Charges finally laid in the Ontario Gas Plant Scandal

waldo · December 28, 2015

McGuinty than ran to the U.S. to hide.

cite?

Boges · December 28, 2015

don't you mean the 'alleged' email deletion... on local computers? Are you "rushing to judgement"? As for your, "perhaps Harper did", care to offer your comment on just when Harper will quit (now that the Duffy defense rested)... surely you can't believe Harper will stay on through to the next election - surely!

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Dunno Stephan Dion is still an MP. Election defeat doesn't mean you need to quit does it. PET became PM after a defeat. Not that I'm saying Harper will do that, but why does he have to concede his seat?

Thread drift though.

I hardly think these charges are a rush to judgement. We'll see what happens but I think you're the only person in Canada that defends the Ontario Liberals on the Gas Plant scandal. Even Kathleen Wynne has admitted that things weren't done properly. Not sure why you won't concede to that.

waldo · December 28, 2015

Not that I'm saying Harper will do that, but why does he have to concede his seat?

oh pleeese! The guy goes from 'head cheese for 10 years' to 'going through the motions'... do you actually see Harper sitting on committees? He's not even an official critic for any ministry. Do you see Harper as a lowly backbencher... once in a while showing up to cast an insignificant minority vote? Who thought Harper would actually stay on... not quit/retire after such a devastating loss to his arch-nemesis, the Liberal Party of Canada and the "not ready Trudeau"?

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I hardly think these charges are a rush to judgement. We'll see what happens but I think you're the only person in Canada that defends the Ontario Liberals on the Gas Plant scandal. Even Kathleen Wynne has admitted that things weren't done properly. Not sure why you won't concede to that.

when the 2 defendants claim they didn't do it and the onus is on the Crown to make the case... you are rushing to judgement. You keep saying the same thing - I keep replying I'm not defending anyone/any party. Apparently, to you, bringing facts/perspective forward is "defending". And here I thought the other thread settled all this. Have you guys had enough, or are you thirsty for more? :lol:

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Ash74 · December 28, 2015

cite?

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2013/06/28/dalton_mcguinty_headed_to_harvard_for_prestigious_fellowship.html

He than immediately returned after Wynne took the last provincial election.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/dalton-mcguinty-joining-pwc-canada/article22558686/

Boges · December 28, 2015

oh pleeese! The guy goes from 'head cheese for 10 years' to 'going through the motions'... do you actually see Harper sitting on committees? He's not even an official critic for any ministry. Do you see Harper as a lowly backbencher... once in a while showing up to cast an insignificant minority vote? Who thought Harper would actually stay on... not quit/retire after such a devastating loss to his arch-nemesis, the Liberal Party of Canada and the "not ready Trudeau"?

Why do you care?

when the 2 defendants claim they didn't do it and the onus is on the Crown to make the case... you are rushing to judgement. You keep saying the same thing - I keep replying I'm not defending anyone/any party. Apparently, to you, bringing facts/perspective forward is "defending". And here I thought the other thread settled all this. Have you guys had enough, or are you thirsty for more?

So reporting that the charges have finally been laid is not big news? These aren't low level staffers that are being taken to court. It was pretty big news here in Ontario. The OPP must have some evidence to justify charges going forward.

As you say, the Ontario Liberals were elected in 2014 so not much political hay can be made over this.

The stalemate we appear to be on is that you believe that the oppositions willingness to cancel the plants absolves the Liberals of all blame. It ignores the fact that the Opposition didn't get a say in where these plants would go in the first place and didn't ignore the protests that took place. The Liberals accused opponents of these plants of being NIMBY's, so the flip-flop accompanied by the cost to the government's coffers appears to be political opportunism. Also in the case of the MIssissauga plant, they actually start building the plant and cancelled it during an election campaign.

It would be interesting to read e-mails that shed some light in how they came about making such a costly decision.

waldo · December 28, 2015

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2013/06/28/dalton_mcguinty_headed_to_harvard_for_prestigious_fellowship.html

He than immediately returned after Wynne took the last provincial election.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/dalton-mcguinty-joining-pwc-canada/article22558686/

how desperate are you? Is taking a temporary 4 month 2013 fall semester assignment... while moving from Toronto to Ottawa, as you say, "running away"? Whatever implication you're trying to make with the June 2014 Liberal election win, that PWC appointment was 6 months after that... is that your "immediately returned"? Returned from where - Ottawa? :lol:

waldo · December 28, 2015

Why do you care?

you keep replying - why do you care?

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So reporting that the charges have finally been laid is not big news?

well this is an improvement - we're making progress. Charges laid for alleged "mischief" wrong-doing. Good on ya for not rushing to judgement this time!

