U.S. accountable for taking the lid off. So what if the Bush family made a deal a hundred years ago with the Saudi's! Still does not justify terrorism. Maybe the princes should have shared the wealth with their fellow citizens.

Saying "I support the troops" ultimately plays into George Bush's hands. That's exactly what Republicans - and corporations - want people to say. They want us to jump on the bandwagon, even if we're only surrendering to peer pressure or fuzzy thinking.

How so? I just think it's common decency to support the men & women over there, regardless of one's opinion about our government and handling of the situation. I know many who are or have already served over there who are against the war, but had a job to do, and just sucked it up like a man and woman! It's the sad, self serving people like yourself why nobody listens to you and why the media would not report on your 'rally'!

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There are norms, and there's Team Exxon. There are lots of twisted people in America, jingoistic rednecks who have been raised on propaganda and believe Muslims are America's spiritual enemy. People who have been raised on corporate greed and see nothing wrong with gunning foreign citizens down for oil. We didn't have an army of corporate mercenaries during World War II, nor was torture military policy. Our new privatized military is sick.

What do you say to Muslims who think Americans are the 'spiritual enemy'? Or are they justified because they're non-Christian? Maybe our troops should start going around and chop some heads off in the name of Jesus Christ!

And the countries that sell contracts to our oil companies to drill overseas... Were we holding a gun to their head? Sounds like Muslim governments sold their people out! Then the UN steals from them!

The ultimate blame lies with the people who elect that government and with the corporations that control that government. But the military also plays a role - it carries out the government's orders, right or wrong, and I do not support wrong.

Are you talking about the French or the UN as a collective whole?

I can do better than that. I've been a whistle-blower for years. I've even run for public office. Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to accomplish anything in a nation as corrupt and apathetic as the U.S. What good are rallies when the media won't even report on them? Network with whom - the corrupt Democratic or Green Party? The corrupt Libertarian Party? My corrupt union?

You gotta have the "bling, bling" to get any respect these days!!

I don't care what the "sheeple" think. They've proven themselves incapable of operating a functional democracy.

Are you talking about the Democrats who pumped millions and millions of dollars into a dying campaign & message that no one heard? (Hollywood got the message)

Of course, atrocities have been committed by both sides. But WE STARTED IT. Terrorism wouldn't be rampant in Iraq if we hadn't illegally invaded the nation for oil.

Oil in which the world uses, but holds the U.S. accountable for taking the lid off. So what if the Bush family made a deal a hundred years ago with the Saudi's! Still does not justify terrorism. Maybe the princes should have shared the wealth with their fellow citizens.

Saying "I support the troops" ultimately plays into George Bush's hands. That's exactly what Republicans - and corporations - want people to say. They want us to jump on the bandwagon, even if we're only surrendering to peer pressure or fuzzy thinking.

How so? I just think it's common decency to support the men & women over there, regardless of one's opinion about our government and handling of the situation. I know many who are or have already served over there who are against the war, but had a job to do, and just sucked it up like a man and woman! It's the sad, self serving people like yourself why nobody listens to you and why the media would not report on your 'rally'!

BigDookie6 wrote...

What do you say to Muslims who think Americans are the 'spiritual enemy'?

Why, I could say many things! Here are a few examples:

1) Gee, you remind me so much of America's Christian kooks!

2) Why don't you join your fellow citizens who hate America for more practical reasons?

3) Why should I waste my time with you when there are so many innocent civilians being killed, not all of them religious kooks?

Or are they justified because they're non-Christian?

No, they're justified because we invaded their countries.

Maybe our troops should start going around and chop some heads off in the name of Jesus Christ!

Maybe our troops should get out of Iraq and come home so they can answer your stupid questions.

And the countries that sell contracts to our oil companies to drill overseas... Were we holding a gun to their head?

Are you talking about countries with corrupt governments that don't represent their people? Are you talking about U.S. puppet governments, like Saddam Hussein?

So what if the Bush family made a deal a hundred years ago with the Saudi's! Still does not justify terrorism. Maybe the princes should have shared the wealth with their fellow citizens.

What goes around comes around.

I just think it's common decency to support the men & women over there, regardless of one's opinion about our government and handling of the situation.

I think it's common decency to support the victims. I support the rape victim, you the rapist.

I know many who are or have already served over there who are against the war, but had a job to do, and just sucked it up like a man and woman! It's the sad, self serving people like yourself why nobody listens to you and why the media would not report on your 'rally'!

Right, murdering people - it's more than a job!

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BD6:

What do you say to Muslims who think Americans are the 'spiritual enemy'?

Maplebear wrote:

Why, I could say many things! Here are a few examples:

1) Gee, you remind me so much of America's Christian kooks!

2) Why don't you join your fellow citizens who hate America for more practical reasons?

3) Why should I waste my time with you when there are so many innocent civilians being killed, not all of them religious kooks?

1.) Thanks, but I'm not religious.

2.) I'm a "nationalist"... The backbone of the world; not just America!

3.) Let me "enlighten" you: It's the religious kooks (Islamic Fascists) that are killing innocent civilians. And you are too affraid to challenge them.

BD6:

Or are they justified because they're non-Christian?

MB:

No, they're justified because we invaded their countries.

Muslims are invading Europe & America and they are welcomed and embraced. Funny how you deem America (basically ALL of the Western world) as "evil" but fail to convince any of the immigrants who flee the countries we invade. They're still pounding the free world's door to get in to such a horrible country as you see it!

BD6:

And the countries that sell contracts to our oil companies to drill overseas... Were we holding a gun to their head?

MB:

Are you talking about countries with corrupt governments that don't represent their people? Are you talking about U.S. puppet governments, like Saddam Hussein?

You got one right! Yep! We did put Sadaam into power. We were also allies with Afghan Jihadists during the Soviet invasion. But things change! Todays ally might become tomorrows enemy. But we didn't train them to kill their own people or to fly planes into buildings or to kill innocent people while they committ suicide. Should we bring Jimmy Carter up on "War crime" charges? He's still alive.

You continue to support the rapist, and I'll continue to support our troops, the invasion, the War on Terror, the Fallujah invasion and the Marine who shot the unarmed Iraqi... One last thing... Thank God, Yasser Arafat (Rat) is dead!

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3.) Let me "enlighten" you: It's the religious kooks (Islamic Fascists) that are killing innocent civilians. And you are too affraid to challenge them.

More precisely, they're helping Americans kill civilians.

Muslims are invading Europe & America and they are welcomed and embraced.

They aren't "invading" the way we are.

Funny how you deem America (basically ALL of the Western world) as "evil" but fail to convince any of the immigrants who flee the countries we invade. They're still pounding the free world's door to get in to such a horrible country as you see it!

1. We have money.

2. The pounding is growing fainter as America becomes less attractive. Even some U.S. citizens are opting for new lives farther away from our Fuhrer.

Todays ally might become tomorrows enemy. But we didn't train them to kill their own people or to fly planes into buildings or to kill innocent people while they committ suicide.

Right, we only gave weaons to people who were already well known thugs.

One last thing... Thank God, Yasser Arafat (Rat) is dead!

Let's hope George W. Bush gets SARS.

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