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The stalemate we appear to be on is that you believe that the oppositions willingness to cancel the plants absolves the Liberals of all blame.

pointing out that both Opposition parties were for the cancellations..... before they were against them, why... that's just gold Gerry, real gold! And, again, one plant was cancelled a full year prior to the election; the other was clearly a measure taken to respond to the significant public protest. Apparently, your position is that the government should have ignored the protests and not looked for an alternative location. If there is any "blame" as you seem so resolute in attaching, it would be around the original location choices... something, as I recall, has never been discussed through any of these like threads you keep YOU keep bringing forward.

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It would be interesting to read e-mails that shed some light in how they came about making such a costly decision.

your premise is that the supposed emails don't exist anymore. I'm inclined to believe they do exist... on central email server(s) and/or on requisite backups taken. I mean, if they don't exist anywhere... what reference point does the Crown have to draw upon and make its case? To me, the Crown case must prove both the involvement of the persons charged as well as the alleged actions taken by said persons.

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Boges · December 28, 2015

you keep replying - why do you care?

Because you bring it up in an unrelated thread.

pointing out that both Opposition parties were for the cancellations..... before they were against them, why... that's just gold Gerry, real gold! And, again, one plant was cancelled a full year prior to the election; the other was clearly a measure taken to respond to the significant public protest. Apparently, your position is that the government should have ignored the protests and not looked for an alternative location. If there is any "blame" as you seem so resolute in attaching, it would be around the original location choices... something, as I recall, has never been discussed through any of these like threads you keep YOU keep bringing forward.

The rub is that they did ignore the protests until it was politically convenient, at a great cost to the province. I guess if I was in charge and had all the information they had, I wouldn't have decided to build gas-fired power plants in high-density residential areas, there must have been more appealing options. But that's hindsight now. AND current premiere Wynne has admitted it was a mistake. So you do question her judgement?

your premise is that the supposed emails don't exist anymore. I'm inclined to believe they do exist... on central email server(s) and/or on requisite backups taken. I mean, if they don't exist anywhere... what reference point does the Crown have to draw upon and make its case? To me, the Crown case must prove both the involvement of the persons charged as well as the alleged actions taken by said persons.

That'll come out in court I suppose. And they'll be subject to a FOI request. You're the only person I've heard suggesting this though. Do you have a cite for this theory?

But that doesn't ignore their intent to delete the e-mails in the first place.

Ash74 · December 28, 2015

how desperate are you? Is taking a temporary 4 month 2013 fall semester assignment... while moving from Toronto to Ottawa, as you say, "running away"? Whatever implication you're trying to make with the June 2014 Liberal election win, that PWC appointment was 6 months after that... is that your "immediately returned"? Returned from where - Ottawa?

I ask the same.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/dalton+mcguinty+where/8506033/story.html

What is the difference?

Where is your rage and venom that you show for Harper?

waldo · December 28, 2015

Because you bring it up in an unrelated thread.

no - the other guy brought it up with his "pot/kettle" play.

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That'll come out in court I suppose. And they'll be subject to a FOI request. You're the only person I've heard suggesting this though. Do you have a cite for this theory?

FOI? Theory? What the hell are you talking about? I said "I'm inclined to believe" - a belief that reflects upon understanding that large scale government/corporate email systems typically store emails at both a server and local computer level.

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But that doesn't ignore their intent to delete the e-mails in the first place.

hey now! And here I thought we had dispensed with your "rush to judgement"?

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Boges · December 28, 2015

no - the other guy brought it up with his "pot/kettle" play.

Regarding the fact that people had a rush to judgement about Harper's involvement in the Duffy affair not question why Harper didn't concede his seat immediately after the election.

FOI? Theory? What the hell are you talking about? I said "I'm inclined to believe" - a belief that reflects upon understanding that large scale government/corporate email systems typically store emails at both a server and local computer level.

hey now! And here I thought we had dispensed with your "rush to judgement"?

It was the Privacy Commissioner that brought this issue to light. How is that a partisan rush to judgement?

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2013/06/05/ontario_power_plant_cancellations_top_liberals_illegally_deleted_emails_privacy_commissioner_says.html

And if the e-mail do exist then wouldn't the Liberals find them and release them to avoid these charges?

waldo · December 28, 2015

I ask the same.

What is the difference?

Where is your rage and venom that you show for Harper?

rage/venom? Get a grip! One difference... one key/significant difference is the guy didn't lose an election - he stepped down. After the legislature was prorogued and the leadership campaign finished, McGuinty held his MPP seat for 4 months, then retired. Hey, are you suggesting Harper will last a similar 4 months (now that he can't be called as a Duffy trial witness) - is that what you're implying? :lol:

waldo · December 28, 2015

It was the Privacy Commissioner that brought this issue to light. How is that a partisan rush to judgement?

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2013/06/05/ontario_power_plant_cancellations_top_liberals_illegally_deleted_emails_privacy_commissioner_says.html

And if the e-mail do exist then wouldn't the Liberals find them and release them to avoid these charges?

I said it was your and your compatriot's rush to judgement in regards the court proceedings... as for your latest reference, per your own link, try again; try harder:

“While I cannot state with certainty that there was an inappropriate deletion of emails … it is difficult to escape that conclusion,” Cavoukian wrote.

Boges · December 28, 2015

The recent criminal charges appears to have validated her "conclusion".

Again, if the e-mails weren't deleted, then why haven't they been released?

We will have to wait until the trial and there isn't an election on the horizon like with the Duffy affair so not a lot of hay can be made about this. Wynne can continue to distract the fact that Ontario has the largest debt of any sub-soverign juristiction by doing things like allowing beer in grocery stores and stuff like that.

Closer to the 2018 election this may become an issue again but I think the impressiveness or not of PC leader Patrick Brown will be a more important issue.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Boges

Ash74 · December 28, 2015

rage/venom? Get a grip! One difference... one key/significant difference is the guy didn't lose an election - he stepped down. After the legislature was prorogued and the leadership campaign finished, McGuinty held his MPP seat for 4 months, then retired. Hey, are you suggesting Harper will last a similar 4 months (now that he can't be called as a Duffy trial witness) - is that what you're implying?

You did notice that he was elected to be an MP?

I do not know how long Harper will stick around or really care. He is after all a politician and as you pointed out he does not need the money.

As far as Wynne being so upstanding

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/opp-seizes-ex-mcguinty-staffers-email-records-after-executing-search-warrant-at-ontario-government-it-office

You know she is the one who stated it was politics that closed down the plants right before the election to save some seats.

The opposition parties were not the ones that put the plants there.

McGuinty stated he found out about them after the building had started.

So he is either lying (He is famous for it) or incompetent (also famous for being guilty of that). Take your pick and feel free to post any excuses you wish

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2015/11/21/dalton-mcguinty-says-moving-gas-plants-was-the-right-thing-to-do.html

Edited December 28, 2015 by Ash74

waldo · December 28, 2015

You did notice that he was elected to be an MP?

I do not know how long Harper will stick around or really care. He is after all a politician and as you pointed out he does not need the money.

with your 'pot-kettle' nonsense, you were the one who initiated this discussion point... apparently you did care.

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As far as Wynne being so upstanding

Wynne upstanding... now you're deflecting the thread further... no one has been discussing the merits of Wynne.

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You know she is the one who stated it was politics that closed down the plants right before the election to save some seats.

The opposition parties were not the ones that put the plants there.

please... if you only take one thing from this thread... one of the plants was closed/canceled a full year prior to the election. Please adjust your talking point accordingly. Along with recognizing the Opposition parties did support the cancellations. Good to know you favoured the plants staying open... where they were... and could care less about the significant public protest against them.

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Boges · December 28, 2015

please... if you only take one thing from this thread... one of the plants was closed/canceled a full year prior to the election. Please adjust your talking point accordingly. Along with recognizing the Opposition parties did support the cancellations. Good to know you favoured the plants staying open... where they were... and could care less about the significant public protest against them.

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I'm sorry but the fact that the Oakville plant was cancelled a year earlier is irrelevant. It was most certainly a political decision.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/why-kevin-flynn-cant-stop-the-oakville-gas-plant/article4316784/

Mr. Flynn can't afford for the plant to be built - not if he has much hope of getting re-elected under the Liberal banner in next year's provincial election.

But for all his efforts, it's likely that Mr. Flynn will run into a brick wall. Because it's hard to imagine how Mr. McGuinty could afford for the plant notto be built.

To effectively overrule the Ontario Power Authority - which considered several locations in the southwestern part of the Greater Toronto Area, and settled on this one - would set a precedent that would create a whole new set of problems for Mr. McGuinty. In fact, it would pose major problems for a very large chunk of his policy agenda.

Being out west you probably aren't aware that Oakville is home to some of the richest people in the country. They lobbied hard to get the plant cancelled. The MPP from that riding would have been toast had the plant started construction.

waldo · December 29, 2015

I'm sorry but the fact that the Oakville plant was cancelled a year earlier is irrelevant. It was most certainly a political decision.

when is anything politicians do, a political party engages in... not political, not a political decision? The point being made was in regards to the many times claimed statements that the plants were cancelled just before the election to attempt to ensure seats. Pointing out that one of those plants was cancelled a full year prior to the election... that both Opposition parties also supported the cancellations, well... that's just adding proper perspective and accuracy - yes?

Smoke · December 29, 2015

please... if you only take one thing from this thread... one of the plants was closed/canceled a full year prior to the election. Please adjust your talking point accordingly. Along with recognizing the Opposition parties did support the cancellations. Good to know you favoured the plants staying open... where they were... and could care less about the significant public protest against them.

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Ohhhh! You mean like how Wynne is putting up wind turbines in rural areas where people don't want them?

waldo · December 29, 2015

Ohhhh! You mean like how Wynne is putting up wind turbines in rural areas where people don't want them?

a significant level of protest has been addressed - in regards proper setbacks, claims of health and noise impacts have no scientific foundation. But ya, I agree with you that Ontario should get busy with that offshore wind file!

Edited December 29, 2015 by waldo

Boges · December 29, 2015

That both Opposition parties also supported the cancellations, well... that's just adding proper perspective and accuracy - yes?

Do you have evidence they supported the original location of the plants? The outrage isn't the actual cancellation of the plants but the extraordinary cancellation costs.

It did end up forcing Dalton McGuinty to quit mid-term.

waldo · December 29, 2015

Do you have evidence they supported the original location of the plants? The outrage isn't the actual cancellation of the plants but the extraordinary cancellation costs.

and here I thought we had dealt with your cost related fake outrage in the other thread, most pointedly in the context typically thrown around concerning high electricity costs for Ontario consumers: even accepting the 'worst case' analysis done by the Ontario Auditor General, those gas plant cancellations cost the average Ontario consumer a nominal $1.5-to-$2 dollar additional cost for an entire years worth of electrical consumption.

let's have you formally announce your desire to have those closed coal plants opened again... cause that was the driver to the development of the new gas plants. You're a coal proponent, hey!

as for the original location choices, those type of decisions aren't typically made directly by any governments... certainly related environmental impact studies/analysis would be expected, but the technical related decisions are not driven by politicians. For example: the Ontario Power Authority accepted a bid from TransCanada for the Oakville plant - I expect a key driver in determining that location relates to infrastructure costs... simply connecting the plant to the grid and related distribution impacts. If you're really keen on analyzing the OPA's decision making, perhaps invest some of your own fake-outrage time in doing so. I'd suggest starting with the RFP the OPA sent out: Southwest Greater Toronto Area Request for Proposals (SW GTA RFP)... 4 companies responded - be well with your analysis!

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Boges · December 29, 2015

and here I thought we had dealt with your cost related fake outrage in the other thread, most pointedly in the context typically thrown around concerning high electricity costs for Ontario consumers: even accepting the 'worst case' analysis done by the Ontario Auditor General, those gas plant cancellations cost the average Ontario consumer a nominal $1.5-to-$2 dollar additional cost for an entire years worth of electrical consumption.

let's have you formally announce your desire to have those closed coal plants opened again... cause that was the driver to the development of the new gas plants. You're a coal proponent, hey!

as for the original location choices, those type of decisions aren't typically made directly by any governments... certainly related environmental impact studies/analysis would be expected, but the technical related decisions are not driven by politicians. For example: the Ontario Power Authority accepted a bid from TransCanada for the Oakville plant - I expect a key driver in determining that location relates to infrastructure costs... simply connecting the plant to the grid and related distribution impacts. If you're really keen on analyzing the OPA's decision making, perhaps invest some of your own fake-outrage time in doing so. I'd suggest starting with the RFP the OPA sent out: Southwest Greater Toronto Area Request for Proposals (SW GTA RFP)... 4 companies responded - be well with your analysis!

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Who said I support coal? A Natural Fire plant was built off the 401 less than a half hour away from these plants and no one said anything. There are areas close to the GTA but not in residential areas that I'm sure would have been preferable.

I'm sure you see the irony in deciding to build a power plant in a heavily populated area for the ability to use existing infrastructure then pissing all that savings away by cancelling contracts and moving the plants to communities that were hours away from the area of growth identified as a need. It's like there's no middle-ground with this government.

I'm surprised you didn't use the cup of coffee comparison to minimize the cost like the Energy Minister did. You can do that, but it's still an extraordinary waste of money for a government that is mired in debt and deficit.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Boges

waldo · December 29, 2015

irony? the irony I do see/read is you ignoring the point concerning OPA decision making... that the OPA is not the provincial government, and it wasn't the government that recommended original locations or made the decision choices from within RFP bidders.

Boges · December 29, 2015

irony? the irony I do see/read is you ignoring the point concerning OPA decision making... that the OPA is not the provincial government, and it wasn't the government that recommended original locations or made the decision choices from within RFP bidders.

But the Province has the power to cancel the plants, so they bear the responsibility of the decision to locate them there. Especially when McGuinty initially labelled opponents as NIMBYs. Similar to opponents of Wind farms but those people never vote Liberal.